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	<title>Comments on: Election Fraud? In America? Shurely Not</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/12/election-fraud-in-america-shurely-not/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Dan Simon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/12/election-fraud-in-america-shurely-not/comment-page-1/#comment-155821</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 May 2006 17:49:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/12/election-fraud-in-america-shurely-not/#comment-155821</guid>
		<description>Sorry--make that &lt;em&gt;three&lt;/em&gt; final comments.  (Insert Monty Python reference here....)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sorry&#8212;make that <em>three</em> final comments.  (Insert Monty Python reference here&#8230;.)</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Simon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/12/election-fraud-in-america-shurely-not/comment-page-1/#comment-155809</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 May 2006 17:19:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/12/election-fraud-in-america-shurely-not/#comment-155809</guid>
		<description>Two final comments:

1.  Substandard concrete in, say, bridge construction can be a very, very serious problem.  Substandard electronic voting machines no doubt can also be a very, very serious problem.  However, we currently have a much better understanding of what constitutes &quot;substandard&quot; for concrete than for voting machines--partly because we have a lot more experience building bridges than conducting electronic elections.  Picking holes in Diebold&#039;s voting machines is an important task, as long as those machines are in use, but it sheds little light on the overall question of what would be required of electronic voting machines and their surrounding procedures for us to trust them as sufficiently secure.

2.  &lt;em&gt;Of course&lt;/em&gt; there are well-known procedures which can compensate for the weaknesses of paper ballots.  (Note, though, that those procedures have significant costs--in the form of lots of human oversight and auditing--which we simply take for granted because they&#039;re so familiar.)  Whether there are equivalent (or even possibly even simpler and cheaper) procedures that can compensate for the weaknesses of electronic voting machines remains to be seen.  I would like to see security researchers concentrate on &lt;em&gt;that&lt;/em&gt; question, rather than on the narrower question of whether Diebold&#039;s machines in particular are up to snuff.  (There are plenty of less academic types, I believe, who are fully competent to do the work of putting the current crop of voting machines through the ringer, and finding lots of the sorts of security holes that have already been found.)

3.  There are several potential benefits to electronic voting machines, including much faster, less labor-intensive tallying, easily adjustable user interfaces to improve ease of use, and fewer moving parts subject to wear.  There are also several potential disadvantages, some of which have been discussed here.  Whether compensating for those disadvantages is difficult and expensive enough to negate all the benefits is simply unknown at this point.  And to be frank, I&#039;ve seen disappointingly little research addressing that question in a serious way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Two final comments:</p>

	<p>1.  Substandard concrete in, say, bridge construction can be a very, very serious problem.  Substandard electronic voting machines no doubt can also be a very, very serious problem.  However, we currently have a much better understanding of what constitutes &#8220;substandard&#8221; for concrete than for voting machines&#8212;partly because we have a lot more experience building bridges than conducting electronic elections.  Picking holes in Diebold&#8217;s voting machines is an important task, as long as those machines are in use, but it sheds little light on the overall question of what would be required of electronic voting machines and their surrounding procedures for us to trust them as sufficiently secure.</p>

	<p>2.  <em>Of course</em> there are well-known procedures which can compensate for the weaknesses of paper ballots.  (Note, though, that those procedures have significant costs&#8212;in the form of lots of human oversight and auditing&#8212;which we simply take for granted because they&#8217;re so familiar.)  Whether there are equivalent (or even possibly even simpler and cheaper) procedures that can compensate for the weaknesses of electronic voting machines remains to be seen.  I would like to see security researchers concentrate on <em>that</em> question, rather than on the narrower question of whether Diebold&#8217;s machines in particular are up to snuff.  (There are plenty of less academic types, I believe, who are fully competent to do the work of putting the current crop of voting machines through the ringer, and finding lots of the sorts of security holes that have already been found.)</p>

