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	<title>Comments on: Surprisingly, Darfur is a place in Sudan as well as a rhetorical device</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/03/surprisingly-darfur-is-a-place-in-sudan-as-well-as-a-rhetorical-device/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/03/surprisingly-darfur-is-a-place-in-sudan-as-well-as-a-rhetorical-device/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/03/surprisingly-darfur-is-a-place-in-sudan-as-well-as-a-rhetorical-device/comment-page-1/#comment-154878</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 May 2006 09:52:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/03/surprisingly-darfur-is-a-place-in-sudan-as-well-as-a-rhetorical-device/#comment-154878</guid>
		<description>What’s wrong with a dictatorship as long as it results in less injustice and suffering than an elected government would under the circumstances? 

IOW, is governing by emergency decree ever justified and if it is, what&#039;s the rule that determines whether it&#039;s justified or not?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What&#8217;s wrong with a dictatorship as long as it results in less injustice and suffering than an elected government would under the circumstances?</p>

	<p><span class="caps">IOW</span>, is governing by emergency decree ever justified and if it is, what&#8217;s the rule that determines whether it&#8217;s justified or not?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/03/surprisingly-darfur-is-a-place-in-sudan-as-well-as-a-rhetorical-device/comment-page-1/#comment-154817</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 May 2006 14:53:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/03/surprisingly-darfur-is-a-place-in-sudan-as-well-as-a-rhetorical-device/#comment-154817</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; Even otherwise, ipso facto, what’s wrong with a dictatorship as long as war and injustice do not occur?&lt;/i&gt;

A question rather similar to &quot;what&#039;s wrong with keeping a pig in the house, as long as it doesn&#039;t shit on the carpet?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i> Even otherwise, ipso facto, what&#8217;s wrong with a dictatorship as long as war and injustice do not occur?</i></p>

	<p>A question rather similar to &#8220;what&#8217;s wrong with keeping a pig in the house, as long as it doesn&#8217;t shit on the carpet?&#8221; </p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: lurker</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/03/surprisingly-darfur-is-a-place-in-sudan-as-well-as-a-rhetorical-device/comment-page-1/#comment-154635</link>
		<dc:creator>lurker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 May 2006 11:05:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/03/surprisingly-darfur-is-a-place-in-sudan-as-well-as-a-rhetorical-device/#comment-154635</guid>
		<description>Oui. Very true, soru. After all, I can speak only for myself. A very unfortunate situation, for apparently, you, soru, and many others I gather, can not only speak for yourself but also for untold millions across continents and cultures and histories! Magnificent! An arrow sorely missing in my quiver, I admit.

But I agree, this is moving away from the topic, and I too am not very keen on discussing with know-it-alls.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oui. Very true, soru. After all, I can speak only for myself. A very unfortunate situation, for apparently, you, soru, and many others I gather, can not only speak for yourself but also for untold millions across continents and cultures and histories! Magnificent! An arrow sorely missing in my quiver, I admit.</p>

	<p>But I agree, this is moving away from the topic, and I too am not very keen on discussing with know-it-alls.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: soru</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/03/surprisingly-darfur-is-a-place-in-sudan-as-well-as-a-rhetorical-device/comment-page-1/#comment-154633</link>
		<dc:creator>soru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 May 2006 10:43:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/03/surprisingly-darfur-is-a-place-in-sudan-as-well-as-a-rhetorical-device/#comment-154633</guid>
		<description>I think the starting point to a discussion I am not really all that interested in having would be if you replaced the word &#039;Africa&#039; with the word &#039;I&#039; in the above post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think the starting point to a discussion I am not really all that interested in having would be if you replaced the word &#8216;Africa&#8217; with the word &#8216;I&#8217; in the above post.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: lurker</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/03/surprisingly-darfur-is-a-place-in-sudan-as-well-as-a-rhetorical-device/comment-page-1/#comment-154632</link>
		<dc:creator>lurker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 May 2006 10:33:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/03/surprisingly-darfur-is-a-place-in-sudan-as-well-as-a-rhetorical-device/#comment-154632</guid>
		<description>Jet,

My views are essentially very simple, though, I admit, they are not expressed, how do I put, academically? A bit of personal information. I hail from, and subscribe to, what is popularly known as a &#039;tribal approach&#039;. Something I think of as &#039;societal identity&#039;. From such a background, it is unacceptable to pinch the child and then rock the cradle. Therefore, the West being the perpetrators of untold barbarity across the world, I find it incorrect, and I dare say downright wrong, to you trying to &#039;rectify&#039; your past errors. It tantamounts to getting treated by a doctor who poisoned you. You will have to suffer guilt and/or punishment. No exit clauses.

