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	<title>Comments on: Wanting to Know Everything</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/11/wanting-to-know-everything/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: goatchowder</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/11/wanting-to-know-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-155540</link>
		<dc:creator>goatchowder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 May 2006 09:11:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/11/big-databases-the-nsa-and-social-science/#comment-155540</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t buy the &quot;nothing to hide&quot; horseshit.

Who has had an affair? Who has masturbated? Who has had oral sex in a state where it is illegal? Who has visited a prostitute? Who has smoked a joint? Who has driven home with a BAC &gt; 0.05? Who has had a racy phone conversation with a lover? Who has flirted with a married person? Who has said nasty stuff about their boss? Who has made a racial or ethnic slur? Who has looked at porn? Who has run a stop sign? Who has cheated on their income tax? Who has exceeded the speed limit?

Bring me a hot cup of Kafka.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t buy the &#8220;nothing to hide&#8221; horseshit.</p>

	<p>Who has had an affair? Who has masturbated? Who has had oral sex in a state where it is illegal? Who has visited a prostitute? Who has smoked a joint? Who has driven home with a <span class="caps">BAC </span>> 0.05? Who has had a racy phone conversation with a lover? Who has flirted with a married person? Who has said nasty stuff about their boss? Who has made a racial or ethnic slur? Who has looked at porn? Who has run a stop sign? Who has cheated on their income tax? Who has exceeded the speed limit?</p>

