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	<title>Comments on: Man, You Guys Worked Me Hard&#8230;.</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/27/man-you-guys-worked-me-hard/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Sylvia S Tognetti</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/27/man-you-guys-worked-me-hard/comment-page-1/#comment-150310</link>
		<dc:creator>Sylvia S Tognetti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:26:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4480#comment-150310</guid>
		<description>I have really enjoyed this discussion - this comment is just to let you all know I posted some rather longish commentary on postnormaltimes.net, mostly picking up on Daniel Davies and John Quiggins observations - i.e., &quot;why do we have this parallel universe that is so well documented in RWOS.&quot; I haven&#039;t tried to cross-post it here because it also goes into issues that have been discussed on PNT - but if there is a way to trackback to this site I will do so. Permalink to the post is:
http://www.postnormaltimes.net/blog/archives/2006/03/difficult_scien_1.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I have really enjoyed this discussion &#8211; this comment is just to let you all know I posted some rather longish commentary on postnormaltimes.net, mostly picking up on Daniel Davies and John Quiggins observations &#8211; i.e., &#8220;why do we have this parallel universe that is so well documented in <span class="caps">RWOS</span>.&#8221; I haven&#8217;t tried to cross-post it here because it also goes into issues that have been discussed on <span class="caps">PNT </span>- but if there is a way to trackback to this site I will do so. Permalink to the post is:<br />
<a href="http://www.postnormaltimes.net/blog/archives/2006/03/difficult_scien_1.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.postnormaltimes.net/blog/archives/2006/03/difficult_scien_1.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Tim Lambert</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/27/man-you-guys-worked-me-hard/comment-page-1/#comment-149873</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Lambert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Mar 2006 03:59:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4480#comment-149873</guid>
		<description>I think &quot;ionospheric&quot; was just a typo (and Shallit was unfair for beating them up over it).  Here is where they first cite Taubes:
&lt;blockquote&gt;[CFCs] are clearly significant reactants  in the chain of processes causing the seasonal hole in polar stratospheric ozone.[22]&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Seems to me they did more than skim Taubes -- they considered the evidence and come to a conclusion.

And even if you skim Taubes, it is hard to miss Dixy Lee Ray, since there is a picture of her book on the front page.

Nor does it seem plausible that they had forgetten about Taubes when they recommended Ray -- they cite him again on the same page in note 24 and then note 25 (in the next paragraph) is the favourable cite of Ray.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think &#8220;ionospheric&#8221; was just a typo (and Shallit was unfair for beating them up over it).  Here is where they first cite Taubes:<br />
<blockquote>[CFCs] are clearly significant reactants  in the chain of processes causing the seasonal hole in polar stratospheric ozone.[22]</blockquote><br />
Seems to me they did more than skim Taubes&#8212;they considered the evidence and come to a conclusion.</p>

	<p>And even if you skim Taubes, it is hard to miss Dixy Lee Ray, since there is a picture of her book on the front page.</p>

	<p>Nor does it seem plausible that they had forgetten about Taubes when they recommended Ray&#8212;they cite him again on the same page in note 24 and then note 25 (in the next paragraph) is the favourable cite of Ray.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert P.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/27/man-you-guys-worked-me-hard/comment-page-1/#comment-149809</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert P.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Mar 2006 19:04:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4480#comment-149809</guid>
		<description>Tim, you are assuming that just because Gross and Levitt cited Taubes&#039; article, they had actually read it. I suspect that they didn&#039;t do more than skim it - anyone who refers to &quot;depletion of &lt;i&gt;ionospheric&lt;/i&gt; ozone&quot; as they did clearly hasn&#039;t made much of an effort to read up on the subject. They can certainly be charged with sloppiness; I just wanted to make clear that they hadn&#039;t actually climbed aboard this particular bandwagon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Tim, you are assuming that just because Gross and Levitt cited Taubes&#8217; article, they had actually read it. I suspect that they didn&#8217;t do more than skim it &#8211; anyone who refers to &#8220;depletion of <i>ionospheric</i> ozone&#8221; as they did clearly hasn&#8217;t made much of an effort to read up on the subject. They can certainly be charged with sloppiness; I just wanted to make clear that they hadn&#8217;t actually climbed aboard this particular bandwagon.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Lambert</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/27/man-you-guys-worked-me-hard/comment-page-1/#comment-149779</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Lambert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Mar 2006 15:59:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4480#comment-149779</guid>
		<description>Robert P, while missing four pages on ozone depletion in a book is excusable, Taubes&#039; article &quot;The Ozone Backlash&quot; is only four pages long and Dixy Lee Ray&#039;s bogus volcano theory is thoroughly debunked.  Gross and Levitt cites Taubes as demonstrating that CFCs really do deplete ozone and on the next page refer to Dixy Lee Ray as &quot;straight-shooting&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Robert P, while missing four pages on ozone depletion in a book is excusable, Taubes&#8217; article &#8220;The Ozone Backlash&#8221; is only four pages long and Dixy Lee Ray&#8217;s bogus volcano theory is thoroughly debunked.  Gross and Levitt cites Taubes as demonstrating that CFCs really do deplete ozone and on the next page refer to Dixy Lee Ray as &#8220;straight-shooting&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/27/man-you-guys-worked-me-hard/comment-page-1/#comment-149766</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Mar 2006 14:55:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4480#comment-149766</guid>
		<description>About the techno-optimists, such as Newt and Reynolds:  there was a saying about Naziism, that it was in love with technology, but hated science.  Presumably the same could be said about Stalinism.  