	<p>3.  There are several potential benefits to electronic voting machines, including much faster, less labor-intensive tallying, easily adjustable user interfaces to improve ease of use, and fewer moving parts subject to wear.  There are also several potential disadvantages, some of which have been discussed here.  Whether compensating for those disadvantages is difficult and expensive enough to negate all the benefits is simply unknown at this point.  And to be frank, I&#8217;ve seen disappointingly little research addressing that question in a serious way.</p>
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		<title>By: Ginger Yellow</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/12/election-fraud-in-america-shurely-not/comment-page-1/#comment-155766</link>
		<dc:creator>Ginger Yellow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 May 2006 10:32:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/12/election-fraud-in-america-shurely-not/#comment-155766</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m in no way technophobic and I don&#039;t mean to &quot;draw long-term conclusions about the viability of various voting technologies based on the Diebold case&quot;. Certainly it should be perfectly possible to create secure voting machines. But it seems to be a solution in search of a problem, and one driven more by technology companies with good lobbyists looking for new revenue sources than any benefit for the electorate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m in no way technophobic and I don&#8217;t mean to &#8220;draw long-term conclusions about the viability of various voting technologies based on the Diebold case&#8221;. Certainly it should be perfectly possible to create secure voting machines. But it seems to be a solution in search of a problem, and one driven more by technology companies with good lobbyists looking for new revenue sources than any benefit for the electorate.</p>
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		<title>By: ajay</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/12/election-fraud-in-america-shurely-not/comment-page-1/#comment-155761</link>
		<dc:creator>ajay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 May 2006 09:11:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/12/election-fraud-in-america-shurely-not/#comment-155761</guid>
		<description>Dan Simon:&lt;i&gt;The flaw would allow anyone with brief access to a ballot box to insert large numbers of fraudulent votes, which would then be counted as valid, or to destroy all the previously entered votes, making them unreadable&lt;/i&gt;

Very astute - and satirical! Except that ballot papers have serial numbers, which can be matched to their counterfoils. The counterfoils, and the separate checklist of voters, act as a check of the total number of votes. So if you were to stuff a ballot box, a) it would be noticed that only 1500 people had voted at that station, but there were 25,000 ballot papers in the box; b) an investigation would discover that 23,500 of the papers did not have matching counterfoils, and they would be discarded. So your argument doesn&#039;t actually work.

abb1: sounds like Utopia in &quot;Utopia, Ltd.&quot;: a Dictatorship tempered by Dynamite. An absolute monarchy in which every action of the King is observed by two Wise Men; if in their judgement the King becomes a tyrant, the Wise Men instruct the Public Exploder to explode the king.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Dan Simon:<i>The flaw would allow anyone with brief access to a ballot box to insert large numbers of fraudulent votes, which would then be counted as valid, or to destroy all the previously entered votes, making them unreadable</i></p>

	<p>Very astute &#8211; and satirical! Except that ballot papers have serial numbers, which can be matched to their counterfoils. The counterfoils, and the separate checklist of voters, act as a check of the total number of votes. So if you were to stuff a ballot box, a) it would be noticed that only 1500 people had voted at that station, but there were 25,000 ballot papers in the box; b) an investigation would discover that 23,500 of the papers did not have matching counterfoils, and they would be discarded. So your argument doesn&#8217;t actually work.</p>

