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	<title>Comments on: Galbraith dies</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/29/galbraith-dies/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Becker and Murphy on advertising</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/29/galbraith-dies/comment-page-2/#comment-155386</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Becker and Murphy on advertising</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 May 2006 08:47:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/29/galbraith-dies/#comment-155386</guid>
		<description>[...] During the discussion following the death of JK Galbraith, the issue of advertising came up. In the Affluent Society Galbraith dismissed the idea that advertising is informative, and argued instead that it was used to manufacture demand for goods and services people would otherwise not want. The NYT obit suggested that Gary Becker and George Stigler had disproved this, a proposition that attracted some attention, mainly focusing on the work of Becker and Murphy. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] During the discussion following the death of <span class="caps">JK </span>Galbraith, the issue of advertising came up. In the Affluent Society Galbraith dismissed the idea that advertising is informative, and argued instead that it was used to manufacture demand for goods and services people would otherwise not want. The <span class="caps">NYT</span> obit suggested that Gary Becker and George Stigler had disproved this, a proposition that attracted some attention, mainly focusing on the work of Becker and Murphy. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: jake</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/29/galbraith-dies/comment-page-2/#comment-154075</link>
		<dc:creator>jake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 May 2006 19:01:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/29/galbraith-dies/#comment-154075</guid>
		<description>My anecdote wasn&#039;t meant as an attack on Galbraith or a suggestion that he was a hypocrite.  I suspect Prof. Stevens was merely gently mocking the habit of stereotyping, something many of us may be prey to, even as undergraduates.

Hell, if I had the money, I&#039;d fly first class.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>My anecdote wasn&#8217;t meant as an attack on Galbraith or a suggestion that he was a hypocrite.  I suspect Prof. Stevens was merely gently mocking the habit of stereotyping, something many of us may be prey to, even as undergraduates.</p>

	<p>Hell, if I had the money, I&#8217;d fly first class.</p>
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		<title>By: DC</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/29/galbraith-dies/comment-page-1/#comment-154021</link>
		<dc:creator>DC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 May 2006 15:20:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/29/galbraith-dies/#comment-154021</guid>
		<description>God bless them, sure, but I hope you don&#039;t think the revolution should spare them. (Slavoj Zizek has a right go at Soros, Bono et al - &quot;liberal communists&quot; - in the present London Review of Books, by the way.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>God bless them, sure, but I hope you don&#8217;t think the revolution should spare them. (Slavoj Zizek has a right go at Soros, Bono et al &#8211; &#8220;liberal communists&#8221; &#8211; in the present London Review of Books, by the way.)</p>
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		<title>By: Dan K</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/29/galbraith-dies/comment-page-1/#comment-153993</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 May 2006 12:04:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/29/galbraith-dies/#comment-153993</guid>
		<description>Roger, I second that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Roger, I second that.</p>
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		<title>By: roger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/29/galbraith-dies/comment-page-1/#comment-153940</link>
		<dc:creator>roger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 May 2006 23:39:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/29/galbraith-dies/#comment-153940</guid>
		<description>The only time the right wing allows class resentment a place is if the resentment is aimed at some wealthy person who is not pursuing his self interest and an ideology slightly to the right of H.L. Hunt - some wealthy person who is , actually asking for greater investment in the public good. At that point, the rich (a class so sacred to the Forbes crowd that they believe in sacrificing more and more goods to em, and throwing in the climate of this planet as lagniappe) suddenly turn into a pack of unbearable snobs, soooo not populist like our millionaire Andover prez, and just not all right at all.

Well, I think it was Mandelstam who wrote a poem, in the stalinist years, that begins something like &#039;raise a glass of champagne...&#039; just to provoke the pissants.  I believe it might be time to raise a glass of champagne to the limousine liberals, to the Keynes-es that make buckets of money on Wall Street and have sense enough to call for national health care plans, to the wealthy who aren&#039;t greedy, resentful pigs, nor furthering the ideology of greedy, resentful pigs - to the ones skiing in Gstaad who are calling for employment policies that don&#039;t lead to mass layoffs to make CEO stock options more valuable, to the Kennedys, the Bernsteins, the Soroses, to all the ones who are too fucking haughty to endorse slimy warmongering schemes to cream money off the taxpayer using national security as a mask. God bless them every one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The only time the right wing allows class resentment a place is if the resentment is aimed at some wealthy person who is not pursuing his self interest and an ideology slightly to the right of H.L. Hunt &#8211; some wealthy person who is , actually asking for greater investment in the public good. At that point, the rich (a class so sacred to the Forbes crowd that they believe in sacrificing more and more goods to em, and throwing in the climate of this planet as lagniappe) suddenly turn into a pack of unbearable snobs, soooo not populist like our millionaire Andover prez, and just not all right at all.</p>

