Comments on: Last Word on Mearsheimer/Walt http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/17/last-word-on-mearsheimerwalt/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Mon, 13 Feb 2012 09:29:41 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Mitchell Young http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/17/last-word-on-mearsheimerwalt/comment-page-1/#comment-152643 Mitchell Young Thu, 20 Apr 2006 18:39:36 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4565#comment-152643 <i> EU has been a Christian club for too long</i> Anyone who has been to Viena realizes that the concept of Europe is intimately tied to Christianity. To 'integrate' Turkey would destroy the very roots of the EU. EU has been a Christian club for too long

Anyone who has been to Viena realizes that the concept of Europe is intimately tied to Christianity. To ‘integrate’ Turkey would destroy the very roots of the EU.

]]> By: Kevin Donoghue http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/17/last-word-on-mearsheimerwalt/comment-page-1/#comment-152333 Kevin Donoghue Wed, 19 Apr 2006 13:05:13 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4565#comment-152333 Donald, I agree with you about Sadat. My point was merely that US backing for Israel made it easier for him to leave Assad in the lurch. Donald, I agree with you about Sadat. My point was merely that US backing for Israel made it easier for him to leave Assad in the lurch.

]]> By: Aidan Kehoe http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/17/last-word-on-mearsheimerwalt/comment-page-1/#comment-152302 Aidan Kehoe Wed, 19 Apr 2006 07:51:51 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4565#comment-152302 #26: <blockquote> </blockquote><blockquote>“Their [people in the Middle East]current hate is a result, mostly, of the current unconditional support of the US for Israel.”</blockquote> <i>That isn’t obvious at all. For example, their current hate could be because we turned back Saddam on Kuwait and then kept him contained with sanctions which he used as propaganda (starving widows etc). It could be because Saudi Arabia asked us to have some troops on their soil in response to fear of Saddam. It could be because they fear the promiscuous temptation of our culture.</i> It predates all those things, and didn't exist (or at least, didn't exist with remotely the same level of vehemence) prior to explicit US support for Israel. Keep coming with the suggestions! #26:


“Their [people in the Middle East]current hate is a result, mostly, of the current unconditional support of the US for Israel.”

That isn’t obvious at all. For example, their current hate could be because we turned back Saddam on Kuwait and then kept him contained with sanctions which he used as propaganda (starving widows etc). It could be because Saudi Arabia asked us to have some troops on their soil in response to fear of Saddam. It could be because they fear the promiscuous temptation of our culture.

It predates all those things, and didn’t exist (or at least, didn’t exist with remotely the same level of vehemence) prior to explicit US support for Israel. Keep coming with the suggestions!

]]> By: Henry http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/17/last-word-on-mearsheimerwalt/comment-page-1/#comment-152243 Henry Tue, 18 Apr 2006 23:52:32 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4565#comment-152243 There was discussion of the EU option by several Israeli academics, and indeed a trial balloon floated by a member of the Israeli government a few years back (albeit without any discussion of the borders issue). But yeah, I think it would be a great idea in principle (I imagine the devil would be in the details of course, but anyway). I also think it would be good for the EU - ideally, perhaps an Israel-Turkey package deal (the EU has been a Christian club for too long). There was discussion of the EU option by several Israeli academics, and indeed a trial balloon floated by a member of the Israeli government a few years back (albeit without any discussion of the borders issue). But yeah, I think it would be a great idea in principle (I imagine the devil would be in the details of course, but anyway). I also think it would be good for the EU - ideally, perhaps an Israel-Turkey package deal (the EU has been a Christian club for too long).

]]> By: Jonathan Edelstein http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/17/last-word-on-mearsheimerwalt/comment-page-1/#comment-152241 Jonathan Edelstein Tue, 18 Apr 2006 23:19:53 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4565#comment-152241 The issue has come up for discussion a few times. My understanding is that NATO has rejected it, due to a combination of logistical reasons and reluctance to buy into a Balkan-style irredentist conflict. But yeah, NATO and EU membership in return for the '67 borders is a great idea. The issue has come up for discussion a few times. My understanding is that NATO has rejected it, due to a combination of logistical reasons and reluctance to buy into a Balkan-style irredentist conflict.

