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	<title>Comments on: Charles Murray&#8217;s In Our Hands &#8211; Left or Right?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/charles-murrays-in-our-hands-left-or-right/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/charles-murrays-in-our-hands-left-or-right/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Σπιτάκι &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Τουρλού 08 &#8212; Θερμόμετρο</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/charles-murrays-in-our-hands-left-or-right/comment-page-2/#comment-158235</link>
		<dc:creator>Σπιτάκι &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Τουρλού 08 &#8212; Θερμόμετρο</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jun 2006 09:05:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/charles-murrays-in-our-hands-left-or-right/#comment-158235</guid>
		<description>[...] Και μια που φτάσαμε στο crooked timber, ρίξτε και μια ματιά και στην ιδέα του Murray. Ενδιαφέρουσα. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] &#922;&#945;&#953; &#956;&#953;&#945; &#960;&#959;&#965; &#966;&#964;ά&#963;&#945;&#956;&#949; &#963;&#964;&#959; crooked timber, &#961;ί&#958;&#964;&#949; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#956;&#953;&#945; &#956;&#945;&#964;&#953;ά &#954;&#945;&#953; &#963;&#964;&#951;&#957; &#953;&#948;έ&#945; &#964;&#959;&#965; Murray. &#917;&#957;&#948;&#953;&#945;&#966;έ&#961;&#959;&#965;&#963;&#945;. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: bob mcmanus</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/charles-murrays-in-our-hands-left-or-right/comment-page-2/#comment-157865</link>
		<dc:creator>bob mcmanus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jun 2006 05:48:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/charles-murrays-in-our-hands-left-or-right/#comment-157865</guid>
		<description>&quot;because topnotch CT commenter bob mcmanus joins in&quot;

I&#039;m sorry, I can&#039;t stop laughing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;because topnotch CT commenter bob mcmanus joins in&#8221;</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m sorry, I can&#8217;t stop laughing.</p>
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		<title>By: Crooked Timber &#187; &#187; Klein on Murray on Health Insurance</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/charles-murrays-in-our-hands-left-or-right/comment-page-2/#comment-157836</link>
		<dc:creator>Crooked Timber &#187; &#187; Klein on Murray on Health Insurance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:16:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/charles-murrays-in-our-hands-left-or-right/#comment-157836</guid>
		<description>[...] Ezra Klein has a nice explanation of the problems with the health insurance proposal in Murray&#8217;s In Our Hands. (Read also numerous comments in the comment section which pretty much do for it anyway). He also expresses puzzlement at the laudatory nature of my review; because topnotch CT commenter bob mcmanus joins in, I explain my reasons there. Ezra says: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] Ezra Klein has a nice explanation of the problems with the health insurance proposal in Murray&#8217;s In Our Hands. (Read also numerous comments in the comment section which pretty much do for it anyway). He also expresses puzzlement at the laudatory nature of my review; because topnotch CT commenter bob mcmanus joins in, I explain my reasons there. Ezra says: [...]</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/charles-murrays-in-our-hands-left-or-right/comment-page-2/#comment-157832</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 18:59:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/charles-murrays-in-our-hands-left-or-right/#comment-157832</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;...insurance companies would be forced to offer coverage”—that part of the grant is probably the stupidest way to implement government-paid health care that anyone could think of...&lt;/i&gt;

Nevertheless, this is pretty much how the Swiss healthcare system works and it&#039;s considered one of the best in the world. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/Switzerland.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here&lt;/a&gt;.

Sorry about the format, stupid pdf:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
Insurers, which under the Health Insurance Law must register with and are monitored by the Federal Social Insurance Office (itself subordinate to the Federal Department of the Interior), are obliged to accept all applicants, thereby avoiding cream-skimming. The insured may change insurer twice per year.