	<p>Well, I think it was Mandelstam who wrote a poem, in the stalinist years, that begins something like &#8216;raise a glass of champagne&#8230;&#8217; just to provoke the pissants.  I believe it might be time to raise a glass of champagne to the limousine liberals, to the Keynes-es that make buckets of money on Wall Street and have sense enough to call for national health care plans, to the wealthy who aren&#8217;t greedy, resentful pigs, nor furthering the ideology of greedy, resentful pigs &#8211; to the ones skiing in Gstaad who are calling for employment policies that don&#8217;t lead to mass layoffs to make <span class="caps">CEO</span> stock options more valuable, to the Kennedys, the Bernsteins, the Soroses, to all the ones who are too fucking haughty to endorse slimy warmongering schemes to cream money off the taxpayer using national security as a mask. God bless them every one.</p>
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		<title>By: dave heasman</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/29/galbraith-dies/comment-page-1/#comment-153936</link>
		<dc:creator>dave heasman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 May 2006 22:15:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/29/galbraith-dies/#comment-153936</guid>
		<description>&quot;What was this anecdote meant to show? Galbraith was a very rich man&quot;

 He was also a very tall man. Economy class would have been crippling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;What was this anecdote meant to show? Galbraith was a very rich man&#8221;</p>

	<p>He was also a very tall man. Economy class would have been crippling.</p>
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		<title>By: H-Bob</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/29/galbraith-dies/comment-page-1/#comment-153934</link>
		<dc:creator>H-Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 May 2006 22:08:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/29/galbraith-dies/#comment-153934</guid>
		<description>In response to #2, 4, 5, etc.: the following joke illustrates the relationship of economic theories to reality: 

A physicist, a chemist &amp; an economist are stranded on a desert island.  A can of food washes up.  The three discuss methods of opening the can:
  the physicist says that if we drop the can from the top of the palm tree onto the rock, the can will puncture but not spill the contents;
   the chemist says that if the can is heated to a specific temperature, the lid can be removed;
   the economist says &#039;assume a can-opener&#039;. . . .

With respect to advertising, Galbraith claimed that advertising creates demand for unnecessary products: given that humans do not require caffeinated sugar-water, alcoholic beverages, or portable music players, etc., Galbraith&#039;s contention seems unassailable.

Galbraith probably had to fly first-class due to his height.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>In response to #2, 4, 5, etc.: the following joke illustrates the relationship of economic theories to reality:</p>

	<p>A physicist, a chemist &#038; an economist are stranded on a desert island.  A can of food washes up.  The three discuss methods of opening the can:<br />
the physicist says that if we drop the can from the top of the palm tree onto the rock, the can will puncture but not spill the contents;<br />
the chemist says that if the can is heated to a specific temperature, the lid can be removed;<br />
the economist says &#8216;assume a can-opener&#8217;. . . .</p>

	<p>With respect to advertising, Galbraith claimed that advertising creates demand for unnecessary products: given that humans do not require caffeinated sugar-water, alcoholic beverages, or portable music players, etc., Galbraith&#8217;s contention seems unassailable.</p>

	<p>Galbraith probably had to fly first-class due to his height.</p>
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		<title>By: PW</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/29/galbraith-dies/comment-page-1/#comment-153930</link>
		<dc:creator>PW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 May 2006 21:51:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/29/galbraith-dies/#comment-153930</guid>
		<description>If you&#039;d known him or seen him, Jake, you&#039;d know the poor guy&#039;s legs were about as long as the aisle in first class!  Even us shrimps (under 6&#039;7&quot;) have some trouble in the back of the plane!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If you&#8217;d known him or seen him, Jake, you&#8217;d know the poor guy&#8217;s legs were about as long as the aisle in first class!  Even us shrimps (under 6&#8217;7&#8221;) have some trouble in the back of the plane!</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/29/galbraith-dies/comment-page-1/#comment-153928</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 May 2006 20:33:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/29/galbraith-dies/#comment-153928</guid>
		<description>What was this anecdote meant to show?  Galbraith was a very rich man; everyone knows that.  He also wrote lots of books aimed at defending the capitalist system (although he, unlike many other economists, didn&#039;t call it &quot;the free market&quot;).