The key is that they like bigger guns, bombs, airplanes, trains, crop yields, steel tonnage, etc.  National power, national prosperity. 

However they don&#039;t like political freedom, which means that truth is untrustworthy.  As was said on the &#039;Daily Show&#039; once, &#039;John, the facts are biased against the administration&#039;.   

These people will go along with the war for the most part, heartily support it sometimes, and oppose it very little.  In the end, they&#039;ll support it, because it&#039;s so useful to suppress inconvenient facts.  The end result is that those facts inconvenient to any signficant faction of the GOP coalition are in danger, unless they are of significant and direct value to another.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>About the techno-optimists, such as Newt and Reynolds:  there was a saying about Naziism, that it was in love with technology, but hated science.  Presumably the same could be said about Stalinism.</p>

	<p>The key is that they like bigger guns, bombs, airplanes, trains, crop yields, steel tonnage, etc.  National power, national prosperity.</p>

	<p>However they don&#8217;t like political freedom, which means that truth is untrustworthy.  As was said on the &#8216;Daily Show&#8217; once, &#8216;John, the facts are biased against the administration&#8217;.</p>

	<p>These people will go along with the war for the most part, heartily support it sometimes, and oppose it very little.  In the end, they&#8217;ll support it, because it&#8217;s so useful to suppress inconvenient facts.  The end result is that those facts inconvenient to any signficant faction of the <span class="caps">GOP</span> coalition are in danger, unless they are of significant and direct value to another.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/27/man-you-guys-worked-me-hard/comment-page-1/#comment-149759</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Mar 2006 14:04:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4480#comment-149759</guid>
		<description>Chris:  &quot;...and then Steve Fuller gives us a case study in continuing antagonisms between said academic left and the scientific community, ...&quot;.

Chris, IMHO this is too strong a statement.  Steve Fuller is one guy.  One who has been a  useful tool for the right&#039;s war on science.  To my eyes he&#039;s more of a parody of a left-wing ivory tower relativist fool than representative anything singificant in academia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Chris:  &#8220;&#8230;and then Steve Fuller gives us a case study in continuing antagonisms between said academic left and the scientific community, &#8230;&#8221;.</p>

	<p>Chris, <span class="caps">IMHO</span> this is too strong a statement.  Steve Fuller is one guy.  One who has been a  useful tool for the right&#8217;s war on science.  To my eyes he&#8217;s more of a parody of a left-wing ivory tower relativist fool than representative anything singificant in academia.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/27/man-you-guys-worked-me-hard/comment-page-1/#comment-149758</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Mar 2006 14:01:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4480#comment-149758</guid>
		<description>Jacob T. Levy:  &quot; but it may explain why AEI people are willing to give them a platform, a bullhorn, and a respectful hearing.&quot;

Considering AEI&#039;s recent record, including the Iraq war, I&#039;d put the burden of proof on the other side - when has AEI ever shown evidence of honesty?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Jacob T. Levy:  &#8221; but it may explain why <span class="caps">AEI</span> people are willing to give them a platform, a bullhorn, and a respectful hearing.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Considering <span class="caps">AEI</span>&#8217;s recent record, including the Iraq war, I&#8217;d put the burden of proof on the other side &#8211; when has <span class="caps">AEI</span> ever shown evidence of honesty?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Mooney</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/27/man-you-guys-worked-me-hard/comment-page-1/#comment-149688</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Mooney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Mar 2006 01:35:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4480#comment-149688</guid>
		<description>Robert: I agree with you completely about Boehlert and have praised him in the past. Not exactly representative of his party politically, however.