Choice of Insurer: Both registered health insurance funds and private insurers are permitted to provide the compulsory
basic insurance. There are 93 registered insurance funds offering compulsory basic insurance in 2002. In 1993 there
were 207, in 1977, there were 615, in 1945, 1,151. There doubtless will be further insurer mergers. These companies,
whose membership varies in size in 2000 from 256 (Krankenkasse Unitas, Binn), to 1,129,479 (Helsana Versicherung,
Zurich), may be federal, regional (e.g. KK der Region, Goms), religious (e.g. Christlich-Soziale de Schweiz
Versicherung) or occupationally based (e.g. Betriebskrankenkasse der Chocoladefabriken Lindt + Sprungli).18,19,20 All
are run on a not-for-profit basis though under the new CBSI law this is no longer a requirement.21 Insurers group
together in Cantonal and Federal Associations to negotiate fees with service providers, represent the interests of
members, compile statistics and so forth.22 This long-standing group negotiation is likened by many to a cartel.23
Basic Benefits Package: ‘Basic’ is a real misnomer here as it implies that significant elements of healthcare must be
purchased in addition. This is not the case, indeed Zweifel among others likens the Swiss ‘basic’ package to a luxury
one in the US or Germany.24 The health insurance law defines the scope of the benefits package under compulsory
insurance. Benefits are standardised throughout the federation. The package which covers the cost of medical treatment
in the canton of residency, includes inpatient and outpatient care, care for the elderly and physically and mentally
handicapped, unlimited stays in nursing homes and hospitals, diagnosis, and so forth. Since 1999, alternative and
complementary medicine benefits are also included.25 Services covered must meet criteria of clinical effectiveness,
appropriateness and cost-effectiveness. However, these tests have only been applied to potential additions to the package, not those already included.

Premiums: Swiss premiums, which are federally regulated but not fixed, are independent of income. They are
community rated, that is, the same for every person taking out a policy with a given company in a given area,
regardless of individual risk rating. Premiums, which vary from insurer to insurer, may vary by 50% from canton to
canton, and are payable directly to the insurer on a monthly basis. The insured shop around for best premium rates.
Prior to 1996, premiums were risk-related, thus some with high risk found health insurance unaffordable.30 The cost of
insurance is now roughly £1500 per person annually.31 Patients may also opt for bonus options for no claims (as in the
German private insurance market).
&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8230;insurance companies would be forced to offer coverage&#8221;&#8212;that part of the grant is probably the stupidest way to implement government-paid health care that anyone could think of&#8230;</i></p>

	<p>Nevertheless, this is pretty much how the Swiss healthcare system works and it&#8217;s considered one of the best in the world. <a href="http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/Switzerland.pdf" rel="nofollow">Here</a>.</p>

	<p>Sorry about the format, stupid pdf:<br />
<blockquote><br />
Insurers, which under the Health Insurance Law must register with and are monitored by the Federal Social Insurance Office (itself subordinate to the Federal Department of the Interior), are obliged to accept all applicants, thereby avoiding cream-skimming. The insured may change insurer twice per year.</blockquote></p>

	<p>Choice of Insurer: Both registered health insurance funds and private insurers are permitted to provide the compulsory<br />
basic insurance. There are 93 registered insurance funds offering compulsory basic insurance in 2002. In 1993 there<br />
were 207, in 1977, there were 615, in 1945, 1,151. There doubtless will be further insurer mergers. These companies,<br />
whose membership varies in size in 2000 from 256 (Krankenkasse Unitas, Binn), to 1,129,479 (Helsana Versicherung,<br />
Zurich), may be federal, regional (e.g. KK der Region, Goms), religious (e.g. Christlich-Soziale de Schweiz<br />
Versicherung) or occupationally based (e.g. Betriebskrankenkasse der Chocoladefabriken Lindt + Sprungli).18,19,20 All<br />
are run on a not-for-profit basis though under the new <span class="caps">CBSI</span> law this is no longer a requirement.21 Insurers group<br />
together in Cantonal and Federal Associations to negotiate fees with service providers, represent the interests of<br />
members, compile statistics and so forth.22 This long-standing group negotiation is likened by many to a cartel.23<br />
Basic Benefits Package: &#8216;Basic&#8217; is a real misnomer here as it implies that significant elements of healthcare must be<br />
purchased in addition. This is not the case, indeed Zweifel among others likens the Swiss &#8216;basic&#8217; package to a luxury<br />
one in the US or Germany.24 The health insurance law defines the scope of the benefits package under compulsory<br />
insurance. Benefits are standardised throughout the federation. The package which covers the cost of medical treatment<br />
in the canton of residency, includes inpatient and outpatient care, care for the elderly and physically and mentally<br />
handicapped, unlimited stays in nursing homes and hospitals, diagnosis, and so forth. Since 1999, alternative and<br />
complementary medicine benefits are also included.25 Services covered must meet criteria of clinical effectiveness,<br />
appropriateness and cost-effectiveness. However, these tests have only been applied to potential additions to the package, not those already included.</p>