	<p>abb1: sounds like Utopia in &#8220;Utopia, Ltd.&#8221;: a Dictatorship tempered by Dynamite. An absolute monarchy in which every action of the King is observed by two Wise Men; if in their judgement the King becomes a tyrant, the Wise Men instruct the Public Exploder to explode the king.</p>
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		<title>By: Doctor G</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/12/election-fraud-in-america-shurely-not/comment-page-1/#comment-155750</link>
		<dc:creator>Doctor G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 May 2006 04:33:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/12/election-fraud-in-america-shurely-not/#comment-155750</guid>
		<description>Dan, I think the quality of our elections is more important than the quality of our concrete, and so I don&#039;t find the involvement of security experts in the fight for honest elections to be surprising, or a problem.  And I haven&#039;t detected any lack of systems thinking in the security literature.  In the case of the Diebold software (and other programs like it), I don&#039;t think that any system can be devised to use them safely, short of airport-style security checks at the polls.  Why bother, when paper works so well?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Dan, I think the quality of our elections is more important than the quality of our concrete, and so I don&#8217;t find the involvement of security experts in the fight for honest elections to be surprising, or a problem.  And I haven&#8217;t detected any lack of systems thinking in the security literature.  In the case of the Diebold software (and other programs like it), I don&#8217;t think that any system can be devised to use them safely, short of airport-style security checks at the polls.  Why bother, when paper works so well?</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/12/election-fraud-in-america-shurely-not/comment-page-1/#comment-155612</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 May 2006 10:35:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/12/election-fraud-in-america-shurely-not/#comment-155612</guid>
		<description>I like the system invented by Robert Sheckley in his &quot;Ticket to Tranai&quot;. On that planet anyone who wants can be the president, but he/she is required to wear the collar with a charge of dynamite around the neck. There are booths everywhere on the planet where citizens can express their displeasure by pressing red button. As soon as it reaches the threshold - the collar goes &quot;boom!&quot;. I think this could work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I like the system invented by Robert Sheckley in his &#8220;Ticket to Tranai&#8221;. On that planet anyone who wants can be the president, but he/she is required to wear the collar with a charge of dynamite around the neck. There are booths everywhere on the planet where citizens can express their displeasure by pressing red button. As soon as it reaches the threshold &#8211; the collar goes &#8220;boom!&#8221;. I think this could work.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Simon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/12/election-fraud-in-america-shurely-not/comment-page-1/#comment-155598</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 May 2006 05:15:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/12/election-fraud-in-america-shurely-not/#comment-155598</guid>
		<description>Doctor G, My comments were directed largely at those who are drawing broad conclusions about the long-term viability of various voting technologies based on the Diebold case.  I&#039;m certainly prepared to believe that Diebold&#039;s devices are a mess.  But that revelation is akin to the discovery that a particular highway contractor is using inferior-grade concrete:  it obliges the government to take remedial measures, and encourages it to select a different contractor next time, but it says little, fundamentally, about the safety of roads in general, or even about the viability of specific road-building technologies.

Given the narrow significance of the Diebold findings, then, why are security researchers so interested--indeed involved--in them?  I believe it&#039;s largely because, as I explained, security researchers are powerfully tempted to focus on attacking specific technologies rather than securing systems.  And once they do so, they must then justify themselves by claiming broader significance for the attacks than they really deserve.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Doctor G, My comments were directed largely at those who are drawing broad conclusions about the long-term viability of various voting technologies based on the Diebold case.  I&#8217;m certainly prepared to believe that Diebold&#8217;s devices are a mess.  But that revelation is akin to the discovery that a particular highway contractor is using inferior-grade concrete:  it obliges the government to take remedial measures, and encourages it to select a different contractor next time, but it says little, fundamentally, about the safety of roads in general, or even about the viability of specific road-building technologies.</p>

	<p>Given the narrow significance of the Diebold findings, then, why are security researchers so interested&#8212;indeed involved&#8212;in them?  I believe it&#8217;s largely because, as I explained, security researchers are powerfully tempted to focus on attacking specific technologies rather than securing systems.  And once they do so, they must then justify themselves by claiming broader significance for the attacks than they really deserve.</p>
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		<title>By: Doctor G</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/12/election-fraud-in-america-shurely-not/comment-page-1/#comment-155580</link>
		<dc:creator>Doctor G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 May 2006 01:31:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/12/election-fraud-in-america-shurely-not/#comment-155580</guid>
		<description>Dan, I find your perspective very valuable, but I think you are too hard on the security community.  Those who specialize in finding defects do so, and they get some press.  Those who specialize in creating secure systems also do so, and they get little press.  And don&#039;t forget the voting machine code that leaked out a while ago.  I read that code, and I would fire the person who wrote it if I could.  It was really that bad -- so bad that there is no reason to trust the results of any election held with that code.  The vendor claims to have cleaned it up, but unless they publish the code why should I believe them?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Dan, I find your perspective very valuable, but I think you are too hard on the security community.  Those who specialize in finding defects do so, and they get some press.  Those who specialize in creating secure systems also do so, and they get little press.  And don&#8217;t forget the voting machine code that leaked out a while ago.  I read that code, and I would fire the person who wrote it if I could.  It was really that bad&#8212;so bad that there is no reason to trust the results of any election held with that code.  The vendor claims to have cleaned it up, but unless they publish the code why should I believe them?</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Simon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/12/election-fraud-in-america-shurely-not/comment-page-1/#comment-155567</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 May 2006 20:47:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/12/election-fraud-in-america-shurely-not/#comment-155567</guid>
		<description>I’m not about to defend Diebold and its security practices, which are obviously in need of tightening (not to mention its PR efforts, which I gather are rife with overstated security claims). But…