Robert P: Thanks for the clarification.

Jacob: I think that really casts a light on what the mindset behind this might be. As I said, the &quot;war on science&quot; may not be intentional, but when you get enough think tanks attacking mainstream science, it becomes actual.

All: On peer review, it&#039;s obviously not perfect, but there have to be some standards for the judgment of scientific work--some way of setting up the game in order to hopefully ensure reliable answers in the long run. We do the best we can. 

Finally, a few more points in reply to Steve Fuller, who writes: &quot;I suppose the tenor of Chris’ response to me is that he really does believe that there is a tension between science and democracy that somehow needs to be negotiated or compromised. But my point is that this tension is simply reflects the extent to which science by itself is not democratically organized.&quot;

Maybe science could be more democratically organized--and we can talk about that--but I&#039;m trying to rescue science from present day political attack. These are separate issues.

Fuller also writes: &quot;Two, whatever else The Republican War on Science was meant to convey, it really does leave this reader with the impression that it’s all about the revenge of the politically repressed – where science is now proposed as the means by which Democrats and Moderate Republicans can get back at the right-wingers in power, since the ballot box has failed them miserably. That the angels and devils in both science and politics should line up so neatly is implausible, and suggests that science is not, at bottom, at issue here.&quot;

All I can say is that, au contraire, science *is* the issue here. Think about it this way. Suppose I wanted to unseat George W. Bush. From an electoral standpoint, does anyone seriously think that I would make *science policy* my issue to use against him? Can anyone think of an issue *less* likely to have broad mainstream appeal?

Elections are won on matters of economics and healthcare--bread and butter stuff--or else matters of war. Or perhaps &quot;moral values.&quot; But they&#039;re not won on matters of science policy.

If unseating George W. Bush is my goal, I have chosen a curious way to go about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Robert: I agree with you completely about Boehlert and have praised him in the past. Not exactly representative of his party politically, however.</p>

	<p>Robert P: Thanks for the clarification.</p>

	<p>Jacob: I think that really casts a light on what the mindset behind this might be. As I said, the &#8220;war on science&#8221; may not be intentional, but when you get enough think tanks attacking mainstream science, it becomes actual.</p>

	<p>All: On peer review, it&#8217;s obviously not perfect, but there have to be some standards for the judgment of scientific work&#8212;some way of setting up the game in order to hopefully ensure reliable answers in the long run. We do the best we can.</p>

	<p>Finally, a few more points in reply to Steve Fuller, who writes: &#8220;I suppose the tenor of Chris&#8217; response to me is that he really does believe that there is a tension between science and democracy that somehow needs to be negotiated or compromised. But my point is that this tension is simply reflects the extent to which science by itself is not democratically organized.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Maybe science could be more democratically organized&#8212;and we can talk about that&#8212;but I&#8217;m trying to rescue science from present day political attack. These are separate issues.</p>

	<p>Fuller also writes: &#8220;Two, whatever else The Republican War on Science was meant to convey, it really does leave this reader with the impression that it&#8217;s all about the revenge of the politically repressed &#8211; where science is now proposed as the means by which Democrats and Moderate Republicans can get back at the right-wingers in power, since the ballot box has failed them miserably. That the angels and devils in both science and politics should line up so neatly is implausible, and suggests that science is not, at bottom, at issue here.&#8221;</p>

	<p>All I can say is that, au contraire, science <strong>is</strong> the issue here. Think about it this way. Suppose I wanted to unseat George W. Bush. From an electoral standpoint, does anyone seriously think that I would make <strong>science policy</strong> my issue to use against him? Can anyone think of an issue <strong>less</strong> likely to have broad mainstream appeal?</p>

