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	<title>Comments on: March Madness</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/15/march-madness/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/15/march-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-148122</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Mar 2006 01:47:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4428#comment-148122</guid>
		<description>The time lag is a problem, but, assuming it could be resolved, I&#039;m relaxed about the idea of lowering admissions standards. I think access to tertiary education should be expanded across the board, so it would be great to push universities to develop teaching approaches that would achieve decent graduation rates for poorly-prepared students.

While my idea would kill off the student-athlete ideal, I don&#039;t (given my non-US background) have any feelings about that. I see athletic scholarships as being desirable as a route for poor students to get into university.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The time lag is a problem, but, assuming it could be resolved, I&#8217;m relaxed about the idea of lowering admissions standards. I think access to tertiary education should be expanded across the board, so it would be great to push universities to develop teaching approaches that would achieve decent graduation rates for poorly-prepared students.</p>

	<p>While my idea would kill off the student-athlete ideal, I don&#8217;t (given my non-US background) have any feelings about that. I see athletic scholarships as being desirable as a route for poor students to get into university.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Mandle</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/15/march-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-148027</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Mandle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Mar 2006 14:50:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4428#comment-148027</guid>
		<description>John - the idea is intriguing, and definitely addresses some real issues, but it has the feel of a let&#039;s-make-the-hypocrisy-explicit proposal. (Which isn&#039;t to say it might not be an improvement.) Schools would then be a position of fielding teams with even less pretense that the athletes are or are expected to be even marginally acceptable students. There still could be admissions standards, I suppose, but - as presented - your proposal would eliminate current minimal eligibility standards. It&#039;s hard to see how schools would be doing something other than just hiring professional teams. And if that&#039;s right, then the players certainly should be paid. I suppose there could be standards for graduating a certain percentage of athletes, but this could only be calculated nearly a decade out, which would be too long to use for meaningful incentives or penalties. 

Bob - Albany has certainly made some bad decisions in the past - including how it handled Classics. (By the way, just the other day, our new provost said she agrees that it was handled poorly.) But it&#039;s just silly to suggest that the administration was casting around for a way to pay for air-conditioning and landed on firing the Classics Department.

The local paper has a &lt;a&gt; story today&lt;/a&gt; suggesting that the basketball team&#039;s success isn&#039;t likely to boost alumni giving much (at least in the short-term) but is likely to increase student applications significantly.

A friend wanted me to help him make picks for his office pool. I wanted to know whether I could pick Albany over UConn in the first game, but then UConn to win the rest of them and go all the way. He wouldn&#039;t let me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>John &#8211; the idea is intriguing, and definitely addresses some real issues, but it has the feel of a let&#8217;s-make-the-hypocrisy-explicit proposal. (Which isn&#8217;t to say it might not be an improvement.) Schools would then be a position of fielding teams with even less pretense that the athletes are or are expected to be even marginally acceptable students. There still could be admissions standards, I suppose, but &#8211; as presented &#8211; your proposal would eliminate current minimal eligibility standards. It&#8217;s hard to see how schools would be doing something other than just hiring professional teams. And if that&#8217;s right, then the players certainly should be paid. I suppose there could be standards for graduating a certain percentage of athletes, but this could only be calculated nearly a decade out, which would be too long to use for meaningful incentives or penalties.</p>

	<p>Bob &#8211; Albany has certainly made some bad decisions in the past &#8211; including how it handled Classics. (By the way, just the other day, our new provost said she agrees that it was handled poorly.) But it&#8217;s just silly to suggest that the administration was casting around for a way to pay for air-conditioning and landed on firing the Classics Department.</p>

	<p>The local paper has a <a> story today</a> suggesting that the basketball team&#8217;s success isn&#8217;t likely to boost alumni giving much (at least in the short-term) but is likely to increase student applications significantly.</p>

	<p>A friend wanted me to help him make picks for his office pool. I wanted to know whether I could pick Albany over UConn in the first game, but then UConn to win the rest of them and go all the way. He wouldn&#8217;t let me.</p>
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		<title>By: 'As you know' Bob</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/15/march-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-147970</link>
		<dc:creator>'As you know' Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Mar 2006 04:37:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4428#comment-147970</guid>
		<description>And I should be sure I close the bold tag after &lt;b&gt; negative&lt;/b&gt;. I wish CT had &quot;preview&quot;.

“But surely, by far the greatest benefit will be the publicity of making it to the tournament.”

I’ve always taken it as given that a reputation as a sports school was a &lt;b&gt;negative&lt;/b&gt; for a serious academic institution.

SUNY-Albany is the school that &lt;i&gt;fired its Classics department&lt;/i&gt; in order to find enough money in its budget to air-condition its gymnasium – in order to prostitute itself to as a training camp for an NFL team.

