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	<title>Comments on: Yet more hackery</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/yet-more-hackery/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Σπιτάκι &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Τουρλού 08 &#8212; Θερμόμετρο</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/yet-more-hackery/comment-page-2/#comment-158236</link>
		<dc:creator>Σπιτάκι &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Τουρλού 08 &#8212; Θερμόμετρο</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jun 2006 09:06:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/yet-more-hackery/#comment-158236</guid>
		<description>[...] Και αφού έτσι φτάσαμε στο θέμα του global warming, ρίξτε μια ματιά στο debate περί ενός πρόσφατου άρθρου επί του θέματος. Έξυπνη και αποκαλυπτική τοποθέτηση, ή διαβολικά έξυπνα παραπλανητική τοποθέτηση; Το θέμα είναι σημαντικό, αλλά και δύσκολο προς επίλυση. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] &#922;&#945;&#953; &#945;&#966;&#959;ύ έ&#964;&#963;&#953; &#966;&#964;ά&#963;&#945;&#956;&#949; &#963;&#964;&#959; &#952;έ&#956;&#945; &#964;&#959;&#965; global warming, &#961;ί&#958;&#964;&#949; &#956;&#953;&#945; &#956;&#945;&#964;&#953;ά &#963;&#964;&#959; debate &#960;&#949;&#961;ί &#949;&#957;ό&#962; &#960;&#961;ό&#963;&#966;&#945;&#964;&#959;&#965; ά&#961;&#952;&#961;&#959;&#965; &#949;&#960;ί &#964;&#959;&#965; &#952;έ&#956;&#945;&#964;&#959;&#962;. Έ&#958;&#965;&#960;&#957;&#951; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#945;&#960;&#959;&#954;&#945;&#955;&#965;&#960;&#964;&#953;&#954;ή &#964;&#959;&#960;&#959;&#952;έ&#964;&#951;&#963;&#951;, ή &#948;&#953;&#945;&#946;&#959;&#955;&#953;&#954;ά έ&#958;&#965;&#960;&#957;&#945; &#960;&#945;&#961;&#945;&#960;&#955;&#945;&#957;&#951;&#964;&#953;&#954;ή &#964;&#959;&#960;&#959;&#952;έ&#964;&#951;&#963;&#951;; &#932;&#959; &#952;έ&#956;&#945; &#949;ί&#957;&#945;&#953; &#963;&#951;&#956;&#945;&#957;&#964;&#953;&#954;ό, &#945;&#955;&#955;ά &#954;&#945;&#953; &#948;ύ&#963;&#954;&#959;&#955;&#959; &#960;&#961;&#959;&#962; &#949;&#960;ί&#955;&#965;&#963;&#951;. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Edenbaum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/yet-more-hackery/comment-page-2/#comment-157965</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Edenbaum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jun 2006 19:22:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/yet-more-hackery/#comment-157965</guid>
		<description>&quot;..back on top of his neck.&quot;
It&#039;s still illogical, but at least it makes sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;..back on top of his neck.&#8221;<br />
It&#8217;s still illogical, but at least it makes sense.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Edenbaum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/yet-more-hackery/comment-page-2/#comment-157957</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Edenbaum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jun 2006 17:00:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/yet-more-hackery/#comment-157957</guid>
		<description>All communication should be ideological.
&quot;Form&quot; is only used to carry &quot;content.&quot;
Writers should never leave anything to the imagination: 
the reader should never be allowed to make any decisions for himself (to allow that would be betrayal.)

When DeLong is right he&#039;s right. Even I&#039;ll admit that, and he&#039;s banned my comments. But he understands interpersonal communication about as well as an android, and when he&#039;s wrong his head goes so far up his ass it&#039;s back on top of his head.