Darfur apart, it is the larger principle of benovelant interference that I oppose. Actually, it is not even that, it is the Western (US, UK, France, primarily. But please do add Italy, Germany, et al. where applicable) idea of promoting democracy and free market and motherhood, perhaps even apple pie, in other parts of the world. 

You see, historically, the mess of what is now Africa and to a lesser extent in the Middle East are repurcussions of the colonial past in these regions. No amount of screaming &#039;mea culpa&#039; is going to wash away those sins.

Intro being over and done with, on to answering your specific queries

&gt;&gt; So what are you saying? That Africa doesn’t want these things and is happy to settle with ‘dictatorship’, ‘war’, and ‘injustice’?

Not at all. Africa wants democracy, on its terms.  Even otherwise, ipso facto, what&#039;s wrong with a dictatorship as long as war and injustice do not occur?

Africa wants motherhood, polygamy be hailed. Africa does not want apple pie. 

&gt;&gt; Would you have the “Western” world stop sending aid to Africa? If not, then how would you convince the “Western” world to continue sending aid while doing nothing to help ensure a future for Africa?

No aid. Trade, maybe. But no aid. Zero loans. The handouts 1) are not reaching, cannot reach, will not reach, those who need it, 2) encourage a vicious cylcle of keeping mass murdrers in power.

&gt;&gt; As a for instance, a girl in South Africa is more likely to be raped than to be educated.
I know it is diffcult to accept, but there are certain things that are none of your business. As long as you are not raping and you are not being raped, unless asked for, don&#039;t help.

&gt;&gt; How do you expect ethical people to stand back and do nothing?
Without getting into semantical and etymological arguments over &#039;law&#039; vs &#039;ethics&#039; vs &#039;morals&#039; vs &#039;logic&#039; vs &#039;biology&#039;, I&#039;ll leave that for another day,I do not know what &#039;ethical&#039; means to you, but when in doubt, do nothing. This ridiculous notion of &quot;we just have to something!&quot; has screwed up many a people many a time. At least not doing anything provides people who are doing something, less of a mess to undo. As for why you cannot be the person, even if  you are ethical, to be that someone, re-read para 1. The West was/is the problem in Africa and therefore, by definition, cannot be the solution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Jet,</p>

	<p>My views are essentially very simple, though, I admit, they are not expressed, how do I put, academically? A bit of personal information. I hail from, and subscribe to, what is popularly known as a &#8216;tribal approach&#8217;. Something I think of as &#8216;societal identity&#8217;. From such a background, it is unacceptable to pinch the child and then rock the cradle. Therefore, the West being the perpetrators of untold barbarity across the world, I find it incorrect, and I dare say downright wrong, to you trying to &#8216;rectify&#8217; your past errors. It tantamounts to getting treated by a doctor who poisoned you. You will have to suffer guilt and/or punishment. No exit clauses.</p>

	<p>Darfur apart, it is the larger principle of benovelant interference that I oppose. Actually, it is not even that, it is the Western (US, UK, France, primarily. But please do add Italy, Germany, et al. where applicable) idea of promoting democracy and free market and motherhood, perhaps even apple pie, in other parts of the world.</p>

	<p>You see, historically, the mess of what is now Africa and to a lesser extent in the Middle East are repurcussions of the colonial past in these regions. No amount of screaming &#8216;mea culpa&#8217; is going to wash away those sins.</p>

	<p>Intro being over and done with, on to answering your specific queries</p>

	<p>>> So what are you saying? That Africa doesn&#8217;t want these things and is happy to settle with &#8216;dictatorship&#8217;, &#8216;war&#8217;, and &#8216;injustice&#8217;?</p>

	<p>Not at all. Africa wants democracy, on its terms.  Even otherwise, ipso facto, what&#8217;s wrong with a dictatorship as long as war and injustice do not occur?</p>

	<p>Africa wants motherhood, polygamy be hailed. Africa does not want apple pie.</p>

	<p>>> Would you have the &#8220;Western&#8221; world stop sending aid to Africa? If not, then how would you convince the &#8220;Western&#8221; world to continue sending aid while doing nothing to help ensure a future for Africa?</p>

	<p>No aid. Trade, maybe. But no aid. Zero loans. The handouts 1) are not reaching, cannot reach, will not reach, those who need it, 2) encourage a vicious cylcle of keeping mass murdrers in power.</p>

	<p>>> As a for instance, a girl in South Africa is more likely to be raped than to be educated.<br />
I know it is diffcult to accept, but there are certain things that are none of your business. As long as you are not raping and you are not being raped, unless asked for, don&#8217;t help.</p>