It really sank in my estimation after that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>And I should be sure I close the bold tag after <b> negative</b>. I wish CT had &#8220;preview&#8221;.</p>

	<p>&#8220;But surely, by far the greatest benefit will be the publicity of making it to the tournament.&#8221;</p>

	<p>I&#8217;ve always taken it as given that a reputation as a sports school was a <b>negative</b> for a serious academic institution.</p>

	<p><span class="caps">SUNY</span>-Albany is the school that <i>fired its Classics department</i> in order to find enough money in its budget to air-condition its gymnasium &#8211; in order to prostitute itself to as a training camp for an <span class="caps">NFL</span> team.</p>

	<p>It really sank in my estimation after that.</p>
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		<title>By: 'As you know' Bob</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/15/march-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-147969</link>
		<dc:creator>'As you know' Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Mar 2006 04:34:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4428#comment-147969</guid>
		<description>&quot;But surely, by far the greatest benefit will be the publicity of making it to the tournament.&quot;

I&#039;ve always taken it as given that a reputation as a sports school was a &lt;b&gt;negative for a serious academic institution.

SUNY-Albany is the school that &lt;i&gt;fired its Classics department&lt;/i&gt; in order to find enough money in its budget to air-condition its gymnasium - in order to prostitute itself to as a training camp for an NFL team.  

It really sank in my estimation after that.&lt;/b&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;But surely, by far the greatest benefit will be the publicity of making it to the tournament.&#8221;</p>

	<p>I&#8217;ve always taken it as given that a reputation as a sports school was a <b>negative for a serious academic institution.</b></p>

	<p><span class="caps">SUNY</span>-Albany is the school that <i>fired its Classics department</i> in order to find enough money in its budget to air-condition its gymnasium &#8211; in order to prostitute itself to as a training camp for an <span class="caps">NFL</span> team.</p>

	<p>It really sank in my estimation after that.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/15/march-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-147958</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Mar 2006 01:16:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4428#comment-147958</guid>
		<description>Jon, I&#039;d be interested in your thoughts on my proposal &lt;a href=&quot;http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/27/academics-and-athletics/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; which is that &lt;blockquote&gt;Colleges should recruit athletes as they do now, but let them defer all their classes for the four(?) years they play for the college team (unless they get cut earlier on). At the end of that time, a minority will make it into the professional leagues and big money, and won’t need a college degree. The rest will no longer have sporting commitments or the illusory hope of sporting riches. At this point, the college should give them their deferred education, with an explicit recognition that they are likely to need more help than the average student.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Jon, I&#8217;d be interested in your thoughts on my proposal <a href="http://crookedtimber.org/2005/04/27/academics-and-athletics/" rel="nofollow">here</a> which is that <blockquote>Colleges should recruit athletes as they do now, but let them defer all their classes for the four(?) years they play for the college team (unless they get cut earlier on). At the end of that time, a minority will make it into the professional leagues and big money, and won&#8217;t need a college degree. The rest will no longer have sporting commitments or the illusory hope of sporting riches. At this point, the college should give them their deferred education, with an explicit recognition that they are likely to need more help than the average student.</blockquote></p>
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		<title>By: Jon Mandle</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/15/march-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-147956</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Mandle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Mar 2006 23:56:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4428#comment-147956</guid>
		<description>These days we&#039;re official the University at Albany. When I arrived, we were SUNY-Albany (aka SUNYA). Albany State was before my time, but a neighbor still calls it that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>These days we&#8217;re official the University at Albany. When I arrived, we were <span class="caps">SUNY</span>-Albany (aka <span class="caps">SUNYA</span>). Albany State was before my time, but a neighbor still calls it that.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/15/march-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-147951</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Mar 2006 23:13:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4428#comment-147951</guid>
		<description>I always thought the name of the school was &quot;SUNY Albany&quot;, or just &quot;SUNY&quot; if it was clear that you were talking about the capital district.

I cheer for the Syracuse Orange, even though I never attended any classes there. I have worked with a couple of professors there, though. Syracuse is the biggest school around.

Caveat: when Jon&#039;s brother was at Colgate, I also cheered somewhat for them too.

And to show you how confused I am, I like both Duke and UNC too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I always thought the name of the school was &#8220;SUNY Albany&#8221;, or just &#8220;SUNY&#8221; if it was clear that you were talking about the capital district.</p>

	<p>I cheer for the Syracuse Orange, even though I never attended any classes there. I have worked with a couple of professors there, though. Syracuse is the biggest school around.</p>

	<p>Caveat: when Jon&#8217;s brother was at Colgate, I also cheered somewhat for them too.</p>

	<p>And to show you how confused I am, I like both Duke and <span class="caps">UNC</span> too.</p>
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		<title>By: Jared</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/15/march-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-147924</link>
		<dc:creator>Jared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Mar 2006 20:07:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4428#comment-147924</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m at Boston College (they&#039;ll play Albany in the Final Four, I&#039;m sure), which is the classic example for the argument that athletic success can be used to raise academic standards by increasing name recognition and attracting more applicants.  It&#039;s called the &quot;Flutie Factor,&quot; but a lot of people &lt;a href=&quot;http://bcm.bc.edu/issues/spring_2003/ll_phenomenology.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;doubt it has much of an effect.&lt;/a&gt;  Short version:  the jump in applications around the time the football team was doing so well seems to be coincidental, and the University was moving towards being a regional rather than a commuter school anyway.  

