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	<title>Comments on: The Times Gets a Revamp</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/03/the-times-gets-a-revamp/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/03/the-times-gets-a-revamp/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: b. phillips</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/03/the-times-gets-a-revamp/comment-page-1/#comment-150790</link>
		<dc:creator>b. phillips</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Apr 2006 09:35:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/03/the-times-gets-a-revamp/#comment-150790</guid>
		<description>It is all about increasing ad space.

The Times site used to be pretty distinctive - black font, more Times font - but now it&#039;s pretty much the Washington Post. There is still some Times font, but  it has the blue (oooh, it&#039;s so easy on my fragile eyes) Arial headlines and giant &quot;TV screen&quot; picture, because us dumb consumers need to think we&#039;re watching TV.

Also, resolution matters. I am on a laptop, and I never - never - make browser windows take up my entire screen.  There are other things going on.  So perhaps the Times&#039; TV screen works for people with huge monitors and browser windows who like to scroll a lot... but not me.

One good thing: The fonts were way too small, especially on the sea of headlines at the bottom of the page.  They listened to feedback, though, and upped the size a few points.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It is all about increasing ad space.</p>

	<p>The Times site used to be pretty distinctive &#8211; black font, more Times font &#8211; but now it&#8217;s pretty much the Washington Post. There is still some Times font, but  it has the blue (oooh, it&#8217;s so easy on my fragile eyes) Arial headlines and giant &#8220;TV screen&#8221; picture, because us dumb consumers need to think we&#8217;re watching TV.</p>

	<p>Also, resolution matters. I am on a laptop, and I never &#8211; never &#8211; make browser windows take up my entire screen.  There are other things going on.  So perhaps the Times&#8217; TV screen works for people with huge monitors and browser windows who like to scroll a lot&#8230; but not me.</p>

	<p>One good thing: The fonts were way too small, especially on the sea of headlines at the bottom of the page.  They listened to feedback, though, and upped the size a few points.</p>
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		<title>By: miss representation</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/03/the-times-gets-a-revamp/comment-page-1/#comment-150611</link>
		<dc:creator>miss representation</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Apr 2006 16:40:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/03/the-times-gets-a-revamp/#comment-150611</guid>
		<description>Top menu bar? What does that have to do with screen &lt;em&gt;width&lt;/em&gt;? I made a simple claim: new laptops default to 1024 or wider (Dells default to 1400 or therabouts). Any reduction of width is user intervention, not device limitation. As far as I know, there are no default menu, screen, or other UI elements that reduce screen &lt;em&gt;width&lt;/em&gt; in OSX or XP. Am I wrong on that front?

And, again, major story content on the new site effectively ends at 620px. Which is inside the 640 margin that was the standard a decade ago.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Top menu bar? What does that have to do with screen <em>width</em>? I made a simple claim: new laptops default to 1024 or wider (Dells default to 1400 or therabouts). Any reduction of width is user intervention, not device limitation. As far as I know, there are no default menu, screen, or other UI elements that reduce screen <em>width</em> in <span class="caps">OSX</span> or XP. Am I wrong on that front?</p>

	<p>And, again, major story content on the new site effectively ends at 620px. Which is inside the 640 margin that was the standard a decade ago.</p>
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		<title>By: nick s</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/03/the-times-gets-a-revamp/comment-page-1/#comment-150599</link>
		<dc:creator>nick s</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Apr 2006 14:57:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/03/the-times-gets-a-revamp/#comment-150599</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Subtracting from available space due to docks, widgets or whatever else is your business. The screen is 1024.&lt;/i&gt;

Oh, &lt;i&gt;bullshit&lt;/i&gt;. In any iteration of MacOS, the top menu bar is a constant. You can&#039;t remove it. In any iteration of Windows, the bottom taskbar is there by default, and hiding it is stupid UI. Demanding the browser window to be at fullscreen is also bullshit. Work in DOS if you like, but I&#039;ve been using windowed GUIs for well over a decade, thank you very much.