	<p>Bring me a hot cup of Kafka.</p>
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		<title>By: jet</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/11/wanting-to-know-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-155476</link>
		<dc:creator>jet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 May 2006 18:51:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/11/big-databases-the-nsa-and-social-science/#comment-155476</guid>
		<description>If you really care about your privacy, then donate your time (or money) giving &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.asterisk.org/about&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;power&lt;/a&gt; back to the people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If you really care about your privacy, then donate your time (or money) giving <a href="http://www.asterisk.org/about" rel="nofollow">power</a> back to the people.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: X-Tra Rant &#187; Words of Wisdom</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/11/wanting-to-know-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-155474</link>
		<dc:creator>X-Tra Rant &#187; Words of Wisdom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 May 2006 18:40:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/11/big-databases-the-nsa-and-social-science/#comment-155474</guid>
		<description>[...] There&#8217;s been a ton of good coverage on The Internets about this issue, so I won&#8217;t go into it in depth and bore you with my hacktacularness.ars technica the real scope of the domestic spyingCrooked Timber wanting to know everything/social network analysisDaily Kos 10 reasons Americans should worry about thisMyDD Reward Qwest for not bowing to the NSA&#8217;s illegal requestThink Progress Telcos could be liable for billions of dollars [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] There&#8217;s been a ton of good coverage on The Internets about this issue, so I won&#8217;t go into it in depth and bore you with my hacktacularness.ars technica the real scope of the domestic spyingCrooked Timber wanting to know everything/social network analysisDaily Kos 10 reasons Americans should worry about thisMyDD Reward Qwest for not bowing to the <span class="caps">NSA</span>&#8217;s illegal requestThink Progress Telcos could be liable for billions of dollars [...]</p>
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		<title>By: steve duncan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/11/wanting-to-know-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-155446</link>
		<dc:creator>steve duncan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 May 2006 15:21:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/11/big-databases-the-nsa-and-social-science/#comment-155446</guid>
		<description>Discussions of this type of intrusion inevitably bring out the &quot;I don&#039;t have anything to hide&quot; crowd. Ceding the 4th Amendment comes so easy to many people. Ask them if they&#039;d like glass walls on their houses. Nothing to hide, right? How about mailing a list to every household of every stop all their cars made the previous month. Dad gets mom&#039;s list and vice-versa. We&#039;ll just tag every car with a monitor and let everyone know all its travels. Nothing to hide, right? How about a high powered microphone by the watercooler at work. Nobody ever gossips or says anything untoward about the boss. Nothing to hide, right? Let&#039;s see, we&#039;ll publish on the internet everything you view on pay cable, a monthly summary accessible to all. Nothing to hide, right? Where do we stop? We don&#039;t, not until each of our daily lives are akin to the amoeba under the microscope, every undulation of its protoplasm noted and recorded. Happy monitoring!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Discussions of this type of intrusion inevitably bring out the &#8220;I don&#8217;t have anything to hide&#8221; crowd. Ceding the 4th Amendment comes so easy to many people. Ask them if they&#8217;d like glass walls on their houses. Nothing to hide, right? How about mailing a list to every household of every stop all their cars made the previous month. Dad gets mom&#8217;s list and vice-versa. We&#8217;ll just tag every car with a monitor and let everyone know all its travels. Nothing to hide, right? How about a high powered microphone by the watercooler at work. Nobody ever gossips or says anything untoward about the boss. Nothing to hide, right? Let&#8217;s see, we&#8217;ll publish on the internet everything you view on pay cable, a monthly summary accessible to all. Nothing to hide, right? Where do we stop? We don&#8217;t, not until each of our daily lives are akin to the amoeba under the microscope, every undulation of its protoplasm noted and recorded. Happy monitoring!!</p>
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		<title>By: eweininger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/11/wanting-to-know-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-155433</link>
		<dc:creator>eweininger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 May 2006 14:33:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/11/big-databases-the-nsa-and-social-science/#comment-155433</guid>
		<description>If the legal genuises amongst us would please hurry up and explicate a theory of the Unitary Professoriate, I could finally get this damn IRB off my back.  Unencumbrance beckons!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If the legal genuises amongst us would please hurry up and explicate a theory of the Unitary Professoriate, I could finally get this damn <span class="caps">IRB</span> off my back.  Unencumbrance beckons!</p>
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		<title>By: Ginger Yellow</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/11/wanting-to-know-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-155427</link>
		<dc:creator>Ginger Yellow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 May 2006 14:16:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/11/big-databases-the-nsa-and-social-science/#comment-155427</guid>
		<description>Evan, you&#039;re right that they could (and should) operate by tracking (after warrants with probable cause) suspects&#039; communcations and expand as necessary, but if you&#039;re an espionage agency then you&#039;re not going to pass up any opportunity to get more, and more convenient, data.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Evan, you&#8217;re right that they could (and should) operate by tracking (after warrants with probable cause) suspects&#8217; communcations and expand as necessary, but if you&#8217;re an espionage agency then you&#8217;re not going to pass up any opportunity to get more, and more convenient, data.</p>
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		<title>By: Evan Morris</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/11/wanting-to-know-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-155421</link>
		<dc:creator>Evan Morris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 May 2006 13:50:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/11/big-databases-the-nsa-and-social-science/#comment-155421</guid>
		<description>Harald: If you have a &#039;known terrorist&#039; then you can just monitor the known terrorist&#039;s communications, and then expand your monitoring as needed. The law already provides for this. That&#039;s my point. You don&#039;t have to monitor the whole database, there&#039;s a simpler solution. So monitoring the whole database smacks of pretense. &quot;Look, we&#039;re doing something important, we&#039;re monitoring everyone&#039;s phones.&quot; Well, great, but so what? You could achieve the same effect in respect of terrorists with less effort.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Harald: If you have a &#8216;known terrorist&#8217; then you can just monitor the known terrorist&#8217;s communications, and then expand your monitoring as needed. The law already provides for this. That&#8217;s my point. You don&#8217;t have to monitor the whole database, there&#8217;s a simpler solution. So monitoring the whole database smacks of pretense. &#8220;Look, we&#8217;re doing something important, we&#8217;re monitoring everyone&#8217;s phones.&#8221; Well, great, but so what? You could achieve the same effect in respect of terrorists with less effort.</p>
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		<title>By: SamChevre</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/11/wanting-to-know-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-155416</link>
		<dc:creator>SamChevre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 May 2006 13:13:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/11/big-databases-the-nsa-and-social-science/#comment-155416</guid>
		<description>Dr Memory,

I corrected myself--please see post #11.  (The warrant requirements for a pen register are lower than for a wiretap--I misremembered and thought they were non-existent.)

SamChevre</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Dr Memory,</p>

	<p>I corrected myself&#8212;please see post #11.  (The warrant requirements for a pen register are lower than for a wiretap&#8212;I misremembered and thought they were non-existent.)</p>

