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	<title>Comments on: Overheard Conversation</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/26/overheard-conversation/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: aaron</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/26/overheard-conversation/comment-page-2/#comment-149721</link>
		<dc:creator>aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Mar 2006 08:00:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4477#comment-149721</guid>
		<description>You just reminded me of a great point.  We should make sure that serving in the military greatly improves the chance of obtaining citizenship (to close to a guarantee) and speeds up the process.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>You just reminded me of a great point.  We should make sure that serving in the military greatly improves the chance of obtaining citizenship (to close to a guarantee) and speeds up the process.</p>
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		<title>By: Bro. Bartleby</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/26/overheard-conversation/comment-page-2/#comment-149621</link>
		<dc:creator>Bro. Bartleby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Mar 2006 19:52:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4477#comment-149621</guid>
		<description>Wow! Did you see that peace march in Los Angeles over the weekend! Wow, the youth have finally got it together, finally speaking up for their beliefs. I mean, it looked like hundreds of thousands in the pictures. I even had a flashback, this guy in a rubber Nixon mask came at me, good thing I had my ROTC maglite. Ya know, without the draft I was starting to believe that the marchers of the 60s and 70s were just draft dodgers wrapping themselves in a mantle of high ideals, but now that I see all these hundreds of thousands of anti-war marchers, and these kids aren&#039;t subject to the draft, well, it is high ideals after all! My bad. 

Just give peace a chance, is all we are asking,
Bro. Bartleby</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Wow! Did you see that peace march in Los Angeles over the weekend! Wow, the youth have finally got it together, finally speaking up for their beliefs. I mean, it looked like hundreds of thousands in the pictures. I even had a flashback, this guy in a rubber Nixon mask came at me, good thing I had my <span class="caps">ROTC</span> maglite. Ya know, without the draft I was starting to believe that the marchers of the 60s and 70s were just draft dodgers wrapping themselves in a mantle of high ideals, but now that I see all these hundreds of thousands of anti-war marchers, and these kids aren&#8217;t subject to the draft, well, it is high ideals after all! My bad.</p>

	<p>Just give peace a chance, is all we are asking,<br />
Bro. Bartleby</p>
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		<title>By: Martin James</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/26/overheard-conversation/comment-page-2/#comment-149610</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Mar 2006 18:32:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4477#comment-149610</guid>
		<description>Lemuel,

Ah, and what a brave new world it would be if we were actually good at evolutionary psychology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Lemuel,</p>

	<p>Ah, and what a brave new world it would be if we were actually good at evolutionary psychology.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Mandle</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/26/overheard-conversation/comment-page-2/#comment-149609</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Mandle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Mar 2006 18:14:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4477#comment-149609</guid>
		<description>For what it&#039;s worth, when I wrote &quot;so much of the right...&quot; I was thinking of David Horowitz.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>For what it&#8217;s worth, when I wrote &#8220;so much of the right&#8230;&#8221; I was thinking of David Horowitz.</p>
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		<title>By: lemuel pitkin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/26/overheard-conversation/comment-page-2/#comment-149605</link>
		<dc:creator>lemuel pitkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Mar 2006 17:55:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4477#comment-149605</guid>
		<description>Sebastian is right that the &quot;silencing dissent&quot; card gets played in all sorts of places, by all sorts of people with big megaphones.

Here&#039;s an &lt;a href=&quot;http://goldennotebooks.blogspot.com/2006/02/grumpy-post-in-which-nyrb-drives-me.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;especially irritating example&lt;/a&gt; from a recent New York Review or Books...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sebastian is right that the &#8220;silencing dissent&#8221; card gets played in all sorts of places, by all sorts of people with big megaphones.</p>

	<p>Here&#8217;s an <a href="http://goldennotebooks.blogspot.com/2006/02/grumpy-post-in-which-nyrb-drives-me.html" rel="nofollow">especially irritating example</a> from a recent New York Review or Books&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: lemuel pitkin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/26/overheard-conversation/comment-page-2/#comment-149603</link>
		<dc:creator>lemuel pitkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Mar 2006 17:48:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4477#comment-149603</guid>
		<description>Martin James offers

&lt;i&gt;an evolutionary psychology explanation of the chickenhawk phenomenon. The more other people get killed fighting, the more likely the chickenhawk offspring will increase their share of the reproductive resources.&lt;/i&gt;

Could be. But then, here&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://82.112.100.113/v27/n22/lutt01_.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Edward Luttwak&lt;/a&gt; in the LRB:

&lt;blockquote&gt;in the words of the military historian Martin van Creveld, ‘men love war and women love warriors.’ That he is right cannot be doubted because, with few exceptions, wars throughout history have been fought by volunteers, ... and men would certainly have found other diversions if warriors had not been especially attractive to women. There is also a corollary: when women love warriors, they procreate sufficiently to replace the losses of war – and that too cannot be doubted, for otherwise we would not be here.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

There is indeed an evolutionary pyshology story about everything -- but I&#039;m not sure if &quot;explain&quot; is the right word for what they do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Martin James offers</p>