&lt;i&gt;i believe that for web/computer screen purposes, Sans works out best and for type it’s Serif all the way.&lt;/i&gt;

That used to be the case, but with subpixel rendering on LCDs, the jaggedness of serif fonts -- at least, those designed for screen use -- is pretty much a thing of the past.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Subtracting from available space due to docks, widgets or whatever else is your business. The screen is 1024.</i></p>

	<p>Oh, <i>bullshit</i>. In any iteration of MacOS, the top menu bar is a constant. You can&#8217;t remove it. In any iteration of Windows, the bottom taskbar is there by default, and hiding it is stupid UI. Demanding the browser window to be at fullscreen is also bullshit. Work in <span class="caps">DOS</span> if you like, but I&#8217;ve been using windowed GUIs for well over a decade, thank you very much.</p>

	<p><i>i believe that for web/computer screen purposes, Sans works out best and for type it&#8217;s Serif all the way.</i></p>

	<p>That used to be the case, but with subpixel rendering on LCDs, the jaggedness of serif fonts&#8212;at least, those designed for screen use&#8212;is pretty much a thing of the past.</p>
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		<title>By: almostinfamous</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/03/the-times-gets-a-revamp/comment-page-1/#comment-150553</link>
		<dc:creator>almostinfamous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Apr 2006 06:25:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/03/the-times-gets-a-revamp/#comment-150553</guid>
		<description>john q, i believe that for web/computer screen purposes, Sans works out best and for type it&#039;s Serif all the way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>john q, i believe that for web/computer screen purposes, Sans works out best and for type it&#8217;s Serif all the way.</p>
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		<title>By: c'mon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/03/the-times-gets-a-revamp/comment-page-1/#comment-150551</link>
		<dc:creator>c'mon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Apr 2006 05:33:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/03/the-times-gets-a-revamp/#comment-150551</guid>
		<description>Umm, guys ... I hate to break this to you, but the resolution talk is bullshit. It&#039;s all about increased ad space.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Umm, guys &#8230; I hate to break this to you, but the resolution talk is bullshit. It&#8217;s all about increased ad space.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/03/the-times-gets-a-revamp/comment-page-1/#comment-150550</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Apr 2006 05:20:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/03/the-times-gets-a-revamp/#comment-150550</guid>
		<description>The typesize seems to have increased of its own accord - it&#039;s now readable.

On serif fonts, everything I&#039;ve seen says they are more readable than sans serif for blocks of text: is this wrong, or are screens different from paper?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The typesize seems to have increased of its own accord &#8211; it&#8217;s now readable.</p>

	<p>On serif fonts, everything I&#8217;ve seen says they are more readable than sans serif for blocks of text: is this wrong, or are screens different from paper?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: miss representation</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/03/the-times-gets-a-revamp/comment-page-1/#comment-150549</link>
		<dc:creator>miss representation</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Apr 2006 04:50:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/03/the-times-gets-a-revamp/#comment-150549</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;12in iBook, 1024×768, but the top menubar and dock (if you use it)&lt;/em&gt;

Subtracting from available space due to docks, widgets or whatever else is your business. The screen is 1024. Personally, I&#039;ve never seen the need for all that gimmickry. Having spent my most data processing intensive years in DOS, I&#039;d rather not touch my mouse. 

In any event the 1024 issue is a red herring. The major story content stops at 620px, as does all interior content. Even the below the fold story intros trim at 620 px. Being forced to measure this before I wrote it made me look closer at the layout. The care with which the elements are placed is a very elegant solution considering that in 15 months, half of you won&#039;t be needing the workaround. 

