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	<title>Comments on: Darwin Fish</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/06/darwin-fish/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/06/darwin-fish/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: eudoxis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/06/darwin-fish/comment-page-1/#comment-150987</link>
		<dc:creator>eudoxis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Apr 2006 04:07:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4522#comment-150987</guid>
		<description>Richard Bellamy, the New York Times is not explaining evolution in this particular article and it&#039;s taking some semantic liberties that might confuse some readers.  
The real articles can be found &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.nature.com/nature/index.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; here &lt;/a&gt;.   

&lt;i&gt;&quot;What is the evolutionary advantage of “transitional footlike structures” over pectoral fins?&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

We don’t know what the particular advantage is.   One can speculate, but there is no evidence for this species other than what can be determined from morphology. The bones in the fin/limbs were probably not adaptive for life on land at all.  They can bear weight (not necessarily unbuoyed), but that feature may have provided for highly efficient aquatic life rather than life on land.  The early Tetrapods are all thought to have been aquatic.  What these bones do tell us is that the proposed theoretical transition from fin to limb in the lineage of Sarcopterygii (lobe-fin fish) to Tetrapod, is confirmed in these fossils, even in the way in which individual bones are thought to have evolved in a series of gradual changes.

Individual organisms or fossils need not bear the burden of proving or disproving evolution.  They all form part of a gigantic whole from which a very clear picture of evolution emerges.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Richard Bellamy, the New York Times is not explaining evolution in this particular article and it&#8217;s taking some semantic liberties that might confuse some readers.<br />
The real articles can be found <a HREF="http://www.nature.com/nature/index.html" rel="nofollow"> here </a>.</p>

	<p><i>&#8220;What is the evolutionary advantage of &#8220;transitional footlike structures&#8221; over pectoral fins?&#8221;</i></p>

	<p>We don&#8217;t know what the particular advantage is.   One can speculate, but there is no evidence for this species other than what can be determined from morphology. The bones in the fin/limbs were probably not adaptive for life on land at all.  They can bear weight (not necessarily unbuoyed), but that feature may have provided for highly efficient aquatic life rather than life on land.  The early Tetrapods are all thought to have been aquatic.  What these bones do tell us is that the proposed theoretical transition from fin to limb in the lineage of Sarcopterygii (lobe-fin fish) to Tetrapod, is confirmed in these fossils, even in the way in which individual bones are thought to have evolved in a series of gradual changes.</p>

	<p>Individual organisms or fossils need not bear the burden of proving or disproving evolution.  They all form part of a gigantic whole from which a very clear picture of evolution emerges.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve LaBonne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/06/darwin-fish/comment-page-1/#comment-150975</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LaBonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 20:11:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4522#comment-150975</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I did not say otherwise. My annoyance is with the media who play the anti-creationist angle of this, as though that were the reason it is interesting.&lt;/i&gt;
Even more annoyingly, that idiocy unsurprisingly got picked up right away by the Discovery Institute&#039;s propagandists (quote courtesy of PZ Myers):
&lt;blockquote&gt;There&#039;s a problem with the Darwinist position that runs even deeper than this, however: If Darwinian evolution is an undisputed fact, as its chief defenders routinely claim, why is this fossil find being billed as such an crucial piece of evidence?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Arrgh. Right up there with the old &quot;now there are 2 gaps where there was 1&quot; wheeze. These guys must have taken a course of two in logic taught by Steve Fuller.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I did not say otherwise. My annoyance is with the media who play the anti-creationist angle of this, as though that were the reason it is interesting.</i><br />
Even more annoyingly, that idiocy unsurprisingly got picked up right away by the Discovery Institute&#8217;s propagandists (quote courtesy of <span class="caps">PZ </span>Myers):<br />
<blockquote>There&#8217;s a problem with the Darwinist position that runs even deeper than this, however: If Darwinian evolution is an undisputed fact, as its chief defenders routinely claim, why is this fossil find being billed as such an crucial piece of evidence?</blockquote></p>

	<p>Arrgh. Right up there with the old &#8220;now there are 2 gaps where there was 1&#8221; wheeze. These guys must have taken a course of two in logic taught by Steve Fuller.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Bellamy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/06/darwin-fish/comment-page-1/#comment-150972</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Bellamy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 19:20:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4522#comment-150972</guid>
		<description>Eudoxis wrote:

&lt;i&gt;The advantages that these structures conferred were selected. It’s just not the case that selection was anything &lt;b&gt;anticipatory.&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/i&gt;

But the NYT article cited states:

&lt;i&gt;But on closer examination, the scientists found telling anatomical traits of a transitional creature, a fish that is still a fish but has changes that &lt;b&gt;anticipate&lt;/b&gt; the emergence of land animals&lt;/i&gt;

Specifically:

&lt;i&gt;In the fishes&#039; forward fins, the scientists found evidence of limbs in the making. There are the beginnings of digits, proto-wrists, elbows and shoulders.&lt;/i&gt;

All I know is what I read in the article. And the article doesn&#039;t talk about lungs.  It talks about proto-wrists. What is the evolutionary advantage of &quot;transitional footlike structures&quot; over pectoral fins?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Eudoxis wrote:</p>

	<p><i>The advantages that these structures conferred were selected. It&#8217;s just not the case that selection was anything <b>anticipatory.</b></i></p>

	<p>But the <span class="caps">NYT</span> article cited states:</p>

	<p><i>But on closer examination, the scientists found telling anatomical traits of a transitional creature, a fish that is still a fish but has changes that <b>anticipate</b> the emergence of land animals</i></p>

	<p>Specifically:</p>

	<p><i>In the fishes&#8217; forward fins, the scientists found evidence of limbs in the making. There are the beginnings of digits, proto-wrists, elbows and shoulders.</i></p>

	<p>All I know is what I read in the article. And the article doesn&#8217;t talk about lungs.  It talks about proto-wrists. What is the evolutionary advantage of &#8220;transitional footlike structures&#8221; over pectoral fins?</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/06/darwin-fish/comment-page-1/#comment-150936</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 13:43:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4522#comment-150936</guid>
		<description>Agree, totally (#16). A more interesting story (and angle), Bernard Yomtov, is this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/07/science/07evolve.html?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Agree, totally (#16). A more interesting story (and angle), Bernard Yomtov, is this:</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/07/science/07evolve.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/07/science/07evolve.html</a>?</p>
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		<title>By: goatchowder</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/06/darwin-fish/comment-page-1/#comment-150917</link>
		<dc:creator>goatchowder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 09:22:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4522#comment-150917</guid>
		<description>I have to go back to the well on this.... to Bill Hicks:

&quot;The idea of God FUCKING WITH MY HEAD scares the shit out of me!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I have to go back to the well on this&#8230;. to Bill Hicks:</p>

	<p>&#8220;The idea of God <span class="caps">FUCKING WITH MY HEAD</span> scares the shit out of me!&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: Bernard Yomtov</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/06/darwin-fish/comment-page-1/#comment-150902</link>
		<dc:creator>Bernard Yomtov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 01:43:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4522#comment-150902</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Of course this doesn’t finally refute the Creationists. They were refuted long ago.&lt;/i&gt;

I did not say otherwise. My annoyance is with the media who play the anti-creationist angle of this, as though that were the reason it is interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Of course this doesn&#8217;t finally refute the Creationists. They were refuted long ago.</i></p>

	<p>I did not say otherwise. My annoyance is with the media who play the anti-creationist angle of this, as though that were the reason it is interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: Ginger Yellow</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/06/darwin-fish/comment-page-1/#comment-150898</link>
		<dc:creator>Ginger Yellow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 01:00:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4522#comment-150898</guid>
		<description>I said:&lt;blockquote&gt;Well it seems to me that it’s no coincidence that fundamentalism and evangelism/proselytising go hand in hand. They need a constant supply of new, young recruits to replace the ones who wake up and smell the evidence.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The big exception to this, of course, is Judaism. Without proselytisation, the most hardline Orthodox Jews have to shut themselves off from the outside world almost completely to sustain their worldview.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I said:<blockquote>Well it seems to me that it&#8217;s no coincidence that fundamentalism and evangelism/proselytising go hand in hand. They need a constant supply of new, young recruits to replace the ones who wake up and smell the evidence.</blockquote></p>