	<p>Elections are won on matters of economics and healthcare&#8212;bread and butter stuff&#8212;or else matters of war. Or perhaps &#8220;moral values.&#8221; But they&#8217;re not won on matters of science policy.</p>

	<p>If unseating George W. Bush is my goal, I have chosen a curious way to go about it.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert P.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/27/man-you-guys-worked-me-hard/comment-page-1/#comment-149680</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert P.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Mar 2006 01:04:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4480#comment-149680</guid>
		<description>Point of clarification: Gross and Levitt did not promote Dixy Lee Ray&#039;s nonsense about CFC/ozone. They recommended her first book (_Trashing the Planet_) for its treatment of unrelated subjects (IIRC, the environmental effects of nuclear power which Ray actually did know something about). The CFC/ozone discussion in _Trashing_ is very short (about 4 pages, in which I managed to find a mistake in nearly every sentence) and Gross and Levitt may not have noticed it. Yes, they should have (as Shallit very properly pointed out), but not everyone has the kind of detailed attention span that you, Shallit, and most especially Lambert have demonstrated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Point of clarification: Gross and Levitt did not promote Dixy Lee Ray&#8217;s nonsense about <span class="caps">CFC</span>/ozone. They recommended her first book (_Trashing the Planet_) for its treatment of unrelated subjects (IIRC, the environmental effects of nuclear power which Ray actually did know something about). The <span class="caps">CFC</span>/ozone discussion in <em>Trashing</em> is very short (about 4 pages, in which I managed to find a mistake in nearly every sentence) and Gross and Levitt may not have noticed it. Yes, they should have (as Shallit very properly pointed out), but not everyone has the kind of detailed attention span that you, Shallit, and most especially Lambert have demonstrated.</p>
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		<title>By: Drm</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/27/man-you-guys-worked-me-hard/comment-page-1/#comment-149671</link>
		<dc:creator>Drm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Mar 2006 23:25:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4480#comment-149671</guid>
		<description>Seconding comment #7, science really is hard to do well, hence over their careers most scientists function within a fairly narrow niche. 

With respect to the reliability of peer-review, on short time scales (publications and grant review panels) an error prone process is actually necessary and desirable. Hence, peer review is best at eliminating things that are clearly wrong, rather than establishing which things are correct. To find truth, one needs to take a long view.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Seconding comment #7, science really is hard to do well, hence over their careers most scientists function within a fairly narrow niche.</p>

	<p>With respect to the reliability of peer-review, on short time scales (publications and grant review panels) an error prone process is actually necessary and desirable. Hence, peer review is best at eliminating things that are clearly wrong, rather than establishing which things are correct. To find truth, one needs to take a long view.</p>
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		<title>By: armando</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/27/man-you-guys-worked-me-hard/comment-page-1/#comment-149669</link>
		<dc:creator>armando</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Mar 2006 23:04:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4480#comment-149669</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Steve is dead right on this point; it always massively distresses me that so many of the self-appointed crusaders against “relativism” end up with a standard which boils down to “Nature said it...I really have not yet found anything in the natural sciences which is soooo very difficult that an intelligent layman cannot form a judgement on it if he is willing to apply himself.&lt;/i&gt;

The last sentence is certainly true. But is there any way to really distinguish an informed layman from someone uninformed when we democratise science? That is, if the overwhelming expert scientific opinion agrees on the most probably resolution of a scientific controversy - and, like Steve Fuller, one wants to claim this isn&#039;t enough - then what do you really have except straight democracy? How can you judge competency, if you have already discarded expert opinion as insufficient?

My impression is that Steve Fuller is unwittingly aiding this &quot;War on Science&quot; by taking the line he does. One does get the impression that he is frustrated by the political naiveity of the science &quot;supporters&quot; and he is certainly right that if scientists were to loosen up their professional ethics and play more politics, the fight would be a lot fairer. But one really does have to believe that there is nothing but politics and sociology to science to believe that this would actually be of benefit to scientific enquiry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Steve is dead right on this point; it always massively distresses me that so many of the self-appointed crusaders against &#8220;relativism&#8221; end up with a standard which boils down to &#8220;Nature said it&#8230;I really have not yet found anything in the natural sciences which is soooo very difficult that an intelligent layman cannot form a judgement on it if he is willing to apply himself.</i></p>