If you have Firefox, increasing type size is as simple as Ctrl + &#039;+&#039; (Ctrl and the plus key). Minus to make it smaller.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>12in iBook, 1024&#215;768, but the top menubar and dock (if you use it)</em></p>

	<p>Subtracting from available space due to docks, widgets or whatever else is your business. The screen is 1024. Personally, I&#8217;ve never seen the need for all that gimmickry. Having spent my most data processing intensive years in <span class="caps">DOS</span>, I&#8217;d rather not touch my mouse.</p>

	<p>In any event the 1024 issue is a red herring. The major story content stops at 620px, as does all interior content. Even the below the fold story intros trim at 620 px. Being forced to measure this before I wrote it made me look closer at the layout. The care with which the elements are placed is a very elegant solution considering that in 15 months, half of you won&#8217;t be needing the workaround.</p>

	<p>If you have Firefox, increasing type size is as simple as Ctrl + &#8216;+&#8217; (Ctrl and the plus key). Minus to make it smaller.</p>
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		<title>By: cbu</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/03/the-times-gets-a-revamp/comment-page-1/#comment-150548</link>
		<dc:creator>cbu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Apr 2006 03:59:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/03/the-times-gets-a-revamp/#comment-150548</guid>
		<description>When at home I often still use my blueberry iBook with its 12-inch monitor.  Built in 1995 and running Mac OS 9.2, it is still the one computer I&#039;ve ever owned that has never made a visit to Apple&#039;s repair center.

But it seems that every week another of my favorite sites undergoes a makeover that makes it at best an unpleasant chore to view when it doesn&#039;t crash my browser completely.  I&#039;m so sorry to be adding the nytimes.com to that list (along with my local papers and www.twinsbaseball.com); on the bright side perhaps the reduction of web-surfing options will ultimately increase my productivity.

Since MacClassic users probably only represent 5% of the Mac users who themselves represent 5% of the total PC market, I have no illusions that any web designer would consider back compatibility for  my configuration.  But I am surprised that anyone would look at the new nytimes.com design and consider it to be a marked improvement; even with my newer 14-inch iBook their site looks like a newspaper just threw up onto my screen.

(And in case anyone is wondering, although the content of CT posts is compressed to a 2 1/2 inch column surrounded by oceans of white space, it still renders well on my trusty blueberry.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>When at home I often still use my blueberry iBook with its 12-inch monitor.  Built in 1995 and running Mac <span class="caps">OS 9</span>.2, it is still the one computer I&#8217;ve ever owned that has never made a visit to Apple&#8217;s repair center.</p>

	<p>But it seems that every week another of my favorite sites undergoes a makeover that makes it at best an unpleasant chore to view when it doesn&#8217;t crash my browser completely.  I&#8217;m so sorry to be adding the nytimes.com to that list (along with my local papers and <a href="http://www.twinsbaseball.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.twinsbaseball.com</a>); on the bright side perhaps the reduction of web-surfing options will ultimately increase my productivity.</p>

	<p>Since MacClassic users probably only represent 5% of the Mac users who themselves represent 5% of the total PC market, I have no illusions that any web designer would consider back compatibility for  my configuration.  But I am surprised that anyone would look at the new nytimes.com design and consider it to be a marked improvement; even with my newer 14-inch iBook their site looks like a newspaper just threw up onto my screen.</p>

	<p>(And in case anyone is wondering, although the content of CT posts is compressed to a 2 1/2 inch column surrounded by oceans of white space, it still renders well on my trusty blueberry.)</p>
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		<title>By: fyreflye</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/03/the-times-gets-a-revamp/comment-page-1/#comment-150537</link>
		<dc:creator>fyreflye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Apr 2006 22:43:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/03/the-times-gets-a-revamp/#comment-150537</guid>
		<description>With a 15&quot;monitor (so sue me) set happily at 800 X 600 with 16 font size type I had to switch to 1024 X 768 and 20 to get it to fit my Firefox browser.  Those complaining about the small type may need to search their browsers&#039; settings to increase font size.  All&#039;s well except I can barely make out the labels on my  toolbar. But since I disable my javascript and smother Flash anyway the resulting &quot;enhancement&quot; is pointless for me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>With a 15&#8221;monitor (so sue me) set happily at 800 <span class="caps">X 600</span> with 16 font size type I had to switch to 1024 <span class="caps">X 768</span> and 20 to get it to fit my Firefox browser.  Those complaining about the small type may need to search their browsers&#8217; settings to increase font size.  All&#8217;s well except I can barely make out the labels on my  toolbar. But since I disable my javascript and smother Flash anyway the resulting &#8220;enhancement&#8221; is pointless for me.</p>
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		<title>By: nick s</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/03/the-times-gets-a-revamp/comment-page-1/#comment-150533</link>
		<dc:creator>nick s</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Apr 2006 21:43:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/03/the-times-gets-a-revamp/#comment-150533</guid>
		<description>Built by designers with big, wide monitors for designers with big, wide monitors.