And I&#039;ll add one more thing to the list above, since I just read another stupid review of Dennett&#039;s stupid book on religion:

Religious logic is nonsense (so religion serves no logical function)
Lets forget that sciptural interpretation is the origin of the rule of law. 
Ask a lawyer or a historian if the constitution either a product or an example of scientific thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>All communication should be ideological.<br />
&#8220;Form&#8221; is only used to carry &#8220;content.&#8221;<br />
Writers should never leave anything to the imagination:<br />
the reader should never be allowed to make any decisions for himself (to allow that would be betrayal.)</p>

	<p>When DeLong is right he&#8217;s right. Even I&#8217;ll admit that, and he&#8217;s banned my comments. But he understands interpersonal communication about as well as an android, and when he&#8217;s wrong his head goes so far up his ass it&#8217;s back on top of his head.</p>

	<p>And I&#8217;ll add one more thing to the list above, since I just read another stupid review of Dennett&#8217;s stupid book on religion:</p>

	<p>Religious logic is nonsense (so religion serves no logical function)<br />
Lets forget that sciptural interpretation is the origin of the rule of law.<br />
Ask a lawyer or a historian if the constitution either a product or an example of scientific thought.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon H</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/yet-more-hackery/comment-page-2/#comment-157913</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jun 2006 21:23:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/yet-more-hackery/#comment-157913</guid>
		<description>John emerson writes: &quot;William, on the DeLong thread someone just reported that all of his global-warming-denier friends have forwarded him the article.&quot;

These people are &lt;i&gt;stupid&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;can&#039;t read&lt;/i&gt;.

If Achenbach had written the story you wanted, they probably wouldn&#039;t have believed it, probably wouldn&#039;t have read it, or would *still* have thought it supported their case and mailed it around.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>John emerson writes: &#8220;William, on the DeLong thread someone just reported that all of his global-warming-denier friends have forwarded him the article.&#8221;</p>

	<p>These people are <i>stupid</i> and <i>can&#8217;t read</i>.</p>

	<p>If Achenbach had written the story you wanted, they probably wouldn&#8217;t have believed it, probably wouldn&#8217;t have read it, or would <strong>still</strong> have thought it supported their case and mailed it around.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon H</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/yet-more-hackery/comment-page-2/#comment-157911</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jun 2006 21:14:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/yet-more-hackery/#comment-157911</guid>
		<description>john emerson writes: &quot;My claim is that while global warning is a live issue, and it is now, one of the organizing themes of an article about global warming sceptics should be the truth (or otherwise) of what they are saying.&quot;

So is it your contention that when the story talks about parallel earths, Achenbach is saying there really are parallel earths, and not in fact saying that the skeptics describe a non-real earth and therefore they are wrong?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>john emerson writes: &#8220;My claim is that while global warning is a live issue, and it is now, one of the organizing themes of an article about global warming sceptics should be the truth (or otherwise) of what they are saying.&#8221;</p>

	<p>So is it your contention that when the story talks about parallel earths, Achenbach is saying there really are parallel earths, and not in fact saying that the skeptics describe a non-real earth and therefore they are wrong?</p>
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		<title>By: Jon H</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/yet-more-hackery/comment-page-2/#comment-157910</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jun 2006 21:04:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/yet-more-hackery/#comment-157910</guid>
		<description>John emerson writes: &quot;William, neither the lead sentence nor the concluding sentence spelled out the conclusion. It would have been perfectly normal to have done so, in a healthy journalistic environment.&quot;

&lt;i&gt;Only if you&#039;re using a specific rigid definition of journalistic writing style.&lt;/i&gt;

There are other perfectly acceptable styles of writing which are not out of bounds merely because they happen to be published in a newspaper.

&quot;Nothing on the first page tells you anything bad about Bill Gray or his ideas. (In fairness to Aschenbach, the opening line may have been inserted by a copyeditor).&quot;

I&#039;m guessing Achenbach has little to say about where the page breaks fall. They were probably different on the web and in print.

Further, it seems entirely acceptable in a longer piece to use the first portion to set the stage for the reader and as a hook so that they bother reading onward to the second page.