	<p>SamChevre</p>
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		<title>By: Steve LaBonne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/11/wanting-to-know-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-155407</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LaBonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 May 2006 12:19:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/11/big-databases-the-nsa-and-social-science/#comment-155407</guid>
		<description>Not much in the so-called Patriot Act really had anything to do with counterterrorism, either. It was a wish-list of new powers for which the snoops had been pushing for years; 9/11 just provided the political cover to get them passed. The bottom line is, snoops just like to snoop. It&#039;s what they know how to do and what justifies their salaries. They&#039;er always looking for new places to stick their noses. Of course they don&#039;t know what to do with the information they gather- the failure to prevent the eminently preventable 9/11 attacks shows that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Not much in the so-called Patriot Act really had anything to do with counterterrorism, either. It was a wish-list of new powers for which the snoops had been pushing for years; 9/11 just provided the political cover to get them passed. The bottom line is, snoops just like to snoop. It&#8217;s what they know how to do and what justifies their salaries. They&#8217;er always looking for new places to stick their noses. Of course they don&#8217;t know what to do with the information they gather- the failure to prevent the eminently preventable 9/11 attacks shows that.</p>
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		<title>By: Harald Korneliussen</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/11/wanting-to-know-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-155406</link>
		<dc:creator>Harald Korneliussen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 May 2006 12:15:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/11/big-databases-the-nsa-and-social-science/#comment-155406</guid>
		<description>Evan Morris: on the contrary, it can be very useful to catch terrorists. If you have one known terrorist, you can find all the people who have spoken to him, all who have spoken to them again, and so on until the tenth degree. It should then be quite possible to notice a strongly connected &quot;ring&quot; of people talking to the terrorist and each other, and possibly with pointers to other &quot;rings&quot;, which could be terrorist cells.

The problem is that by the time you get to the tenth degree, you have likely covered the entire population of the USA. And the system can&#039;t just be used to discover terrorist cells who use the phone network, it can also be used to discover all sorts of other groups. Plus, it can identify the central people in these groups. If Bush wants to find out who were the really important people behind the latest immigration law protests, can he use this database for that? You bet. He can identify crucial links, important people who perhaps don&#039;t even know themselves that they are important. He can identify all sorts of decision makers and leaders, on all levels, as long as they use the phone network as a primary means of communication.

But you may be right, in that terrorist cells probably aren&#039;t so stupid they use the regular phone network for communicating. It&#039;s honest people who do that. And Bush hasn&#039;t bothered with warrants. That is another sign that it may well be honest people he wants the NSA to tap in on.

Switch to encrypted net connections, and impeach him, before it&#039;s too late.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Evan Morris: on the contrary, it can be very useful to catch terrorists. If you have one known terrorist, you can find all the people who have spoken to him, all who have spoken to them again, and so on until the tenth degree. It should then be quite possible to notice a strongly connected &#8220;ring&#8221; of people talking to the terrorist and each other, and possibly with pointers to other &#8220;rings&#8221;, which could be terrorist cells.</p>

	<p>The problem is that by the time you get to the tenth degree, you have likely covered the entire population of the <span class="caps">USA</span>. And the system can&#8217;t just be used to discover terrorist cells who use the phone network, it can also be used to discover all sorts of other groups. Plus, it can identify the central people in these groups. If Bush wants to find out who were the really important people behind the latest immigration law protests, can he use this database for that? You bet. He can identify crucial links, important people who perhaps don&#8217;t even know themselves that they are important. He can identify all sorts of decision makers and leaders, on all levels, as long as they use the phone network as a primary means of communication.</p>

	<p>But you may be right, in that terrorist cells probably aren&#8217;t so stupid they use the regular phone network for communicating. It&#8217;s honest people who do that. And Bush hasn&#8217;t bothered with warrants. That is another sign that it may well be honest people he wants the <span class="caps">NSA</span> to tap in on.</p>

	<p>Switch to encrypted net connections, and impeach him, before it&#8217;s too late.</p>
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		<title>By: Evan Morris</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/11/wanting-to-know-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-155400</link>
		<dc:creator>Evan Morris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 May 2006 11:30:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/11/big-databases-the-nsa-and-social-science/#comment-155400</guid>
		<description>What no one seems to be asking is this: leaving aside the ethical issues, of what value is this database in preventing terrorism? I would guess not much. In fact, none. Maybe I&#039;m dumb, but I can&#039;t see why this database would be necessary in efforts to prevent terror, by which I mean there is nothing that having this database allows that a simpler exercise would not allow, in respect of combatting terror. It just seems like frenetic make-work to me, the NSA trying to pretend it&#039;s doing something useful when in fact it is just masturbating.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What no one seems to be asking is this: leaving aside the ethical issues, of what value is this database in preventing terrorism? I would guess not much. In fact, none. Maybe I&#8217;m dumb, but I can&#8217;t see why this database would be necessary in efforts to prevent terror, by which I mean there is nothing that having this database allows that a simpler exercise would not allow, in respect of combatting terror. It just seems like frenetic make-work to me, the <span class="caps">NSA</span> trying to pretend it&#8217;s doing something useful when in fact it is just masturbating.</p>
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		<title>By: Harald Korneliussen</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/11/wanting-to-know-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-155390</link>
		<dc:creator>Harald Korneliussen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 May 2006 10:00:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/11/big-databases-the-nsa-and-social-science/#comment-155390</guid>
		<description>Inconvenient, sorry.