&lt;i&gt;1024 on a laptop (manuactured in the past two years) in no big deal.&lt;/i&gt;

12in iBook, 1024x768, but the top menubar and dock (if you use it) take away that, so that you&#039;ll get 1024x600 or, with the dock at the side, about 900x700. The same applies to the menubar and taskbar and desktop icons in Windows. If you browse at fullscreen, you have a too-wide page that looks very pretty until you try to read it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Built by designers with big, wide monitors for designers with big, wide monitors.</p>

	<p><i>1024 on a laptop (manuactured in the past two years) in no big deal.</i></p>

	<p>12in iBook, 1024&#215;768, but the top menubar and dock (if you use it) take away that, so that you&#8217;ll get 1024&#215;600 or, with the dock at the side, about 900&#215;700. The same applies to the menubar and taskbar and desktop icons in Windows. If you browse at fullscreen, you have a too-wide page that looks very pretty until you try to read it.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/03/the-times-gets-a-revamp/comment-page-1/#comment-150532</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Apr 2006 21:35:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/03/the-times-gets-a-revamp/#comment-150532</guid>
		<description>What has occurred to me (and I delude myself into thinking the world cares) is that the web format is far less flexible than the newspaper format. Lots of piddling little news stories? Lots of little articles on the front pages. One big one? One big article. 

Now, the hierarchy is much more rigid. (I think that&#039;s bad, but feel free to try to convince me otherwise). 

Observation number 2: No ads on the front page of the paper newspaper--why not be really bold and return to that paradigm for the web site? (Yes, I know the answer to that question)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What has occurred to me (and I delude myself into thinking the world cares) is that the web format is far less flexible than the newspaper format. Lots of piddling little news stories? Lots of little articles on the front pages. One big one? One big article.</p>

	<p>Now, the hierarchy is much more rigid. (I think that&#8217;s bad, but feel free to try to convince me otherwise).</p>

	<p>Observation number 2: No ads on the front page of the paper newspaper&#8212;why not be really bold and return to that paradigm for the web site? (Yes, I know the answer to that question)</p>
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		<title>By: Kieran Healy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/03/the-times-gets-a-revamp/comment-page-1/#comment-150520</link>
		<dc:creator>Kieran Healy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Apr 2006 18:47:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/03/the-times-gets-a-revamp/#comment-150520</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;rather than critiquing the NYT website, which you cannot fix, why no critique your own, which you can&lt;/em&gt;

Send money or kidnap &quot;Khoi Vinh&quot;:http://www.subtraction.com/about/ for us, then.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>rather than critiquing the <span class="caps">NYT</span> website, which you cannot fix, why no critique your own, which you can</em></p>

	<p>Send money or kidnap <a href="<a" title="">Khoi Vinh</a> href=&#8221;http://www.subtraction.com/about/&#8221; rel=&#8221;nofollow&#8221;>http://www.subtraction.com/about/ for us, then.</p>
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		<title>By: lemuel pitkin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/03/the-times-gets-a-revamp/comment-page-1/#comment-150518</link>
		<dc:creator>lemuel pitkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Apr 2006 18:34:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/03/the-times-gets-a-revamp/#comment-150518</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m with Miss R.: rather than critiquing the NYT website, which you cannot fix, why no critique your own, which you can.