	<p>>> How do you expect ethical people to stand back and do nothing?<br />
Without getting into semantical and etymological arguments over &#8216;law&#8217; vs &#8216;ethics&#8217; vs &#8216;morals&#8217; vs &#8216;logic&#8217; vs &#8216;biology&#8217;, I&#8217;ll leave that for another day,I do not know what &#8216;ethical&#8217; means to you, but when in doubt, do nothing. This ridiculous notion of &#8220;we just have to something!&#8221; has screwed up many a people many a time. At least not doing anything provides people who are doing something, less of a mess to undo. As for why you cannot be the person, even if  you are ethical, to be that someone, re-read para 1. The West was/is the problem in Africa and therefore, by definition, cannot be the solution.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: jet</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/03/surprisingly-darfur-is-a-place-in-sudan-as-well-as-a-rhetorical-device/comment-page-1/#comment-154551</link>
		<dc:creator>jet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 May 2006 13:53:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/03/surprisingly-darfur-is-a-place-in-sudan-as-well-as-a-rhetorical-device/#comment-154551</guid>
		<description>Lurker,
So what are you saying?  That Africa doesn&#039;t want these things and is happy to settle with &#039;dictatorship&#039;, &#039;war&#039;, and &#039;injustice&#039;?  

Would you have the &quot;Western&quot; world stop sending aid to Africa?  If not, then how would you convince the &quot;Western&quot; world to continue sending aid while doing nothing to help ensure a future for Africa?  

As a for instance, a girl in South Africa is more likely to be raped than to be educated.  How do you expect ethical people to stand back and do nothing?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Lurker,<br />
So what are you saying?  That Africa doesn&#8217;t want these things and is happy to settle with &#8216;dictatorship&#8217;, &#8216;war&#8217;, and &#8216;injustice&#8217;?</p>

	<p>Would you have the &#8220;Western&#8221; world stop sending aid to Africa?  If not, then how would you convince the &#8220;Western&#8221; world to continue sending aid while doing nothing to help ensure a future for Africa?</p>

	<p>As a for instance, a girl in South Africa is more likely to be raped than to be educated.  How do you expect ethical people to stand back and do nothing?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: lurker</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/03/surprisingly-darfur-is-a-place-in-sudan-as-well-as-a-rhetorical-device/comment-page-1/#comment-154527</link>
		<dc:creator>lurker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 May 2006 10:52:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/03/surprisingly-darfur-is-a-place-in-sudan-as-well-as-a-rhetorical-device/#comment-154527</guid>
		<description>On the grounds of &#039;democracy&#039; and &#039;peace&#039; and &#039;rule of law&#039; are white man&#039;s babies. May I add, as defined so by himself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>On the grounds of &#8216;democracy&#8217; and &#8216;peace&#8217; and &#8216;rule of law&#8217; are white man&#8217;s babies. May I add, as defined so by himself.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: soru</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/03/surprisingly-darfur-is-a-place-in-sudan-as-well-as-a-rhetorical-device/comment-page-1/#comment-154523</link>
		<dc:creator>soru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 May 2006 09:44:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/03/surprisingly-darfur-is-a-place-in-sudan-as-well-as-a-rhetorical-device/#comment-154523</guid>
		<description>Darfur is your wife?

On what grounds are you making that claim to ownership?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Darfur is your wife?</p>

	<p>On what grounds are you making that claim to ownership?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: lurker</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/03/surprisingly-darfur-is-a-place-in-sudan-as-well-as-a-rhetorical-device/comment-page-1/#comment-154522</link>
		<dc:creator>lurker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 May 2006 09:35:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/03/surprisingly-darfur-is-a-place-in-sudan-as-well-as-a-rhetorical-device/#comment-154522</guid>
		<description>Obligatory comment on a topic that deals with the white man wanting to do &#039;good&#039; in a non-white geographic entity.

Don&#039;t. You have done a lot. Both good and bad. On the whole, bloody disgustingly bad. Especially in Afrique. Thank you, but no thank you.

You want a baby? Excellent. You have every right to have one. Perhaps, even a duty. But, please fuck your wife. No raping mine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Obligatory comment on a topic that deals with the white man wanting to do &#8216;good&#8217; in a non-white geographic entity.</p>

	<p>Don&#8217;t. You have done a lot. Both good and bad. On the whole, bloody disgustingly bad. Especially in Afrique. Thank you, but no thank you.</p>