	<p>Premiums: Swiss premiums, which are federally regulated but not fixed, are independent of income. They are<br />
community rated, that is, the same for every person taking out a policy with a given company in a given area,<br />
regardless of individual risk rating. Premiums, which vary from insurer to insurer, may vary by 50% from canton to<br />
canton, and are payable directly to the insurer on a monthly basis. The insured shop around for best premium rates.<br />
Prior to 1996, premiums were risk-related, thus some with high risk found health insurance unaffordable.30 The cost of<br />
insurance is now roughly &#163;1500 per person annually.31 Patients may also opt for bonus options for no claims (as in the<br />
German private insurance market).<br />
</p>
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		<title>By: Carlos</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/charles-murrays-in-our-hands-left-or-right/comment-page-2/#comment-157831</link>
		<dc:creator>Carlos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 18:55:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/charles-murrays-in-our-hands-left-or-right/#comment-157831</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s a a good takedown of the health care proposal section. &quot;http://ezraklein.typepad.com/blog/2006/06/should_i_heart_.html&quot;:url</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Here&#8217;s a a good takedown of the health care proposal section. <a href="url" title="">http://ezraklein.typepad.com/blog/2006/06/should_i_heart_.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Tim Worstall</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/charles-murrays-in-our-hands-left-or-right/comment-page-1/#comment-157830</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Worstall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 18:12:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/charles-murrays-in-our-hands-left-or-right/#comment-157830</guid>
		<description>Paul: Time allocation wise, yes. 127 pages before appendices.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Paul: Time allocation wise, yes. 127 pages before appendices.</p>
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		<title>By: paul</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/charles-murrays-in-our-hands-left-or-right/comment-page-1/#comment-157827</link>
		<dc:creator>paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:41:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/charles-murrays-in-our-hands-left-or-right/#comment-157827</guid>
		<description>I stopped reading seriously somewhere around &quot;insurance companies would be forced to offer coverage&quot; -- that part of the grant is probably the stupidest way to implement government-paid health care that anyone could think of. The idea that you can build up debt against your grant (either by fines or by private contract) does seem brilliantly contrived, though, as does the waving-away of issues with respect to minors in general.

So: from a time-allocation point of view, worth reading?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I stopped reading seriously somewhere around &#8220;insurance companies would be forced to offer coverage&#8221;&#8212;that part of the grant is probably the stupidest way to implement government-paid health care that anyone could think of. The idea that you can build up debt against your grant (either by fines or by private contract) does seem brilliantly contrived, though, as does the waving-away of issues with respect to minors in general.</p>

	<p>So: from a time-allocation point of view, worth reading?</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick S. O'Donnell</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/charles-murrays-in-our-hands-left-or-right/comment-page-1/#comment-157826</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick S. O'Donnell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:13:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/charles-murrays-in-our-hands-left-or-right/#comment-157826</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the link Robin: that New Democracy Forum discussion was quite interesting, as are many of the treatments under that rubric. But 2000 = &#039;years ago&#039;?! I am getting old, and the rest of you must be rather young!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks for the link Robin: that New Democracy Forum discussion was quite interesting, as are many of the treatments under that rubric. But 2000 = &#8216;years ago&#8217;?! I am getting old, and the rest of you must be rather young!</p>
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		<title>By: Robin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/charles-murrays-in-our-hands-left-or-right/comment-page-1/#comment-157824</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 16:30:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/charles-murrays-in-our-hands-left-or-right/#comment-157824</guid>
		<description>Someone suggested meshing basic income grants and a renumeration system where capital and labor would receive shares of the value added qua shares of value added, with contracts specifying divisions of surplus as Marty Weitzman proposed long ago.  It may have been James Meade somewhere in &lt;em&gt;Agathopia&lt;/em&gt;, but I&#039;m not sure.  

Coupled in that way, it may reduce unemployment (while addressing risk aversion constraints for labor) and by framing division as a visible share of surplus issue may help egalitarianism.

There was an interesting &lt;a href=&quot;http://bostonreview.net/ndf.html#Income&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;discussion years ago&lt;/a&gt; in the Boston Review with Herbert A. Simon, Emma Rothschild,  Edmund S. Phelps, Brian Barry, Elizabeth Anderson, Ronald Dore, Fred Block, Robert E. Goodin, Claus Offe and others responding to Van Parjis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Someone suggested meshing basic income grants and a renumeration system where capital and labor would receive shares of the value added qua shares of value added, with contracts specifying divisions of surplus as Marty Weitzman proposed long ago.  It may have been James Meade somewhere in <em>Agathopia</em>, but I&#8217;m not sure.</p>

	<p>Coupled in that way, it may reduce unemployment (while addressing risk aversion constraints for labor) and by framing division as a visible share of surplus issue may help egalitarianism.</p>