But yeah, NATO and EU membership in return for the ‘67 borders is a great idea.

]]> By: Donald Johnson http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/17/last-word-on-mearsheimerwalt/comment-page-1/#comment-152239 Donald Johnson Tue, 18 Apr 2006 22:58:18 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4565#comment-152239 That Nato membership subject to 1967 borders seems brilliant to me. Obviously someone must have thought of it before and for some reason it's been rejected. Kevin said somewhere above-- "It gave Sadat an excuse to make peace. After the 1973 war he argued that Egypt couldn’t hope to defeat Israel as long as Israel had US backing" Sadat was making peace overtures in 1971, --Seymour Hersh talks about this in his Kissinger book. So does Avi Shlaim (The Iron Wall). Israel saw no reason to take Arab military power seriously post 67 and pre 73. Of course they won the latter war too, but the Arab armies performed much better and gave them a brief scare. That Nato membership subject to 1967 borders seems brilliant to me. Obviously someone must have thought of it before and for some reason it’s been rejected.

Kevin said somewhere above—“It gave Sadat an excuse to make peace. After the 1973 war he argued that Egypt couldn’t hope to defeat Israel as long as Israel had US backing”

Sadat was making peace overtures in 1971,—Seymour Hersh talks about this in his Kissinger book. So does Avi Shlaim (The Iron Wall). Israel saw no reason to take Arab military power seriously post 67 and pre 73. Of course they won the latter war too, but the Arab armies performed much better and gave them a brief scare.

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/17/last-word-on-mearsheimerwalt/comment-page-1/#comment-152231 abb1 Tue, 18 Apr 2006 21:16:55 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4565#comment-152231 Israel doesn't normally accept any security guarantees from any third party, any state or organization. They want to be in charge of their own security, not to mention that they aren't likely to accept any conditions that come with the membership. They always reject these propositions, as far as I know. Israel doesn’t normally accept any security guarantees from any third party, any state or organization. They want to be in charge of their own security, not to mention that they aren’t likely to accept any conditions that come with the membership. They always reject these propositions, as far as I know.

]]> By: soru http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/17/last-word-on-mearsheimerwalt/comment-page-1/#comment-152218 soru Tue, 18 Apr 2006 19:36:06 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4565#comment-152218 Completely agree, especially as NATO is pretty much looking for a role these days. I do wonder why it never gets suggested. Completely agree, especially as NATO is pretty much looking for a role these days.

I do wonder why it never gets suggested.

]]> By: FTreader http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/17/last-word-on-mearsheimerwalt/comment-page-1/#comment-152213 FTreader Tue, 18 Apr 2006 18:37:15 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4565#comment-152213 Soru, I would argue that an Israel within pre-1967 borders would be a candidate for both NATO and EU membership. Elegant, no? Soru,

I would argue that an Israel within pre-1967 borders would be a candidate for both NATO and EU membership.

Elegant, no?

]]> By: Jonathan Edelstein http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/17/last-word-on-mearsheimerwalt/comment-page-1/#comment-152094 Jonathan Edelstein Tue, 18 Apr 2006 00:00:50 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4565#comment-152094 <i>Jonathan, why not just take that whole pipe and bring it, say, to MIT by offering each one of these engineers and scientists a green card and high salary? Wouldn’t it be a much more direct and obvious way to serve American interests in this case?</i> Maybe it would. There are also several reasons why it might not - for instance, the cost of paying all the engineers and rebuilding their facilities might be prohibitive as compared to letting Israel pay them and then skimming the results. (And yes, Israeli government investment in high-tech and military R & D is greater than aid received annually from the United States.) I have no idea how the costs stack up against the benefits, though. Maybe Mearsheimer and Walt should do the math? Jonathan, why not just take that whole pipe and bring it, say, to MIT by offering each one of these engineers and scientists a green card and high salary? Wouldn’t it be a much more direct and obvious way to serve American interests in this case?

Maybe it would. There are also several reasons why it might not – for instance, the cost of paying all the engineers and rebuilding their facilities might be prohibitive as compared to letting Israel pay them and then skimming the results. (And yes, Israeli government investment in high-tech and military R & D is greater than aid received annually from the United States.)

I have no idea how the costs stack up against the benefits, though. Maybe Mearsheimer and Walt should do the math?