	<p>You want a baby? Excellent. You have every right to have one. Perhaps, even a duty. But, please fuck your wife. No raping mine.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/03/surprisingly-darfur-is-a-place-in-sudan-as-well-as-a-rhetorical-device/comment-page-1/#comment-154519</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 May 2006 07:02:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/03/surprisingly-darfur-is-a-place-in-sudan-as-well-as-a-rhetorical-device/#comment-154519</guid>
		<description>These talks have been &quot;on the brink of collapse&quot; all week.  This is the stage at which they bring on the nasty cop and explain to the rebel leaders that they have one and only one chance of staying out of the Hague court.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>These talks have been &#8220;on the brink of collapse&#8221; all week.  This is the stage at which they bring on the nasty cop and explain to the rebel leaders that they have one and only one chance of staying out of the Hague court.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/03/surprisingly-darfur-is-a-place-in-sudan-as-well-as-a-rhetorical-device/comment-page-1/#comment-154515</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 May 2006 06:17:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/03/surprisingly-darfur-is-a-place-in-sudan-as-well-as-a-rhetorical-device/#comment-154515</guid>
		<description>Ah, &lt;a href=&quot;http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060505/ts_nm/sudan_darfur_dc_68&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Darfur talks on brink of collapse as rebels say no&lt;/a&gt;; I guess the victims of a genocide are, once again, reluctant to be rescued and lose their valuable status, thanks to Sebastian&amp;Co. Just like Mr. Kuperman predicted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ah, <a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060505/ts_nm/sudan_darfur_dc_68" rel="nofollow">Darfur talks on brink of collapse as rebels say no</a>; I guess the victims of a genocide are, once again, reluctant to be rescued and lose their valuable status, thanks to Sebastian&#038;Co. Just like Mr. Kuperman predicted.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: jet</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/03/surprisingly-darfur-is-a-place-in-sudan-as-well-as-a-rhetorical-device/comment-page-1/#comment-154491</link>
		<dc:creator>jet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 May 2006 22:42:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/03/surprisingly-darfur-is-a-place-in-sudan-as-well-as-a-rhetorical-device/#comment-154491</guid>
		<description>Sarah,
Don&#039;t you think you are taking the most unkind interpretation of the post possible?  And why would you make your only comment on this site about how you aren&#039;t coming back?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sarah,<br />
Don&#8217;t you think you are taking the most unkind interpretation of the post possible?  And why would you make your only comment on this site about how you aren&#8217;t coming back?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: emmanuel goldstein</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/03/surprisingly-darfur-is-a-place-in-sudan-as-well-as-a-rhetorical-device/comment-page-1/#comment-154464</link>
		<dc:creator>emmanuel goldstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 May 2006 19:11:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/03/surprisingly-darfur-is-a-place-in-sudan-as-well-as-a-rhetorical-device/#comment-154464</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
So Emmanuel, how large a fraction of your investments do you have in African stocks and government bonds?...
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Surprisingly close to 1/1</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote><br />
So Emmanuel, how large a fraction of your investments do you have in African stocks and government bonds?&#8230;<br />
</blockquote></p>

	<p>Surprisingly close to 1/1</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sarah Jane</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/03/surprisingly-darfur-is-a-place-in-sudan-as-well-as-a-rhetorical-device/comment-page-1/#comment-154437</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah Jane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 May 2006 17:03:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/03/surprisingly-darfur-is-a-place-in-sudan-as-well-as-a-rhetorical-device/#comment-154437</guid>
		<description>I used to like this site, but the second sentence of this item told me just a little too much about Daniel.  

I don&#039;t think I&#039;ll be coming back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I used to like this site, but the second sentence of this item told me just a little too much about Daniel.</p>

	<p>I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;ll be coming back.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: dave heasman</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/03/surprisingly-darfur-is-a-place-in-sudan-as-well-as-a-rhetorical-device/comment-page-1/#comment-154380</link>
		<dc:creator>dave heasman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 May 2006 12:58:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/03/surprisingly-darfur-is-a-place-in-sudan-as-well-as-a-rhetorical-device/#comment-154380</guid>
		<description>Daniel eschews posting at the Graun because &quot;It would probably be just sub-Economist bum-talking so I’ll do it here instead&quot;

 On the other hand., perhaps it&#039;s too clever for them - I saw this yesterday : 
&quot;the G rang asking for copy from me; I offered a cut and paste job of some previous work. I sent it in and the reply I&#039;ll never forget was: &quot;You&#039;ll have to seriously dumb it down for our readers&quot;. &quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Daniel eschews posting at the Graun because &#8220;It would probably be just sub-Economist bum-talking so I&#8217;ll do it here instead&#8221;</p>

	<p>On the other hand., perhaps it&#8217;s too clever for them &#8211; I saw this yesterday :<br />
&#8220;the G rang asking for copy from me; I offered a cut and paste job of some previous work. I sent it in and the reply I&#8217;ll never forget was: &#8220;You&#8217;ll have to seriously dumb it down for our readers&#8221;. &#8221; </p>
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