Graduation rates among athletes are a different matter.  Student-athletes here have access to much more assistance (tutors, progress reports) than most other students.  This is fine; they&#039;re very busy people and any extra help is appreciated.  My point is simply that graduation rates have less to do with how smart the athletes are, and how much they share in the general academic life of the campus (such as it is), than you might think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m at Boston College (they&#8217;ll play Albany in the Final Four, I&#8217;m sure), which is the classic example for the argument that athletic success can be used to raise academic standards by increasing name recognition and attracting more applicants.  It&#8217;s called the &#8220;Flutie Factor,&#8221; but a lot of people <a href="http://bcm.bc.edu/issues/spring_2003/ll_phenomenology.html" rel="nofollow">doubt it has much of an effect.</a>  Short version:  the jump in applications around the time the football team was doing so well seems to be coincidental, and the University was moving towards being a regional rather than a commuter school anyway.</p>

	<p>Graduation rates among athletes are a different matter.  Student-athletes here have access to much more assistance (tutors, progress reports) than most other students.  This is fine; they&#8217;re very busy people and any extra help is appreciated.  My point is simply that graduation rates have less to do with how smart the athletes are, and how much they share in the general academic life of the campus (such as it is), than you might think.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/15/march-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-147898</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Mar 2006 17:24:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4428#comment-147898</guid>
		<description>&quot;The concerns of the University are universal and eternal: sports for the alumni, parking for the faculty, and sex for the undergraduates.&quot; 

--Francis Collins, Director, Human Genome Research Project (University of Virginia commencement address, 2002 IIRC)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;The concerns of the University are universal and eternal: sports for the alumni, parking for the faculty, and sex for the undergraduates.&#8221;<br />
&#8212;Francis Collins, Director, Human Genome Research Project (University of Virginia commencement address, 2002 <span class="caps">IIRC</span>)</p>
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		<title>By: The Unknown Professor</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/15/march-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-147896</link>
		<dc:creator>The Unknown Professor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Mar 2006 17:13:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4428#comment-147896</guid>
		<description>As a UConn alumni (and owner of about a dozen pieces of UConn-branded swag), I&#039;ll be rooting against y&#039;all.  

I was talking once to the MBA director at a previous school.  He noted that the rankings of colleges&#039; business schools were highly correlated with the performance of their football teams.  He thought it had something to do with alumni money - it was easier to put the bite on alumni when going to the game was a treat. 

So, hopefully it will have some positive effect on enrollment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>As a UConn alumni (and owner of about a dozen pieces of UConn-branded swag), I&#8217;ll be rooting against y&#8217;all.</p>

	<p>I was talking once to the <span class="caps">MBA</span> director at a previous school.  He noted that the rankings of colleges&#8217; business schools were highly correlated with the performance of their football teams.  He thought it had something to do with alumni money &#8211; it was easier to put the bite on alumni when going to the game was a treat.</p>

	<p>So, hopefully it will have some positive effect on enrollment.</p>
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		<title>By: Delicious pundit</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/15/march-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-147884</link>
		<dc:creator>Delicious pundit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Mar 2006 15:31:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4428#comment-147884</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s been ages since I lived in the Capital District; back then we called it Albany State.  Too declasse, I guess; I notice that Memphis State (top seed, Oakland Regional) has also given itself the Sting-Bono treatment.

Funny, the next tab on my browser is a review, via Arts &amp; Letters Daily, of &quot;To Hate Like This Is To Be Happy Forever,&quot; about the Duke - UNC rivalry.  As awful/sleazy as college sports are, I often feel bad for enjoying them so much.  But then I suppose you could say the same thing about meat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It&#8217;s been ages since I lived in the Capital District; back then we called it Albany State.  Too declasse, I guess; I notice that Memphis State (top seed, Oakland Regional) has also given itself the Sting-Bono treatment.</p>

	<p>Funny, the next tab on my browser is a review, via Arts &#038; Letters Daily, of &#8220;To Hate Like This Is To Be Happy Forever,&#8221; about the Duke &#8211; <span class="caps">UNC</span> rivalry.  As awful/sleazy as college sports are, I often feel bad for enjoying them so much.  But then I suppose you could say the same thing about meat.</p>
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