In fact, as the example of Ryanair etc show us, the normal concept of first class air travel probably wouldn&#039;t exist in a genuinely free airlines market (a genuinely free market in airlines is, as far as I am aware, an experiment that has not been attempted anywhere in the world ever).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What was this anecdote meant to show?  Galbraith was a very rich man; everyone knows that.  He also wrote lots of books aimed at defending the capitalist system (although he, unlike many other economists, didn&#8217;t call it &#8220;the free market&#8221;).</p>

	<p>In fact, as the example of Ryanair etc show us, the normal concept of first class air travel probably wouldn&#8217;t exist in a genuinely free airlines market (a genuinely free market in airlines is, as far as I am aware, an experiment that has not been attempted anywhere in the world ever).</p>
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		<title>By: jake</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/29/galbraith-dies/comment-page-1/#comment-153927</link>
		<dc:creator>jake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 May 2006 20:27:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/29/galbraith-dies/#comment-153927</guid>
		<description>My economics professor in college once told an anecdote about Galbraith I rather enjoyed.  He happened to have been at a conference with Galbraith and Milton Friedman, and all three were taking the same flight out of whatever city this was.  They boarded the plane together, still chatting, but while he and Friedman walked back to coach, Galbraith left them, taking his seat in first class.

Ah, the free market . . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>My economics professor in college once told an anecdote about Galbraith I rather enjoyed.  He happened to have been at a conference with Galbraith and Milton Friedman, and all three were taking the same flight out of whatever city this was.  They boarded the plane together, still chatting, but while he and Friedman walked back to coach, Galbraith left them, taking his seat in first class.</p>

	<p>Ah, the free market . . . .</p>
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		<title>By: Barkley Rosser</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/29/galbraith-dies/comment-page-1/#comment-153926</link>
		<dc:creator>Barkley Rosser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 May 2006 20:19:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/29/galbraith-dies/#comment-153926</guid>
		<description>The argument above that Becker (and Stigler also) emphasize the stability of peoples&#039; preferences versus Galbraith&#039;s belief that people&#039;s preferences can be manipulated by advertising is indeed a central issue.  Although by and large, B and M (and S) assert the stability of preferences, to the extent they are willing to allow for their instability, they still argue for hardline methodological individualism, that people are free to pick their preferences and choose what they want.

This is ultimately ideological.  It is not a &quot;proof&quot; in any sense as the NY Times ignorantly claimed in its embarrassingly shameful and error-filled obit.  I would note that while these things are hard to prove empirically one way or the other, the current trend is to view tastes and preferences as very malleable and unstable, subject to context and all kinds of things.  This is coming out of behavioral and experimental economics.

The traditional split between &quot;informative&quot; advertising and not is that supposedly the former moves one along a demand curve, it &quot;informs&quot; about prices, especially about sales when prices are especially low. Non-informative, or manipulative, supposedly moves peoples&#039; demand curves, either by changing their preferences, or by &quot;informing&quot; people that their product will fit in somehow with their preferences, satisfying an image or life style they seek to achieve or exhibit to get social approval and maybe even to get laid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The argument above that Becker (and Stigler also) emphasize the stability of peoples&#8217; preferences versus Galbraith&#8217;s belief that people&#8217;s preferences can be manipulated by advertising is indeed a central issue.  Although by and large, B and M (and S) assert the stability of preferences, to the extent they are willing to allow for their instability, they still argue for hardline methodological individualism, that people are free to pick their preferences and choose what they want.</p>

	<p>This is ultimately ideological.  It is not a &#8220;proof&#8221; in any sense as the <span class="caps">NY </span>Times ignorantly claimed in its embarrassingly shameful and error-filled obit.  I would note that while these things are hard to prove empirically one way or the other, the current trend is to view tastes and preferences as very malleable and unstable, subject to context and all kinds of things.  This is coming out of behavioral and experimental economics.</p>

	<p>The traditional split between &#8220;informative&#8221; advertising and not is that supposedly the former moves one along a demand curve, it &#8220;informs&#8221; about prices, especially about sales when prices are especially low. Non-informative, or manipulative, supposedly moves peoples&#8217; demand curves, either by changing their preferences, or by &#8220;informing&#8221; people that their product will fit in somehow with their preferences, satisfying an image or life style they seek to achieve or exhibit to get social approval and maybe even to get laid.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/29/galbraith-dies/comment-page-1/#comment-153924</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 May 2006 19:33:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/29/galbraith-dies/#comment-153924</guid>
		<description>Neel:

&lt;i&gt;It’s not like television is a basic human need or anything&lt;/i&gt;

I think revealed preference would suggest otherwise; plenty of villages in India or Africa where you can see satellite dishes but no nearby wells (without even getting into the plasma-screen TVs beloved of welfare policy debates).