	<p>The last sentence is certainly true. But is there any way to really distinguish an informed layman from someone uninformed when we democratise science? That is, if the overwhelming expert scientific opinion agrees on the most probably resolution of a scientific controversy &#8211; and, like Steve Fuller, one wants to claim this isn&#8217;t enough &#8211; then what do you really have except straight democracy? How can you judge competency, if you have already discarded expert opinion as insufficient?</p>

	<p>My impression is that Steve Fuller is unwittingly aiding this &#8220;War on Science&#8221; by taking the line he does. One does get the impression that he is frustrated by the political naiveity of the science &#8220;supporters&#8221; and he is certainly right that if scientists were to loosen up their professional ethics and play more politics, the fight would be a lot fairer. But one really does have to believe that there is nothing but politics and sociology to science to believe that this would actually be of benefit to scientific enquiry.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/27/man-you-guys-worked-me-hard/comment-page-1/#comment-149666</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Mar 2006 22:45:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4480#comment-149666</guid>
		<description>Chris,

Sherwood Boehlert, who (as you know) is the Republican congressman chairing(?) the House committee on science and technology(?), is retiring this year after n terms. He is one Republican who is on the side of science. Inasmuch as his district includes an Air Force research laboratory, he has an institutional interest in these matters. (My salary comes from the funding of that laboratory.) Self-interests and positions can be related in complicated fashions.

Now I&#039;ll go read the other blog posts in this seminar - they come out on my browser in weird order.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Chris,</p>

	<p>Sherwood Boehlert, who (as you know) is the Republican congressman chairing(?) the House committee on science and technology(?), is retiring this year after n terms. He is one Republican who is on the side of science. Inasmuch as his district includes an Air Force research laboratory, he has an institutional interest in these matters. (My salary comes from the funding of that laboratory.) Self-interests and positions can be related in complicated fashions.</p>

	<p>Now I&#8217;ll go read the other blog posts in this seminar &#8211; they come out on my browser in weird order.</p>
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		<title>By: aphd</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/27/man-you-guys-worked-me-hard/comment-page-1/#comment-149649</link>
		<dc:creator>aphd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Mar 2006 21:45:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4480#comment-149649</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I really have not yet found anything in the natural sciences which is soooo very difficult that an intelligent layman cannot form a judgement on it if he is willing to apply himself.&lt;/i&gt;

I think the problem is that too many people (layman and scientists in other fields) think that they&#039;re competent to make judgements in scientific fields where they know too little to evaluate the material.  I&#039;ve got a Ph.D. in physics, but I&#039;m honest and realistic enough to admit that I don&#039;t have the background to evaluate topics outside of my area like string theory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I really have not yet found anything in the natural sciences which is soooo very difficult that an intelligent layman cannot form a judgement on it if he is willing to apply himself.</i></p>

	<p>I think the problem is that too many people (layman and scientists in other fields) think that they&#8217;re competent to make judgements in scientific fields where they know too little to evaluate the material.  I&#8217;ve got a Ph.D. in physics, but I&#8217;m honest and realistic enough to admit that I don&#8217;t have the background to evaluate topics outside of my area like string theory.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob T. Levy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/27/man-you-guys-worked-me-hard/comment-page-1/#comment-149647</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob T. Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Mar 2006 21:39:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4480#comment-149647</guid>
		<description>Hm.  From the perspective of a libertarian disgusted with the war on science, I&#039;m struck by the following:

The emergence of the parallel institutional universe has something to be said for it in the social sciences and the humanities.  It has essentially nothing to say for it in the natural sciences.  But the (chronologically prior) rise of the counter-establishment think tanks and insulated academic spaces like Hoover, the Committee on Social Thought, and Law &amp; Econ centers may have softened some people up to see that as a norm.  That is, a right-leaning law professor, social scientist, or philosopher may be well-disposed toward the growth of institutions outside mainstream academia-- regardless of whether he or she has benefitted personally from such institutions, even been employed by them.  Part of our lore is about stifling left-wing consensuses in mainstream academia.  (And then the triumphant denouements when the disciplines must recognize the errors of their ways: Hayek and Friedman win their Nobels, the neoclassical synthesis supplants Keynesianism, neoliberalism supplants dependency theory in development economics, originalism and law &amp; economics become major research agendas within the mainstream legal academy, and so on.  Victory is reincorporation into the disciplines.)  