	<p>The big exception to this, of course, is Judaism. Without proselytisation, the most hardline Orthodox Jews have to shut themselves off from the outside world almost completely to sustain their worldview.</p>
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		<title>By: Ginger Yellow</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/06/darwin-fish/comment-page-1/#comment-150896</link>
		<dc:creator>Ginger Yellow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 00:40:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4522#comment-150896</guid>
		<description>Well it seems to me that it&#039;s no coincidence that fundamentalism and evangelism/proselytising go hand in hand. They need a constant supply of new, young recruits to replace the ones who wake up and smell the evidence. It&#039;s not just &quot;secular empirical science findings&quot; that go against fundamentalism - it&#039;s basic human interaction. Legislating against what you consider sin will not make it disappear, nor will pretending it doesn&#039;t exist. Further, I would argue the rise of radical fundamentalism is closely tied to things, like the overturning of conventional gender roles, that disturb many conservatives deeply. Fundamentalism provides a ready answer for such people to back up their gut instinct that these changes are immoral, and increasingly provides a political (and/or violent) means to reverse those changes, but it&#039;s not an answer that stands up to intellectual scrutiny.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well it seems to me that it&#8217;s no coincidence that fundamentalism and evangelism/proselytising go hand in hand. They need a constant supply of new, young recruits to replace the ones who wake up and smell the evidence. It&#8217;s not just &#8220;secular empirical science findings&#8221; that go against fundamentalism &#8211; it&#8217;s basic human interaction. Legislating against what you consider sin will not make it disappear, nor will pretending it doesn&#8217;t exist. Further, I would argue the rise of radical fundamentalism is closely tied to things, like the overturning of conventional gender roles, that disturb many conservatives deeply. Fundamentalism provides a ready answer for such people to back up their gut instinct that these changes are immoral, and increasingly provides a political (and/or violent) means to reverse those changes, but it&#8217;s not an answer that stands up to intellectual scrutiny.</p>
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		<title>By: eudoxis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/06/darwin-fish/comment-page-1/#comment-150894</link>
		<dc:creator>eudoxis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 00:20:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4522#comment-150894</guid>
		<description>Ginger Yellow:  &lt;i&gt;all of fundamentalism seems to be setting its adherents up for catastrophic loss of faith. &lt;/i&gt;

One would think.  Yet, radical fundamentalism seems to be growing in the world today.  Within a framework of such fundamentalism, one can use a lot handwaving to dismiss secular empirical science findings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ginger Yellow:  <i>all of fundamentalism seems to be setting its adherents up for catastrophic loss of faith. </i></p>

	<p>One would think.  Yet, radical fundamentalism seems to be growing in the world today.  Within a framework of such fundamentalism, one can use a lot handwaving to dismiss secular empirical science findings.</p>
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		<title>By: eudoxis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/06/darwin-fish/comment-page-1/#comment-150893</link>
		<dc:creator>eudoxis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 00:16:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4522#comment-150893</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;If I’m, say, an old-Earth Intelligent Design theorist, isn’t my strongest argument in favor of ID the “evolution” of structures that are useless to the present generation but will become useful millions of years down the road?&lt;/i&gt;

Why?  IDists tend to argue that all morphological and functional features are perfectly designed and useful.  Biologists, on the other hand, will say that there are features that are either uselessly present while other features confer adaptive advantage, or that features fall by the wayside as species adapt.  

In the case of &lt;i&gt;Tiktaalik&lt;/i&gt;, functional advantages can be inferred from changes in ear and limb structure.  The advantages that these structures conferred were selected.  It&#039;s just not the case that selection was anything anticipatory.  The interesting thing is that such changes were previously proposed as necessary steps in the evolution from fishes to tetrapods, but they had not yet been found in the fossil record.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>If I&#8217;m, say, an old-Earth Intelligent Design theorist, isn&#8217;t my strongest argument in favor of ID the &#8220;evolution&#8221; of structures that are useless to the present generation but will become useful millions of years down the road?</i></p>

	<p>Why?  IDists tend to argue that all morphological and functional features are perfectly designed and useful.  Biologists, on the other hand, will say that there are features that are either uselessly present while other features confer adaptive advantage, or that features fall by the wayside as species adapt.</p>