[from the NYT article]

&lt;em&gt;Computer scientists who have studied the vulnerability say the flaw might allow someone with brief access to a voting machine and with knowledge of computer code to tamper with the machine&#039;s software, and even, potentially, to spread malicious code to other parts of the voting system.&lt;/em&gt;

{BEGIN sarcasm}

What a coincidence! I’ve recently uncovered a potentially devastating flaw in paper ballot voting systems. The flaw would allow anyone with brief access to a ballot box to insert large numbers of fraudulent votes, which would then be counted as valid, or to destroy all the previously entered votes, making them unreadable. Obviously, then, every company that has ever marketed paper ballot-based voting materials has been laughably negligent–as has any jurisdiction that has ever used them.

{END sarcasm}

Let me make a few assertions here, and see if we can all agree on them:

1. A voting technology is not a voting system. A voting system is one or more technologies combined with a collection of procedures for using them to run elections.

2. Any voting technology, no matter how carefully designed and implemented, is doomed to be insecure if embedded in a sufficiently broken system. (See, for example, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~nks/papers/cryptovoting-usenix05.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Karlof, Sastry and Wagner&lt;/a&gt;.) Conversely, any voting technology, no matter how poorly designed and implemented, is probably securable (though possibly at a prohibitive cost) using sufficiently elaborate surrounding procedures.

3. Older technologies will inevitably seem more secure than newer ones, because the procedures surrounding them have evolved, in response to attacks, to the point where known attacks have generally been mitigated, and novel attacks are unlikely.

4. Therefore, in evaluating new voting technologies, we should treat newly discovered attacks not as refutations of the new technology, but rather as challenges to both the technology designers and the system designers to mitigate them (challenges which they may or may not be able to meet at an acceptable cost).

———

There is an unfortunate tendency in the computer security research community to overplay the significance of new attacks. This weakness is understandable: attacks, unlike claims of security, are empirically verifiable, often using spiffy demos; they can have immediate and substantial real-world impact, whereas new security technologies must first be built, tested, sold, deployed, and so on; and they place security researchers in the enviable role of scolding expert rather than supplicant technology salesman. 

But they should remember that their job, first and foremost, is to provide the world with more secure systems–not simply to break things. And while I’m certainly glad that the weaknesses in voting systems like Diebold’s are being exposed, I wish security researchers would exercise a little more perspective each time they find one. After all, &lt;em&gt;all&lt;/em&gt; technologies have such weaknesses, and new technologies inevitably have as-yet-undiscovered ones. 

The far more interesting question is how the ultimate result of the vulnerability discover-repair cycle for this technology and its surrounding system will end up comparing with systems based on other technologies. Security researchers should have something interesting to say about that question, but so far, I’m sad to say, the community has generated a lot more heat than light on the subject.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m not about to defend Diebold and its security practices, which are obviously in need of tightening (not to mention its PR efforts, which I gather are rife with overstated security claims). But&#8230;</p>

	<p>[from the <span class="caps">NYT</span> article]</p>

	<p><em>Computer scientists who have studied the vulnerability say the flaw might allow someone with brief access to a voting machine and with knowledge of computer code to tamper with the machine&#8217;s software, and even, potentially, to spread malicious code to other parts of the voting system.</em></p>

	<p>{BEGIN sarcasm}</p>

	<p>What a coincidence! I&#8217;ve recently uncovered a potentially devastating flaw in paper ballot voting systems. The flaw would allow anyone with brief access to a ballot box to insert large numbers of fraudulent votes, which would then be counted as valid, or to destroy all the previously entered votes, making them unreadable. Obviously, then, every company that has ever marketed paper ballot-based voting materials has been laughably negligent&#8211;as has any jurisdiction that has ever used them.</p>

	<p>{END sarcasm}</p>

	<p>Let me make a few assertions here, and see if we can all agree on them:</p>

	<p>1. A voting technology is not a voting system. A voting system is one or more technologies combined with a collection of procedures for using them to run elections.</p>