Of course, I&#039;m sympathetic to a number of the ideas that were so cultivated.  I&#039;m sure lots of the symposium participants aren&#039;t.  But I assume we can all agree that those ideas are actually within their disciplines, in the way that ID is not actually within biology.  The human sciences are a) less amenable to decisive proof and disproof than thenatural sciences; b) sometimes appropriately tied up with normative values; and c) even when not, easily conflated with normative political positions.  So the social sciences and the humanities may well be prone to genuinely important research agendas getting frozen out for essentially political reasons; and alternative institutions may well cultivate ideas that can later be reincorporated into the disciplines, to the latter&#039;s benefit.

The catch is: two generations of conservative and libertarian intellectuals know this story and have habits of mind shaped by it.  That might-- might-- have made it easier for some of them (us) to look favorably on pseudo-scientists claiming to represent the same kind of thing in the natural sciences.  Too many habits of mind that say, &quot;We know that the established consensus in an academic discipline can be wrong, and wrong because of ideological blinders!  So we should give this ID&#039;er a fair hearing.&quot;  

As I say, the analogy is actually entirely wrong.  Even someone who thinks neoclassical economics is wrong will, I think, acknowledge it to be wrong in a different way from how ID is wrong or how the &quot;abortion is evil so it must cause cancer&quot; folks are wrong.  And probably no one consciously said, &quot;We need to create the Hoover Institution or Federalist Society of climate science!&quot;  But there may have been a temperament of distrust of disciplinary consensuses, a distrust of the mechanisms of peer review working in ideologically neutral ways, etc., that may have been a precipitating factor.  This doesn&#039;t explain where ID people come from; but it may explain why AEI people are willing to give them a platform, a bullhorn, and a respectful hearing.

A long digression, sparked by the &quot;parallel institutional universe&quot; idea, and not something I&#039;ve thought out carefully.  Just... maybe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hm.  From the perspective of a libertarian disgusted with the war on science, I&#8217;m struck by the following:</p>

	<p>The emergence of the parallel institutional universe has something to be said for it in the social sciences and the humanities.  It has essentially nothing to say for it in the natural sciences.  But the (chronologically prior) rise of the counter-establishment think tanks and insulated academic spaces like Hoover, the Committee on Social Thought, and Law &#038; Econ centers may have softened some people up to see that as a norm.  That is, a right-leaning law professor, social scientist, or philosopher may be well-disposed toward the growth of institutions outside mainstream academia&#8212;regardless of whether he or she has benefitted personally from such institutions, even been employed by them.  Part of our lore is about stifling left-wing consensuses in mainstream academia.  (And then the triumphant denouements when the disciplines must recognize the errors of their ways: Hayek and Friedman win their Nobels, the neoclassical synthesis supplants Keynesianism, neoliberalism supplants dependency theory in development economics, originalism and law &#038; economics become major research agendas within the mainstream legal academy, and so on.  Victory is reincorporation into the disciplines.)</p>

	<p>Of course, I&#8217;m sympathetic to a number of the ideas that were so cultivated.  I&#8217;m sure lots of the symposium participants aren&#8217;t.  But I assume we can all agree that those ideas are actually within their disciplines, in the way that ID is not actually within biology.  The human sciences are a) less amenable to decisive proof and disproof than thenatural sciences; b) sometimes appropriately tied up with normative values; and c) even when not, easily conflated with normative political positions.  So the social sciences and the humanities may well be prone to genuinely important research agendas getting frozen out for essentially political reasons; and alternative institutions may well cultivate ideas that can later be reincorporated into the disciplines, to the latter&#8217;s benefit.</p>

	<p>The catch is: two generations of conservative and libertarian intellectuals know this story and have habits of mind shaped by it.  That might&#8212;might&#8212;have made it easier for some of them (us) to look favorably on pseudo-scientists claiming to represent the same kind of thing in the natural sciences.  Too many habits of mind that say, &#8220;We know that the established consensus in an academic discipline can be wrong, and wrong because of ideological blinders!  So we should give this ID&#8217;er a fair hearing.&#8221;</p>