	<p><i>an evolutionary psychology explanation of the chickenhawk phenomenon. The more other people get killed fighting, the more likely the chickenhawk offspring will increase their share of the reproductive resources.</i></p>

	<p>Could be. But then, here&#8217;s <a href="http://82.112.100.113/v27/n22/lutt01_.html" rel="nofollow">Edward Luttwak</a> in the <span class="caps">LRB</span>:</p>

	<p><blockquote>in the words of the military historian Martin van Creveld, &#8216;men love war and women love warriors.&#8217; That he is right cannot be doubted because, with few exceptions, wars throughout history have been fought by volunteers, &#8230; and men would certainly have found other diversions if warriors had not been especially attractive to women. There is also a corollary: when women love warriors, they procreate sufficiently to replace the losses of war &#8211; and that too cannot be doubted, for otherwise we would not be here.</blockquote></p>

	<p>There is indeed an evolutionary pyshology story about everything&#8212;but I&#8217;m not sure if &#8220;explain&#8221; is the right word for what they do.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/26/overheard-conversation/comment-page-2/#comment-149601</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Mar 2006 17:43:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4477#comment-149601</guid>
		<description>Mark Ames has &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.exile.ru/2006-March-24/bush_league.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;good debating style&lt;/a&gt;, as usual.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Mark Ames has <a href="http://www.exile.ru/2006-March-24/bush_league.html" rel="nofollow">good debating style</a>, as usual.</p>
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		<title>By: Leo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/26/overheard-conversation/comment-page-2/#comment-149600</link>
		<dc:creator>Leo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Mar 2006 17:42:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4477#comment-149600</guid>
		<description>Hey, pie cooling - &quot;sociobiologist&quot; is too a word. Get a dictionary, dummy. (&quot;Dictionary&quot; is a word too. So is &quot;ridicule.&quot;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hey, pie cooling &#8211; &#8220;sociobiologist&#8221; is too a word. Get a dictionary, dummy. (&#8220;Dictionary&#8221; is a word too. So is &#8220;ridicule.&#8221;)</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/26/overheard-conversation/comment-page-2/#comment-149591</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Mar 2006 16:39:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4477#comment-149591</guid>
		<description>Steve L.

&quot;from where I sit it’s the post-Gingrich leadership of the Republican Party that’s primarily responsible for bringing the 60s-bombthrowing-radical style into the mainstream of US political discourse,&quot;

How?  As far as I know, the only groups that actively use the &#039;bomb-throwing radical style&#039; are eco-activists and anti-globalizationists.  You think the Republican Party brought them about? 

Steve</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Steve L.</p>

	<p>&#8220;from where I sit it&#8217;s the post-Gingrich leadership of the Republican Party that&#8217;s primarily responsible for bringing the 60s-bombthrowing-radical style into the mainstream of US political discourse,&#8221;</p>

	<p>How?  As far as I know, the only groups that actively use the &#8216;bomb-throwing radical style&#8217; are eco-activists and anti-globalizationists.  You think the Republican Party brought them about?</p>

	<p>Steve</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian Holsclaw</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/26/overheard-conversation/comment-page-2/#comment-149590</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian Holsclaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Mar 2006 16:35:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4477#comment-149590</guid>
		<description>&quot;This is what so much of the right is reduced to: crying that they’re being oppressed&quot;

Good heavens.  You might want to look up the phrase &quot;stifling dissent&quot; and see how it is actually used.  

Recent &#039;victims&#039; include:

Janeane Garofalo
Michael Moore
Dixie Chicks
Susan Sarandon

Now I really think it would have been better if the ROTC members had said something.  They should be willing to challenge the establishment rhetoric on campus.  But it looks silly to turn their personal unwillingness into a cult of victimhood while apparently being unaware of the way &quot;stifling my dissent&quot; games actually get played.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;This is what so much of the right is reduced to: crying that they&#8217;re being oppressed&#8221;</p>

	<p>Good heavens.  You might want to look up the phrase &#8220;stifling dissent&#8221; and see how it is actually used.</p>

	<p>Recent &#8216;victims&#8217; include:</p>

	<p>Janeane Garofalo<br />
Michael Moore<br />
Dixie Chicks<br />
Susan Sarandon</p>

	<p>Now I really think it would have been better if the <span class="caps">ROTC</span> members had said something.  They should be willing to challenge the establishment rhetoric on campus.  But it looks silly to turn their personal unwillingness into a cult of victimhood while apparently being unaware of the way &#8220;stifling my dissent&#8221; games actually get played.</p>
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		<title>By: A pie cooling on a windowsill</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/26/overheard-conversation/comment-page-2/#comment-149588</link>
		<dc:creator>A pie cooling on a windowsill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Mar 2006 16:04:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4477#comment-149588</guid>
		<description>#57 makes sense.