	<p>2. Any voting technology, no matter how carefully designed and implemented, is doomed to be insecure if embedded in a sufficiently broken system. (See, for example, <a href="http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~nks/papers/cryptovoting-usenix05.pdf" rel="nofollow">Karlof, Sastry and Wagner</a>.) Conversely, any voting technology, no matter how poorly designed and implemented, is probably securable (though possibly at a prohibitive cost) using sufficiently elaborate surrounding procedures.</p>

	<p>3. Older technologies will inevitably seem more secure than newer ones, because the procedures surrounding them have evolved, in response to attacks, to the point where known attacks have generally been mitigated, and novel attacks are unlikely.</p>

	<p>4. Therefore, in evaluating new voting technologies, we should treat newly discovered attacks not as refutations of the new technology, but rather as challenges to both the technology designers and the system designers to mitigate them (challenges which they may or may not be able to meet at an acceptable cost).</p>

	<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;</p>

	<p>There is an unfortunate tendency in the computer security research community to overplay the significance of new attacks. This weakness is understandable: attacks, unlike claims of security, are empirically verifiable, often using spiffy demos; they can have immediate and substantial real-world impact, whereas new security technologies must first be built, tested, sold, deployed, and so on; and they place security researchers in the enviable role of scolding expert rather than supplicant technology salesman.</p>

	<p>But they should remember that their job, first and foremost, is to provide the world with more secure systems&#8211;not simply to break things. And while I&#8217;m certainly glad that the weaknesses in voting systems like Diebold&#8217;s are being exposed, I wish security researchers would exercise a little more perspective each time they find one. After all, <em>all</em> technologies have such weaknesses, and new technologies inevitably have as-yet-undiscovered ones.</p>

	<p>The far more interesting question is how the ultimate result of the vulnerability discover-repair cycle for this technology and its surrounding system will end up comparing with systems based on other technologies. Security researchers should have something interesting to say about that question, but so far, I&#8217;m sad to say, the community has generated a lot more heat than light on the subject.</p>
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		<title>By: gmoke</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/12/election-fraud-in-america-shurely-not/comment-page-1/#comment-155564</link>
		<dc:creator>gmoke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 May 2006 19:32:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/12/election-fraud-in-america-shurely-not/#comment-155564</guid>
		<description>We need a 50 state strategy to ensure that all votes are counted accurately, honestly, and verifiably in 2006, 2008, and thereafter.  I intend to steal my vote back from the thieves who&#039;ve stolen it the last couple of times out.

dkos folk who are interested in this issue are pooling information at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/election_integrity_and_reform/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>We need a 50 state strategy to ensure that all votes are counted accurately, honestly, and verifiably in 2006, 2008, and thereafter.  I intend to steal my vote back from the thieves who&#8217;ve stolen it the last couple of times out.</p>

	<p>dkos folk who are interested in this issue are pooling information at <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/election_integrity_and_reform/" rel="nofollow">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/election_integrity_and_reform/</a></p>
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		<title>By: taj</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/12/election-fraud-in-america-shurely-not/comment-page-1/#comment-155560</link>
		<dc:creator>taj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 May 2006 18:17:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/12/election-fraud-in-america-shurely-not/#comment-155560</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t say categorically whether India&#039;s electoral system is more corrupt than that of the US (in fact, I feel the Electoral Commission is one of the arms of the administration that Indians should be proud of - they do their job under very difficult circumstances and the folks who win are usually the ones people voted for, a useful yardstick for a fair election), on the other hand we _are_ the nation that made booth capturing famous. I recall a story (no links, I shamefully admit) from a recent election where an attempt at capturing was averted by the local booth-in-charge escaping with the voting machine in it&#039;s special briefcase with only a couple of bodyguards. This would have been much harder (impossible?) with boxes full of paper votes. The voting continued once security was beefed up.