	<p>There was an interesting <a href="http://bostonreview.net/ndf.html#Income" rel="nofollow">discussion years ago</a> in the Boston Review with Herbert A. Simon, Emma Rothschild,  Edmund S. Phelps, Brian Barry, Elizabeth Anderson, Ronald Dore, Fred Block, Robert E. Goodin, Claus Offe and others responding to Van Parjis.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick S. O'Donnell</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/charles-murrays-in-our-hands-left-or-right/comment-page-1/#comment-157821</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick S. O'Donnell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 16:09:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/charles-murrays-in-our-hands-left-or-right/#comment-157821</guid>
		<description>Will Wilkinson:

Murray&#039;s book may indeed have been &#039;one of the...most influential written about the American welfare state,&#039; but that simply testifies to the appalling degree of ignorance on such matters in this country. That you would judge it &#039;one of the best...ever written about the American welfare state&#039; assures me your grasp of the relevant literature is weak at best.  

Goodin well took care of Murray&#039;s arguments (and like-minded New Rightists) in the book cited above. In any case, commencing with &#039;1950&#039; hardly amounts to an historical examination of the rationale of the welfare state: see, for example, Michael B. Katz, In The Shadow Of The Poorhouse: A Social History of Welfare in America (New York: Basic Books, 1986). See too Theda Skocpol&#039;s Protecting Soldiers and Mothers: The Political Origins of Social Policy in the United States (Cambridge, MA: Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, 1992).

You might also benefit from intimate acquaintance with Robert E. Goodin, Bruce Headey, Ruud Muffels, and Henk-Jan Dirven, eds., The Real Worlds of Welfare Capitalism (Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press, 1999).

All good wishes,
Patrick</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Will Wilkinson:</p>

	<p>Murray&#8217;s book may indeed have been &#8216;one of the&#8230;most influential written about the American welfare state,&#8217; but that simply testifies to the appalling degree of ignorance on such matters in this country. That you would judge it &#8216;one of the best&#8230;ever written about the American welfare state&#8217; assures me your grasp of the relevant literature is weak at best.</p>

	<p>Goodin well took care of Murray&#8217;s arguments (and like-minded New Rightists) in the book cited above. In any case, commencing with &#8216;1950&#8217; hardly amounts to an historical examination of the rationale of the welfare state: see, for example, Michael B. Katz, In The Shadow Of The Poorhouse: A Social History of Welfare in America (New York: Basic Books, 1986). See too Theda Skocpol&#8217;s Protecting Soldiers and Mothers: The Political Origins of Social Policy in the United States (Cambridge, MA: Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, 1992).</p>

	<p>You might also benefit from intimate acquaintance with Robert E. Goodin, Bruce Headey, Ruud Muffels, and Henk-Jan Dirven, eds., The Real Worlds of Welfare Capitalism (Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press, 1999).</p>

	<p>All good wishes,<br />
Patrick</p>
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		<title>By: theCoach</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/charles-murrays-in-our-hands-left-or-right/comment-page-1/#comment-157819</link>
		<dc:creator>theCoach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:18:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/charles-murrays-in-our-hands-left-or-right/#comment-157819</guid>
		<description>Having not read the book, the health care incentives seem wrong to me. 
If I am an insurance provider required to provide services for everyone at the cost of $3000, and I
 have to answer to shareholders, I would find the most expensive treatments, then make sure our services for them are the worst available.

Politically, it will not happen, and it would have to be airtight to consider dismantling SS.

I would say:
Do it in addition to SS.
Universal healthcare (including children) seperate from this scheme.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Having not read the book, the health care incentives seem wrong to me.<br />
If I am an insurance provider required to provide services for everyone at the cost of $3000, and I<br />
have to answer to shareholders, I would find the most expensive treatments, then make sure our services for them are the worst available.</p>

	<p>Politically, it will not happen, and it would have to be airtight to consider dismantling SS.</p>

	<p>I would say:<br />
Do it in addition to SS.<br />
Universal healthcare (including children) seperate from this scheme.</p>
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		<title>By: Will Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/charles-murrays-in-our-hands-left-or-right/comment-page-1/#comment-157817</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:04:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/charles-murrays-in-our-hands-left-or-right/#comment-157817</guid>
		<description>I find Patrick O&#039;Donnell&#039;s call for reading Murray with a &quot;hermeneutics of suspicion,&quot; based on his not being convinced that Murray understands the historical rationale of the welfare state, pretty amusing. Patrick might wish to read Murray&#039;s &quot;Losing Ground: American Social Policy 1950-1980,&quot; one of the best and most influential books ever written about the American welfare state.