To begin with, what&#039;s with the silly contributors setup in the upper left? Now and then I want to look up an old post by a particular writer. I &lt;b&gt;never&lt;/b&gt; want to see a contributor&#039;s bio, but I often do anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m with Miss R.: rather than critiquing the <span class="caps">NYT</span> website, which you cannot fix, why no critique your own, which you can.</p>

	<p>To begin with, what&#8217;s with the silly contributors setup in the upper left? Now and then I want to look up an old post by a particular writer. I <b>never</b> want to see a contributor&#8217;s bio, but I often do anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: joel turnipseed</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/03/the-times-gets-a-revamp/comment-page-1/#comment-150514</link>
		<dc:creator>joel turnipseed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Apr 2006 17:40:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/03/the-times-gets-a-revamp/#comment-150514</guid>
		<description>My first instinct was: Nice. The font size &amp; layout don&#039;t bother me, as I run at 1280 on 19&quot; LCD (is this pretty much the standard now?)--except: Georgia? My pal &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.dack.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Dack&lt;/a&gt; links to an interesting &lt;a href=&quot;http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:fg47eH2fx8IJ:psychology.wichita.edu/surl/usabilitynews/41/onlinetext.htm+font+readability+georgia+times&amp;hl=en&amp;gl=us&amp;ct=clnk&amp;cd=2&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;usability study&lt;/a&gt; that suggests why NYT chose this particular font--though it&#039;s somewhat less &lt;em&gt;readable&lt;/em&gt;, it&#039;s considered by readers to be much more &lt;em&gt;appealing&lt;/em&gt;. 

Also, and I don&#039;t remember this being on previous site: the link to &quot;Today&#039;s Paper&quot; at the top--it&#039;s nice to see what the dead-tree version is running on a given day (as the online version puts me into calendar vertigo whenever someone says they saw something in &quot;today&#039;s NYT&quot; &amp; I immediately check the Web version, which is a mix of yesterday&#039;s, today&#039;s, and tomorrow&#039;s news).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>My first instinct was: Nice. The font size &#038; layout don&#8217;t bother me, as I run at 1280 on 19&#8221; <span class="caps">LCD </span>(is this pretty much the standard now?)&#8212;except: Georgia? My pal <a href="http://www.dack.com" rel="nofollow">Dack</a> links to an interesting <a href="http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:fg47eH2fx8IJ:psychology.wichita.edu/surl/usabilitynews/41/onlinetext.htm+font+readability+georgia+times&#038;hl=en&#038;gl=us&#038;ct=clnk&#038;cd=2" rel="nofollow">usability study</a> that suggests why <span class="caps">NYT</span> chose this particular font&#8212;though it&#8217;s somewhat less <em>readable</em>, it&#8217;s considered by readers to be much more <em>appealing</em>.</p>

	<p>Also, and I don&#8217;t remember this being on previous site: the link to &#8220;Today&#8217;s Paper&#8221; at the top&#8212;it&#8217;s nice to see what the dead-tree version is running on a given day (as the online version puts me into calendar vertigo whenever someone says they saw something in &#8220;today&#8217;s <span class="caps">NYT</span>&#8221; &#038; I immediately check the Web version, which is a mix of yesterday&#8217;s, today&#8217;s, and tomorrow&#8217;s news).</p>
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		<title>By: miss representation</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/03/the-times-gets-a-revamp/comment-page-1/#comment-150512</link>
		<dc:creator>miss representation</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Apr 2006 15:52:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/03/the-times-gets-a-revamp/#comment-150512</guid>
		<description>Oh, if it we are going to nitpick and wave our monitor size, perhaps the good folks at CT should be advised that when set to 1280, the center div (which floats) on the CT site pushes the limit of what are good typesetting standards (90-100 characters at my default Firefox settings). You should consider setting a max width for the page overall so that they center div would max out... 1024 would be nice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oh, if it we are going to nitpick and wave our monitor size, perhaps the good folks at CT should be advised that when set to 1280, the center div (which floats) on the CT site pushes the limit of what are good typesetting standards (90-100 characters at my default Firefox settings). You should consider setting a max width for the page overall so that they center div would max out&#8230; 1024 would be nice.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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