Half the time these days, longer-format stories start with two pages of photography and a single paragraph hook that conveys little or no definitive information. Nothing substantive is found until page 3.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>John emerson writes: &#8220;William, neither the lead sentence nor the concluding sentence spelled out the conclusion. It would have been perfectly normal to have done so, in a healthy journalistic environment.&#8221;</p>

	<p><i>Only if you&#8217;re using a specific rigid definition of journalistic writing style.</i></p>

	<p>There are other perfectly acceptable styles of writing which are not out of bounds merely because they happen to be published in a newspaper.</p>

	<p>&#8220;Nothing on the first page tells you anything bad about Bill Gray or his ideas. (In fairness to Aschenbach, the opening line may have been inserted by a copyeditor).&#8221;</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m guessing Achenbach has little to say about where the page breaks fall. They were probably different on the web and in print.</p>

	<p>Further, it seems entirely acceptable in a longer piece to use the first portion to set the stage for the reader and as a hook so that they bother reading onward to the second page.</p>

	<p>Half the time these days, longer-format stories start with two pages of photography and a single paragraph hook that conveys little or no definitive information. Nothing substantive is found until page 3.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon H</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/yet-more-hackery/comment-page-2/#comment-157909</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jun 2006 20:56:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/yet-more-hackery/#comment-157909</guid>
		<description>&quot; Because one side was clearly wrong, but many readers don’t know that.&quot;

I think clearly saying they are talking about an Earth which is not the real one is a pretty clear statement that they&#039;re wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8221; Because one side was clearly wrong, but many readers don&#8217;t know that.&#8221;</p>

	<p>I think clearly saying they are talking about an Earth which is not the real one is a pretty clear statement that they&#8217;re wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon H</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/yet-more-hackery/comment-page-2/#comment-157908</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jun 2006 20:55:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/yet-more-hackery/#comment-157908</guid>
		<description>john emerson writes: &quot;It would have been perfectly normal to have done so, in a healthy journalistic environment.&quot;

Are you aware that Achenbach has long been the Washington Post&#039;s kinda-casual kinda funny-like-Dave Barry columnist?

This is a long-standing style he&#039;s had. He&#039;s not Walter Pincus, or even Steno Sue, and as far as I know has no pretensions to that kind or level of journalism.

Apparently, he&#039;s doing some more serious pieces, but look where it is - in the Magazine. Which is where you get wordier stories, arranged more elaborately than a 500 word piece about a robbery, with subsections with their own headings and all that fancy-shmancy stuff.

I dunno, I think people are making a bit of a category error here. You may prefer a different article, but I find it difficult to complain about a story which quite explicitly paints the naysayers as loons living in a world which is not the real one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>john emerson writes: &#8220;It would have been perfectly normal to have done so, in a healthy journalistic environment.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Are you aware that Achenbach has long been the Washington Post&#8217;s kinda-casual kinda funny-like-Dave Barry columnist?</p>

	<p>This is a long-standing style he&#8217;s had. He&#8217;s not Walter Pincus, or even Steno Sue, and as far as I know has no pretensions to that kind or level of journalism.</p>

	<p>Apparently, he&#8217;s doing some more serious pieces, but look where it is &#8211; in the Magazine. Which is where you get wordier stories, arranged more elaborately than a 500 word piece about a robbery, with subsections with their own headings and all that fancy-shmancy stuff.</p>