As for #58, I don&#039;t think &quot;socio-biologist&quot; is actually a word.  Please revise your comment in such a way that it makes sense to people other than you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>#57 makes sense.</p>

	<p>As for #58, I don&#8217;t think &#8220;socio-biologist&#8221; is actually a word.  Please revise your comment in such a way that it makes sense to people other than you.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Steve LaBonne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/26/overheard-conversation/comment-page-2/#comment-149584</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LaBonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Mar 2006 15:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4477#comment-149584</guid>
		<description>brooksfoe- from where I sit it&#039;s the post-Gingrich leadership of the Republican Party that&#039;s primarily responsible for bringing the 60s-bombthrowing-radical style into the mainstream of US political discourse, and the blatant and appalling mendacity of the neo-Nixonian Bush Administration in even the smallest matters has completed the degradation of that discourse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>brooksfoe- from where I sit it&#8217;s the post-Gingrich leadership of the Republican Party that&#8217;s primarily responsible for bringing the 60s-bombthrowing-radical style into the mainstream of US political discourse, and the blatant and appalling mendacity of the neo-Nixonian Bush Administration in even the smallest matters has completed the degradation of that discourse.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Uncle Kvetch</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/26/overheard-conversation/comment-page-2/#comment-149582</link>
		<dc:creator>Uncle Kvetch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Mar 2006 14:52:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4477#comment-149582</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Probably accompanied by a “they had it coming to them” muttered underneath his breath.&lt;/i&gt;

It&#039;s always a good idea to counter the arguments your opponents probably make, as opposed to the ones they actually do. Saves a lot of time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Probably accompanied by a &#8220;they had it coming to them&#8221; muttered underneath his breath.</i></p>

	<p>It&#8217;s always a good idea to counter the arguments your opponents probably make, as opposed to the ones they actually do. Saves a lot of time.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: perianwyr</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/26/overheard-conversation/comment-page-2/#comment-149581</link>
		<dc:creator>perianwyr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Mar 2006 14:42:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4477#comment-149581</guid>
		<description>In Murray&#039;s case, yeah, he did.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>In Murray&#8217;s case, yeah, he did.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack Strocchi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/26/overheard-conversation/comment-page-2/#comment-149577</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack Strocchi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Mar 2006 14:15:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4477#comment-149577</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;This is what so much of the right is reduced to: crying that they’re being oppressed – these guys genuinely believed that their rights had been taken away – whenever they don’t find themselves in the majority.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

John Mandle suffers from a severe case of ideological mon-opia in this case. He seems to be forgetting that political correctness and identity politics have cast a massive wet blanket on free speech both on campus and off.

So-called socio-biologists, who are Right-wing I suppose, have definitely got the short end of the stick in recent times. 

Interestingly, the British proto-socio-biologists - such as Darwin, Galton and later Shaw - were mildly Left-wing. But far from being persecuted they wound up with peerages and lionised by everyone. Shows that the history of civil liberty in British-style states does not always fit into the Whiggish interpretation.

Practioners and followers of the &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_School_of_Differential_Psychology&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;London Differential School of Psychology&lt;/a&gt; (eg Jensen) and American socio-biology (EO Wilson,) have faced violent hostility and collegial persecution for their views. Charles Murray was in regular receipt of intimidation and death theats.

More recently two academics Andrew Fraser and Frank Ellis have been hounded out of their jobs for expressing &quot;race realist&quot; viewpoints. There is simply no parallel to this kind of persecution in modern academic life.

So far as I can tell the response from John Mandle, the supposedly freedom-loving academic at Crooked Timber, to these outrages has been a big fat yawn. Probably accompanied by a &quot;they had it coming to them&quot; muttered underneath his breath.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote><i>This is what so much of the right is reduced to: crying that they&#8217;re being oppressed &#8211; these guys genuinely believed that their rights had been taken away &#8211; whenever they don&#8217;t find themselves in the majority.</i></blockquote></p>

	<p>John Mandle suffers from a severe case of ideological mon-opia in this case. He seems to be forgetting that political correctness and identity politics have cast a massive wet blanket on free speech both on campus and off.</p>

	<p>So-called socio-biologists, who are Right-wing I suppose, have definitely got the short end of the stick in recent times.</p>

	<p>Interestingly, the British proto-socio-biologists &#8211; such as Darwin, Galton and later Shaw &#8211; were mildly Left-wing. But far from being persecuted they wound up with peerages and lionised by everyone. Shows that the history of civil liberty in British-style states does not always fit into the Whiggish interpretation.</p>

	<p>Practioners and followers of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_School_of_Differential_Psychology" rel="nofollow">London Differential School of Psychology</a> (eg Jensen) and American socio-biology (EO Wilson,) have faced violent hostility and collegial persecution for their views. Charles Murray was in regular receipt of intimidation and death theats.</p>

	<p>More recently two academics Andrew Fraser and Frank Ellis have been hounded out of their jobs for expressing &#8220;race realist&#8221; viewpoints. There is simply no parallel to this kind of persecution in modern academic life.</p>

	<p>So far as I can tell the response from John Mandle, the supposedly freedom-loving academic at Crooked Timber, to these outrages has been a big fat yawn. Probably accompanied by a &#8220;they had it coming to them&#8221; muttered underneath his breath.</p>
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