Also, does Becker or Galbraith&#039;s theory fit corporate behaviour better?  Companies do plan product cycles; they do plan advertising &quot;campaigns&quot; and they do it for a reason, that being because it works.  You can make stable and independent preferences do the job of a sensible theory of advertising in the same way that you can make a butterknife do the job of a Phillips screwdriver, but that doesn&#039;t mean that a butterknife is the best (because simplest) tool for the job, or that Phillips screws were designed by people who were thinking about butterknives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Neel:</p>

	<p><i>It&#8217;s not like television is a basic human need or anything</i></p>

	<p>I think revealed preference would suggest otherwise; plenty of villages in India or Africa where you can see satellite dishes but no nearby wells (without even getting into the plasma-screen TVs beloved of welfare policy debates).</p>

	<p>Also, does Becker or Galbraith&#8217;s theory fit corporate behaviour better?  Companies do plan product cycles; they do plan advertising &#8220;campaigns&#8221; and they do it for a reason, that being because it works.  You can make stable and independent preferences do the job of a sensible theory of advertising in the same way that you can make a butterknife do the job of a Phillips screwdriver, but that doesn&#8217;t mean that a butterknife is the best (because simplest) tool for the job, or that Phillips screws were designed by people who were thinking about butterknives.</p>
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		<title>By: Anderson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/29/galbraith-dies/comment-page-1/#comment-153919</link>
		<dc:creator>Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 May 2006 17:58:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/29/galbraith-dies/#comment-153919</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I’ve spent a considerable amount of time &lt;b&gt;studying advertising at the graduate level&lt;/b&gt;. I can tell you what people who are responsible for showing concrete results for money spent on advertising believe: &lt;b&gt;The primary goal of effective advertising is to inform the consumer&lt;/b&gt;; anything else is a waste of money.&lt;/i&gt;

What a damning indictment of one person&#039;s graduate program.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I&#8217;ve spent a considerable amount of time <b>studying advertising at the graduate level</b>. I can tell you what people who are responsible for showing concrete results for money spent on advertising believe: <b>The primary goal of effective advertising is to inform the consumer</b>; anything else is a waste of money.</i></p>

	<p>What a damning indictment of one person&#8217;s graduate program.</p>
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		<title>By: Cian</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/29/galbraith-dies/comment-page-1/#comment-153917</link>
		<dc:creator>Cian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 May 2006 17:31:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/29/galbraith-dies/#comment-153917</guid>
		<description>If I recall correctly, Galbraith&#039;s point was that the informational model of advertising was insufficient. He didn&#039;t argue that informational advertising didn&#039;t exist.

Having like Daniel spent far more time around advertising types than is probably rational, I do find some of the arguments about advertising here a little odd. Many forms of advertising are explicitly created to increase demand for a certain class of product. A lot of money has been spent on research over the last 40 years to find out how to do this effectively.

One of the most obvious ways you increase demand is by associating a product with a certain lifestyle/class/aspiration in the viewers mind.

A different kind of advertising seeks to reinforce/strengthen demand. People Like Us advertising.

And some advertising tells you that ASDA is cheaper, or they have good quality products. Which may even be true (does anyone ever check?).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If I recall correctly, Galbraith&#8217;s point was that the informational model of advertising was insufficient. He didn&#8217;t argue that informational advertising didn&#8217;t exist.</p>

	<p>Having like Daniel spent far more time around advertising types than is probably rational, I do find some of the arguments about advertising here a little odd. Many forms of advertising are explicitly created to increase demand for a certain class of product. A lot of money has been spent on research over the last 40 years to find out how to do this effectively.</p>

	<p>One of the most obvious ways you increase demand is by associating a product with a certain lifestyle/class/aspiration in the viewers mind.</p>

	<p>A different kind of advertising seeks to reinforce/strengthen demand. People Like Us advertising.</p>

	<p>And some advertising tells you that <span class="caps">ASDA</span> is cheaper, or they have good quality products. Which may even be true (does anyone ever check?).</p>
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		<title>By: etat</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/29/galbraith-dies/comment-page-1/#comment-153904</link>
		<dc:creator>etat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 May 2006 15:28:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/04/29/galbraith-dies/#comment-153904</guid>
		<description>re: 30 &amp; 31
Anecdotally this makes sense. Think of a football team  as a brand, and supporters as people who will follow not just the sporting fortunes of the team, but its &#039;brand&#039; fortunes as well. Better yet, think of the way Apple&#039;s fortunes is in some sense a barometer of its economic status. Watching adverts for wildly popular Apple products is a way of affirming both an allegiance and one&#039;s own good taste/judgement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>re: 30 &#038; 31<br />
Anecdotally this makes sense. Think of a football team  as a brand, and supporters as people who will follow not just the sporting fortunes of the team, but its &#8216;brand&#8217; fortunes as well. Better yet, think of the way Apple&#8217;s fortunes is in some sense a barometer of its economic status. Watching adverts for wildly popular Apple products is a way of affirming both an allegiance and one&#8217;s own good taste/judgement.</p>
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