	<p>As I say, the analogy is actually entirely wrong.  Even someone who thinks neoclassical economics is wrong will, I think, acknowledge it to be wrong in a different way from how ID is wrong or how the &#8220;abortion is evil so it must cause cancer&#8221; folks are wrong.  And probably no one consciously said, &#8220;We need to create the Hoover Institution or Federalist Society of climate science!&#8221;  But there may have been a temperament of distrust of disciplinary consensuses, a distrust of the mechanisms of peer review working in ideologically neutral ways, etc., that may have been a precipitating factor.  This doesn&#8217;t explain where ID people come from; but it may explain why <span class="caps">AEI</span> people are willing to give them a platform, a bullhorn, and a respectful hearing.</p>

	<p>A long digression, sparked by the &#8220;parallel institutional universe&#8221; idea, and not something I&#8217;ve thought out carefully.  Just&#8230; maybe.</p>
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		<title>By: rollo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/27/man-you-guys-worked-me-hard/comment-page-1/#comment-149643</link>
		<dc:creator>rollo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Mar 2006 21:22:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4480#comment-149643</guid>
		<description>Steve Fuller-&lt;i&gt;&quot;I put matters this way because, in the end, I don’t believe that scientists own science, just like politicians don’t own politics. Both groups are representing all of us – in different ways and means, to be sure. This point is important to stress because to be technically competent in a field of science (i.e. can do the math, the experiments, earn the respect of peers, etc.) is to say nothing yet about the intellectual, cultural, economic or political import of the field or the knowledge it produces.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;
Both groups represent something a little more difficult to parse than &quot;all of us&quot;.
They represent, differently and distinctly, portions of us. Factions. It&#039;s vital that those factions see themselves as representing the true center of humanity, and they do. And their actions and attitudes reflect that.
 Politicians favor some groups above others, science produces techniques and technologies that benefit some groups above others.  
The various economic laws create social filters that favor the prosperity and continuity of certain types of individuals, and the marginalizing and discontinuity of others.
Favoring and benefit meaning prosperity meaning biological gain.
 Over time those groups become more generally &quot;us&quot;. 
Over time this shapes what &quot;we&quot; are.
That&#039;s where the war is. Scientists, who work and live in an artificial world where true things have intrinsically more value than untrue things; and religionists who live in a world where perceived moral truth outranks the rational - both insist the contest take place on their home ground, and both win repeatedly there. But the contest is for dominance - biological, physical, material. And as always in the flux of Darwinian struggle, winning is everything. 
That&#039;s what animates the partisans on all sides, masked as their endeavors are behind the banners of &quot;truth&quot; and &quot;morality&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Steve Fuller-<i>&#8220;I put matters this way because, in the end, I don&#8217;t believe that scientists own science, just like politicians don&#8217;t own politics. Both groups are representing all of us &#8211; in different ways and means, to be sure. This point is important to stress because to be technically competent in a field of science (i.e. can do the math, the experiments, earn the respect of peers, etc.) is to say nothing yet about the intellectual, cultural, economic or political import of the field or the knowledge it produces.&#8221;</i><br />
Both groups represent something a little more difficult to parse than &#8220;all of us&#8221;.<br />
They represent, differently and distinctly, portions of us. Factions. It&#8217;s vital that those factions see themselves as representing the true center of humanity, and they do. And their actions and attitudes reflect that.<br />
Politicians favor some groups above others, science produces techniques and technologies that benefit some groups above others.<br />
The various economic laws create social filters that favor the prosperity and continuity of certain types of individuals, and the marginalizing and discontinuity of others.<br />
Favoring and benefit meaning prosperity meaning biological gain.<br />
Over time those groups become more generally &#8220;us&#8221;.<br />
Over time this shapes what &#8220;we&#8221; are.<br />
That&#8217;s where the war is. Scientists, who work and live in an artificial world where true things have intrinsically more value than untrue things; and religionists who live in a world where perceived moral truth outranks the rational &#8211; both insist the contest take place on their home ground, and both win repeatedly there. But the contest is for dominance &#8211; biological, physical, material. And as always in the flux of Darwinian struggle, winning is everything.<br />
That&#8217;s what animates the partisans on all sides, masked as their endeavors are behind the banners of &#8220;truth&#8221; and &#8220;morality&#8221;.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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