	<p>In the case of <i>Tiktaalik</i>, functional advantages can be inferred from changes in ear and limb structure.  The advantages that these structures conferred were selected.  It&#8217;s just not the case that selection was anything anticipatory.  The interesting thing is that such changes were previously proposed as necessary steps in the evolution from fishes to tetrapods, but they had not yet been found in the fossil record.</p>
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		<title>By: Ginger Yellow</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/06/darwin-fish/comment-page-1/#comment-150892</link>
		<dc:creator>Ginger Yellow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Apr 2006 23:58:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4522#comment-150892</guid>
		<description>Richard - I haven&#039;t looked in detail at the precise adaptations of this find (apart from the more flexible neck), but in general anything that helps fish (or other aquatic creatures) breathe oxygen from the air would help them survive in poorly oxidised water or where water is scarce for part of the year. You might just as well ask: &quot;Why do lungfish exist?&quot;


Teresa - all of fundamentalism seems to be setting its adherents up for catastrophic loss of faith. The denial of non-scriptural evidence, the head-in-the-sand approach to sin (no sex education, for example), the elevation of all-too-human authority figures, and so on. I&#039;m puzzled as to why fundies think fragility of faith is a price worth paying for moral and epistemological certainty. If that certainty can&#039;t withstand rigorous challenge, what good is it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Richard &#8211; I haven&#8217;t looked in detail at the precise adaptations of this find (apart from the more flexible neck), but in general anything that helps fish (or other aquatic creatures) breathe oxygen from the air would help them survive in poorly oxidised water or where water is scarce for part of the year. You might just as well ask: &#8220;Why do lungfish exist?&#8221;</p>


	<p>Teresa &#8211; all of fundamentalism seems to be setting its adherents up for catastrophic loss of faith. The denial of non-scriptural evidence, the head-in-the-sand approach to sin (no sex education, for example), the elevation of all-too-human authority figures, and so on. I&#8217;m puzzled as to why fundies think fragility of faith is a price worth paying for moral and epistemological certainty. If that certainty can&#8217;t withstand rigorous challenge, what good is it?</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/06/darwin-fish/comment-page-1/#comment-150889</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Apr 2006 23:31:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4522#comment-150889</guid>
		<description>So you hate the sin, eh Chris? Franco wrote &#039;Islamists and their apologists&#039;, not &#039;Islamism&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>So you hate the sin, eh Chris? Franco wrote &#8216;Islamists and their apologists&#8217;, not &#8216;Islamism&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Bellamy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/06/darwin-fish/comment-page-1/#comment-150885</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Bellamy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Apr 2006 22:43:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4522#comment-150885</guid>
		<description>Speaking as a scientist, what exactly is the selective advantage of &quot;changes that anticipate the emergence of land animals&quot; in fish that admittedly lived in the water, but would someday permit them to live on land?

If I&#039;m, say, an old-Earth Intelligent Design theorist, isn&#039;t my strongest argument in favor of ID the &quot;evolution&quot; of structures that are useless to the present generation but will become useful millions of years down the road?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Speaking as a scientist, what exactly is the selective advantage of &#8220;changes that anticipate the emergence of land animals&#8221; in fish that admittedly lived in the water, but would someday permit them to live on land?</p>

	<p>If I&#8217;m, say, an old-Earth Intelligent Design theorist, isn&#8217;t my strongest argument in favor of ID the &#8220;evolution&#8221; of structures that are useless to the present generation but will become useful millions of years down the road?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Bertram</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/06/darwin-fish/comment-page-1/#comment-150881</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Bertram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Apr 2006 22:05:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4522#comment-150881</guid>
		<description>Ah yes, defences of Islamism are two-a-penny here at CT. What were you smoking again Franco?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ah yes, defences of Islamism are two-a-penny here at CT. What were you smoking again Franco?</p>
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		<title>By: Franco</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/06/darwin-fish/comment-page-1/#comment-150878</link>
		<dc:creator>Franco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Apr 2006 21:43:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4522#comment-150878</guid>
		<description>Steve Labonne (good name!),

Take it easy. I am a biochemist, myself, and would be soon out of funding were Creationism to be re-established. It&#039;s just that I am also dismayed that certain CTers&#039; antipathy to &#039;hard&#039; liberalism (or is it just an artificial contrarianism?) has sometimes, um, evolved into a tortuous defence of Islamists and their apologists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Steve Labonne (good name!),</p>

	<p>Take it easy. I am a biochemist, myself, and would be soon out of funding were Creationism to be re-established. It&#8217;s just that I am also dismayed that certain CTers&#8217; antipathy to &#8216;hard&#8217; liberalism (or is it just an artificial contrarianism?) has sometimes, um, evolved into a tortuous defence of Islamists and their apologists.</p>
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