I assume some of you, as social scientists or perhaps computer scientists, know what can be extracted from such a huge graph, and what can not. From what I&#039;ve seen of the news coverage, they know and care nothing about the data mining potential.

That people understand this is more important than discussing potential legal strategies. There&#039;s always some way that government can find a bizarre legal strategy to justify its actions, as long as they have the public support - their history shows this. But I don&#039;t think they will have that public support once people understand that with that database, the president can probably uncover half of all the marital infidelities in the US, if he wants to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Inconvenient, sorry.</p>

	<p>I assume some of you, as social scientists or perhaps computer scientists, know what can be extracted from such a huge graph, and what can not. From what I&#8217;ve seen of the news coverage, they know and care nothing about the data mining potential.</p>

	<p>That people understand this is more important than discussing potential legal strategies. There&#8217;s always some way that government can find a bizarre legal strategy to justify its actions, as long as they have the public support &#8211; their history shows this. But I don&#8217;t think they will have that public support once people understand that with that database, the president can probably uncover half of all the marital infidelities in the US, if he wants to.</p>
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		<title>By: Harald Korneliussen</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/11/wanting-to-know-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-155384</link>
		<dc:creator>Harald Korneliussen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 May 2006 08:32:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/11/big-databases-the-nsa-and-social-science/#comment-155384</guid>
		<description>Using such a data set, wouldn&#039;t it be feasible to find out for instance who are the most effective sources of unconvenient information? 

I imagine a popular website editor suddenly getting troubles at work, being accused of crimes (with good evidence turning up), while the hysterical site that the NSA knows has little or negative impact gets left alone.

Or it could be used the other way around: find out who the influential people on your side are, and make sure they have everything they need.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Using such a data set, wouldn&#8217;t it be feasible to find out for instance who are the most effective sources of unconvenient information?</p>

	<p>I imagine a popular website editor suddenly getting troubles at work, being accused of crimes (with good evidence turning up), while the hysterical site that the <span class="caps">NSA</span> knows has little or negative impact gets left alone.</p>

	<p>Or it could be used the other way around: find out who the influential people on your side are, and make sure they have everything they need.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/11/wanting-to-know-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-155382</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 May 2006 08:19:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/11/big-databases-the-nsa-and-social-science/#comment-155382</guid>
		<description>Bi, I don&#039;t disagree with you in general. 

On the axis going from total anarchy to total police state there must be a point where you feel most comfortable and this point is different for different people and for each person under different circumstances. 

For example, I would like them to register all firearms and have a database of that. 

National ID card? Maybe. 

A GPS tracking device in every car? In every skull? There is a point where this will make you uncomfortable even if it provides great benefits for all sorts of things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Bi, I don&#8217;t disagree with you in general.</p>

	<p>On the axis going from total anarchy to total police state there must be a point where you feel most comfortable and this point is different for different people and for each person under different circumstances.</p>

	<p>For example, I would like them to register all firearms and have a database of that.</p>

	<p>National ID card? Maybe.</p>

	<p><span class="caps">A GPS</span> tracking device in every car? In every skull? There is a point where this will make you uncomfortable even if it provides great benefits for all sorts of things.</p>
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		<title>By: Todd Larason</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/11/wanting-to-know-everything/comment-page-1/#comment-155381</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd Larason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 May 2006 07:52:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/11/big-databases-the-nsa-and-social-science/#comment-155381</guid>
		<description>The IMDB (having grown out of the old Usenet movie database project) continues to make huge amounts of data available; I haven&#039;t read their licensing terms closely recently, but at a glance they seem to be &quot;don&#039;t use our data to compete with us&quot;, basically.

See http://www.imdb.com/interfaces for pointers to both the data and the licensing information.  You&#039;d want at least running-times.list.gz; what else you&#039;d want would depend on what exactly you were studying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The <span class="caps">IMDB </span>(having grown out of the old Usenet movie database project) continues to make huge amounts of data available; I haven&#8217;t read their licensing terms closely recently, but at a glance they seem to be &#8220;don&#8217;t use our data to compete with us&#8221;, basically.</p>

	<p>See <a href="http://www.imdb.com/interfaces" rel="nofollow">http://www.imdb.com/interfaces</a> for pointers to both the data and the licensing information.  You&#8217;d want at least running-times.list.gz; what else you&#8217;d want would depend on what exactly you were studying.</p>
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