]]> By: lou reed http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/17/last-word-on-mearsheimerwalt/comment-page-1/#comment-152092 lou reed Mon, 17 Apr 2006 23:28:24 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4565#comment-152092 It would clear a few things up for me if someone could make the case that feith/perle/wolfowitz etc. organised the invasion of iraq for israeli security purposes. If they thought that > 1. israel's security is at risk from arab nations 2. invading iraq would alleviate this pressure > then those guys are morons as an aside, i've flipped through bruce lawrence's OBL collection of public messages, and OBL is pretty clear (if you take him at face value) about what pisses him off: israeli treatment of palestinians, american sanctions on iraq, american troops in saudia, to name a few It would clear a few things up for me if someone could make the case that feith/perle/wolfowitz etc. organised the invasion of iraq for israeli security purposes. If they thought that >

1. israel’s security is at risk from arab nations
2. invading iraq would alleviate this pressure >

then those guys are morons

as an aside, i’ve flipped through bruce lawrence’s OBL collection of public messages, and OBL is pretty clear (if you take him at face value) about what pisses him off: israeli treatment of palestinians, american sanctions on iraq, american troops in saudia, to name a few

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/17/last-word-on-mearsheimerwalt/comment-page-1/#comment-152090 abb1 Mon, 17 Apr 2006 22:51:30 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4565#comment-152090 Jonathan, why not just take that whole pipe and bring it, say, to MIT by offering each one of these engineers and scientists a green card and high salary? Wouldn't it be a much more direct and obvious way to serve American interests in this case? Jonathan, why not just take that whole pipe and bring it, say, to MIT by offering each one of these engineers and scientists a green card and high salary? Wouldn’t it be a much more direct and obvious way to serve American interests in this case?

]]> By: Kieran Healy http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/17/last-word-on-mearsheimerwalt/comment-page-1/#comment-152081 Kieran Healy Mon, 17 Apr 2006 22:07:05 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4565#comment-152081 ftReader -- your comments were in the moderation queue, they weren't deleted by Henry. ftReader—your comments were in the moderation queue, they weren’t deleted by Henry.

]]> By: rollo http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/17/last-word-on-mearsheimerwalt/comment-page-1/#comment-152079 rollo Mon, 17 Apr 2006 21:52:02 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4565#comment-152079 It's certainly much easier to debate these things around ideas of "national interest" than around something so evanescent as moral principle. But then without moral principle national interest takes on the character of a buzzing insect hive more than the vivid aspirations of human beings. Though you could, without an exhorbitant amount of work, make a case for the national interest being ultimately parallel to and contingent upon moral goals, even when those moral goals aren't being fully articulated. In fact, without that moral component, national interest seems to rest almost entirely on economic determinants. Or, in a pinch, the preservation of actual boundaries, I suppose.<blockquote>.</blockquote>Strict adherence to <i>Robert's Rules of Order</i> has much to recommend it for the elevation of civil discourse and consequent social progress over time, but it's useless to paramedics. This seems apt for some reason. It’s certainly much easier to debate these things around ideas of “national interest” than around something so evanescent as moral principle. But then without moral principle national interest takes on the character of a buzzing insect hive more than the vivid aspirations of human beings.
Though you could, without an exhorbitant amount of work, make a case for the national interest being ultimately parallel to and contingent upon moral goals, even when those moral goals aren’t being fully articulated.
In fact, without that moral component, national interest seems to rest almost entirely on economic determinants. Or, in a pinch, the preservation of actual boundaries, I suppose.
.
Strict adherence to Robert’s Rules of Order has much to recommend it for the elevation of civil discourse and consequent social progress over time, but it’s useless to paramedics.
This seems apt for some reason.

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/17/last-word-on-mearsheimerwalt/comment-page-1/#comment-152065 abb1 Mon, 17 Apr 2006 20:23:04 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4565#comment-152065 What's wrong with my comment 24? I said that the resentment for the Gulf war and Iraqi sanctions can be traced to US-Israel policy as well. It's a fact and it's relevant. What’s wrong with my comment 24? I said that the resentment for the Gulf war and Iraqi sanctions can be traced to US-Israel policy as well. It’s a fact and it’s relevant.

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