Stuart&#039;s assumption that more voters means more spreading out of cost is too idealistic. There is not much money to begin with, and the logistics are made worse by geography and lack of development - if you need to run a voting booth in a remote Himalayan village that is not accessible by road, a briefcase-sized machine is again much easier to handle than boxes of paper.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I can&#8217;t say categorically whether India&#8217;s electoral system is more corrupt than that of the <span class="caps">US </span>(in fact, I feel the Electoral Commission is one of the arms of the administration that Indians should be proud of &#8211; they do their job under very difficult circumstances and the folks who win are usually the ones people voted for, a useful yardstick for a fair election), on the other hand we <em>are</em> the nation that made booth capturing famous. I recall a story (no links, I shamefully admit) from a recent election where an attempt at capturing was averted by the local booth-in-charge escaping with the voting machine in it&#8217;s special briefcase with only a couple of bodyguards. This would have been much harder (impossible?) with boxes full of paper votes. The voting continued once security was beefed up.</p>

	<p>Stuart&#8217;s assumption that more voters means more spreading out of cost is too idealistic. There is not much money to begin with, and the logistics are made worse by geography and lack of development &#8211; if you need to run a voting booth in a remote Himalayan village that is not accessible by road, a briefcase-sized machine is again much easier to handle than boxes of paper.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Bellmore</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/12/election-fraud-in-america-shurely-not/comment-page-1/#comment-155550</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Bellmore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 May 2006 13:55:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/12/election-fraud-in-america-shurely-not/#comment-155550</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;I.e., they actually designed them to prevent fraud, as opposed to Diebold, which doesn’t seem to give two shits about security.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Because the election fraudsters weren&#039;t organized and entrenched enough to make SURE any new machines would be easy to cheat on, natch. 

We&#039;ve known for DECADES of major election fraud in places like Chicago, and of a sort that&#039;s easy to prove. Why hasn&#039;t it been stopped?

It was obvious from the start that voting machines based on general purpose computers were a really bad idea. It went ahead anyway.

There may be a lot of people trying to steal elections in young democracies, but in old democracies they get really good at making sure nothing can be done about it...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8220;I.e., they actually designed them to prevent fraud, as opposed to Diebold, which doesn&#8217;t seem to give two shits about security.&#8221;</i></p>

	<p>Because the election fraudsters weren&#8217;t organized and entrenched enough to make <span class="caps">SURE</span> any new machines would be easy to cheat on, natch.</p>

	<p>We&#8217;ve known for <span class="caps">DECADES</span> of major election fraud in places like Chicago, and of a sort that&#8217;s easy to prove. Why hasn&#8217;t it been stopped?</p>

	<p>It was obvious from the start that voting machines based on general purpose computers were a really bad idea. It went ahead anyway.</p>

	<p>There may be a lot of people trying to steal elections in young democracies, but in old democracies they get really good at making sure nothing can be done about it&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: goatchowder</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/12/election-fraud-in-america-shurely-not/comment-page-1/#comment-155533</link>
		<dc:creator>goatchowder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 May 2006 08:24:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/12/election-fraud-in-america-shurely-not/#comment-155533</guid>
		<description>Open the systems up and run them on Free Software.

http://www.openvotingconsortium.org</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Open the systems up and run them on Free Software.</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.openvotingconsortium.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.openvotingconsortium.org</a></p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/12/election-fraud-in-america-shurely-not/comment-page-1/#comment-155528</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 May 2006 08:02:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/12/election-fraud-in-america-shurely-not/#comment-155528</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;How many of those same-day-count countries have populations of a size comparable to the USA, let alone India?&lt;/i&gt;

Indeed. It may take weeks to the couriers from remote provinces to bring results to the capital.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>How many of those same-day-count countries have populations of a size comparable to the <span class="caps">USA</span>, let alone India?</i></p>

	<p>Indeed. It may take weeks to the couriers from remote provinces to bring results to the capital.</p>
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		<title>By: john m.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/12/election-fraud-in-america-shurely-not/comment-page-1/#comment-155527</link>
		<dc:creator>john m.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 May 2006 07:54:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/12/election-fraud-in-america-shurely-not/#comment-155527</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I guarantee you corruption is way worse in India than it is in the U.S. &lt;/i&gt;

Really? What are you offerring by way of guarantee and what do you offer as proof of this assertion?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I guarantee you corruption is way worse in India than it is in the U.S. </i></p>

	<p>Really? What are you offerring by way of guarantee and what do you offer as proof of this assertion?</p>
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