	<p>I dunno, I think people are making a bit of a category error here. You may prefer a different article, but I find it difficult to complain about a story which quite explicitly paints the naysayers as loons living in a world which is not the real one.</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/yet-more-hackery/comment-page-2/#comment-157885</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jun 2006 13:30:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/yet-more-hackery/#comment-157885</guid>
		<description>Go piss up a rope, tim.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Go piss up a rope, tim.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Curtin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/yet-more-hackery/comment-page-2/#comment-157877</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Curtin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jun 2006 11:13:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/yet-more-hackery/#comment-157877</guid>
		<description>According to JQ, &quot;Richard Lindzen, prominent MIT climate scientist, is an irresponsible contrarian, who’s prepared to defend an implausible position on the off chance of being right when everyone else is wrong&quot;. 
This could with equal justice read: 
&quot;John Quiggin, prominent University of Queensland non-climate scientist, is an irresponsible contrarian, who’s prepared to defend an implausible position on the off chance of being right when everyone else is wrong&quot; 
Certainly attempts by me to prove that the latter is the case have been disbarred from said JQ&#039;s blog and his mate Tim Lambert&#039;s Deltoid, on the grounds of being &quot;personal attacks&quot;. What is JQ&#039;s comment on RL then?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>According to JQ, &#8220;Richard Lindzen, prominent <span class="caps">MIT</span> climate scientist, is an irresponsible contrarian, who&#8217;s prepared to defend an implausible position on the off chance of being right when everyone else is wrong&#8221;.<br />
This could with equal justice read:<br />
&#8220;John Quiggin, prominent University of Queensland non-climate scientist, is an irresponsible contrarian, who&#8217;s prepared to defend an implausible position on the off chance of being right when everyone else is wrong&#8221;<br />
Certainly attempts by me to prove that the latter is the case have been disbarred from said JQ&#8217;s blog and his mate Tim Lambert&#8217;s Deltoid, on the grounds of being &#8220;personal attacks&#8221;. What is JQ&#8217;s comment on RL then?</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/yet-more-hackery/comment-page-2/#comment-157855</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jun 2006 00:09:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/yet-more-hackery/#comment-157855</guid>
		<description>This is not a POV thing, ct. Prominently stating the facts of an important question in a story touching on that question is not POV. It&#039;s journalism, and you&#039;re an idiot. 

It would have been very easy to do that without harming the piece in any way or changing it much at all, but it was not done because the media are intimidated and American journalism is spineless by choice.

As I&#039;ve said several times, deniers believe that this piece makes them look good, and for a lot of Americans it does.

I am apparently closer to certain blocs of the American electorate than anyone else here except shinypenny. Most people here don&#039;t know anyone who  would misread this piece, but lots of people I know would. So you are finer people than I am! (And I am a snob, too -- thank you Chris). 

But Bush gets elected by the people I know (the famous whim voters, usually called swing voters), and for the Bush people there&#039;s nothing to complain about in Achenbach&#039;s piece (though they might complain anyway, just on general principles).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This is not a <span class="caps">POV</span> thing, ct. Prominently stating the facts of an important question in a story touching on that question is not <span class="caps">POV</span>. It&#8217;s journalism, and you&#8217;re an idiot.</p>

	<p>It would have been very easy to do that without harming the piece in any way or changing it much at all, but it was not done because the media are intimidated and American journalism is spineless by choice.</p>

	<p>As I&#8217;ve said several times, deniers believe that this piece makes them look good, and for a lot of Americans it does.</p>

	<p>I am apparently closer to certain blocs of the American electorate than anyone else here except shinypenny. Most people here don&#8217;t know anyone who  would misread this piece, but lots of people I know would. So you are finer people than I am! (And I am a snob, too&#8212;thank you Chris).</p>