I now read Patrick O&#039;Donnell with a hermeneutics of suspicion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I find Patrick O&#8217;Donnell&#8217;s call for reading Murray with a &#8220;hermeneutics of suspicion,&#8221; based on his not being convinced that Murray understands the historical rationale of the welfare state, pretty amusing. Patrick might wish to read Murray&#8217;s &#8220;Losing Ground: American Social Policy 1950-1980,&#8221; one of the best and most influential books ever written about the American welfare state.</p>

	<p>I now read Patrick O&#8217;Donnell with a hermeneutics of suspicion.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam Morison</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/charles-murrays-in-our-hands-left-or-right/comment-page-1/#comment-157810</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam Morison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 13:30:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/charles-murrays-in-our-hands-left-or-right/#comment-157810</guid>
		<description>In terms of the right-wing bone fides of the idea, no one has yet mentioned F.A. Hayek, who also (surprisingly perhaps) endorsed the notion of a guaranteed minimum income.  As he famously put it in The Mirage of Social Justice, &quot;There is no reason why in a free society government should not assure to all protection against severe deprivation in the form of an assured minimum income,or a floor below which nobody need to descend. . . . So long as such a minimum income is provided outside the market to all those who, for any reason, are unable to earn in the market an adequate maintenance, this need not lead to a restriction on freedom, or conflict with the Rule of Law.&quot; (p. 87)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>In terms of the right-wing bone fides of the idea, no one has yet mentioned F.A. Hayek, who also (surprisingly perhaps) endorsed the notion of a guaranteed minimum income.  As he famously put it in The Mirage of Social Justice, &#8220;There is no reason why in a free society government should not assure to all protection against severe deprivation in the form of an assured minimum income,or a floor below which nobody need to descend. . . . So long as such a minimum income is provided outside the market to all those who, for any reason, are unable to earn in the market an adequate maintenance, this need not lead to a restriction on freedom, or conflict with the Rule of Law.&#8221; (p. 87)</p>
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		<title>By: harry b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/charles-murrays-in-our-hands-left-or-right/comment-page-1/#comment-157806</link>
		<dc:creator>harry b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 13:07:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/charles-murrays-in-our-hands-left-or-right/#comment-157806</guid>
		<description>yes, I meant what was in your second paragraph (and am opposed to what&#039;s in your first para). I asked about it in a workshop on taxation at a big IPPR conference, and everyone looked at me as if I were from outer space, and then carried on as normal. Robert Frank is a big advocate of it here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>yes, I meant what was in your second paragraph (and am opposed to what&#8217;s in your first para). I asked about it in a workshop on taxation at a big <span class="caps">IPPR</span> conference, and everyone looked at me as if I were from outer space, and then carried on as normal. Robert Frank is a big advocate of it here.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Worstall</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/charles-murrays-in-our-hands-left-or-right/comment-page-1/#comment-157804</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Worstall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 12:43:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/charles-murrays-in-our-hands-left-or-right/#comment-157804</guid>
		<description>Depends what type of a consumption tax. If like the &quot;Fair Tax&quot; proposal in the US, a sales tax with rebates for the poorest, then I’m very much against it. For practical reasons (a 23% tax collected at the retail point in one lump? Way too easy for people like me to figure out how to steal a few millions here and there).

If we mean you received $x this year, saved y, then you are taxed on x-y (and the corollary, that if y is negative, then you pay the consumption tax on what you took out of your savings) then yes. That was The Economist’s plan from the mid 1980s.

Progressivity? Meh. Although I do think it outrageous that the poor pay income tax at all. Should start around the median income. If we can’t get enough from those over that to pay for the State then shrink the State.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Depends what type of a consumption tax. If like the &#8220;Fair Tax&#8221; proposal in the US, a sales tax with rebates for the poorest, then I&#8217;m very much against it. For practical reasons (a 23% tax collected at the retail point in one lump? Way too easy for people like me to figure out how to steal a few millions here and there).</p>

	<p>If we mean you received $x this year, saved y, then you are taxed on x-y (and the corollary, that if y is negative, then you pay the consumption tax on what you took out of your savings) then yes. That was The Economist&#8217;s plan from the mid 1980s.</p>

	<p>Progressivity? Meh. Although I do think it outrageous that the poor pay income tax at all. Should start around the median income. If we can&#8217;t get enough from those over that to pay for the State then shrink the State.</p>
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