	<p>But Bush gets elected by the people I know (the famous whim voters, usually called swing voters), and for the Bush people there&#8217;s nothing to complain about in Achenbach&#8217;s piece (though they might complain anyway, just on general principles).</p>
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		<title>By: 4&#38;20 blackbirds &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Missoulian&#8217;s anti-evolutionary essay</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/yet-more-hackery/comment-page-2/#comment-157841</link>
		<dc:creator>4&#38;20 blackbirds &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Missoulian&#8217;s anti-evolutionary essay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 21:26:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/yet-more-hackery/#comment-157841</guid>
		<description>[...] Got that? A bunch of academic hacks and pay-for-results corporate shills produce reports of dubious scientific value, which are then given equal weight by newspapers and television in their striving for &#8220;objectivity.&#8221; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] Got that? A bunch of academic hacks and pay-for-results corporate shills produce reports of dubious scientific value, which are then given equal weight by newspapers and television in their striving for &ldquo;objectivity.&rdquo; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: CT</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/yet-more-hackery/comment-page-2/#comment-157840</link>
		<dc:creator>CT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:55:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/yet-more-hackery/#comment-157840</guid>
		<description>So, Mr. Achenbach&#039;s article is to be condemned because it lacks the clear and concise statements of opinion corresponding with John Emerson&#039;s point of view. That about sums it up. Here&#039;s a hint, John: Get your own column at a regional newspaper and you can state your opinion clearly and concisely. You don&#039;t have to suffer the nuanced, &quot;balanced,&quot; even humorous prose of other writers. Fair enough?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>So, Mr. Achenbach&#8217;s article is to be condemned because it lacks the clear and concise statements of opinion corresponding with John Emerson&#8217;s point of view. That about sums it up. Here&#8217;s a hint, John: Get your own column at a regional newspaper and you can state your opinion clearly and concisely. You don&#8217;t have to suffer the nuanced, &#8220;balanced,&#8221; even humorous prose of other writers. Fair enough?</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/yet-more-hackery/comment-page-2/#comment-157838</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:29:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/yet-more-hackery/#comment-157838</guid>
		<description>&quot;the less-fearsome people&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;the less-fearsome people&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/yet-more-hackery/comment-page-2/#comment-157837</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:29:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/01/yet-more-hackery/#comment-157837</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve said why, Christopher. Achenbach has written a subtle, nuanced, two-tier story which makes intelligent people happy without offending stupid, wrong-headed people. Everyone&#039;s happy, including people who depend on the votes of the stupid worng-headed misinformed people. But everyone should not be happy.

It&#039;s already been reported that skeptics are emailing this around as supportative of their position. 

Please don&#039;t call me an elitist, and I won&#039;t call you.... something worse. That was a silly thing to say. There really are a lot of stupid, dishonest people out there, and this country is suffering terribly from that fact.  

In the world of today, being a professional journalist is not something to brag about. Many professional journalist seem to take pride in how much they make for doing bad work.

&quot;Why should [Aschenbach] declare sides?&quot; Because one side was clearly wrong, but many readers don&#039;t know that.  

What Aschenbach said was that it&#039;s hard to have an intelligent argument about anything in this polarized country. What he meant, in this case, was that if he told the truth he would be attacked by a mob of fanatics. So he nuanced what he said in order to avoid attacks.  And now he&#039;s being attacked by the less-fearsome who wanted an explicit statement of the truth. There&#039;s really no parity there, and I hope that n one thinks that there is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;ve said why, Christopher. Achenbach has written a subtle, nuanced, two-tier story which makes intelligent people happy without offending stupid, wrong-headed people. Everyone&#8217;s happy, including people who depend on the votes of the stupid worng-headed misinformed people. But everyone should not be happy.</p>

	<p>It&#8217;s already been reported that skeptics are emailing this around as supportative of their position.</p>

	<p>Please don&#8217;t call me an elitist, and I won&#8217;t call you&#8230;. something worse. That was a silly thing to say. There really are a lot of stupid, dishonest people out there, and this country is suffering terribly from that fact.</p>

	<p>In the world of today, being a professional journalist is not something to brag about. Many professional journalist seem to take pride in how much they make for doing bad work.</p>

	<p>&#8220;Why should [Aschenbach] declare sides?&#8221; Because one side was clearly wrong, but many readers don&#8217;t know that.</p>

	<p>What Aschenbach said was that it&#8217;s hard to have an intelligent argument about anything in this polarized country. What he meant, in this case, was that if he told the truth he would be attacked by a mob of fanatics. So he nuanced what he said in order to avoid attacks.  And now he&#8217;s being attacked by the less-fearsome who wanted an explicit statement of the truth. There&#8217;s really no parity there, and I hope that n one thinks that there is.</p>
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