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	<title>Comments on: Cephalusblegging and the Cult of Bendis</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/06/cephalusblegging-and-the-cult-of-bendis/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: JoséAngel</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/06/cephalusblegging-and-the-cult-of-bendis/comment-page-1/#comment-158626</link>
		<dc:creator>JoséAngel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jun 2006 05:35:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>On navigation, arms making and the origin of capitalism and the State in ancient Greece:
http://pompilos.org/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>On navigation, arms making and the origin of capitalism and the State in ancient Greece:<br />
<a href="http://pompilos.org/" rel="nofollow">http://pompilos.org/</a></p>
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		<title>By: agm</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/06/cephalusblegging-and-the-cult-of-bendis/comment-page-1/#comment-158472</link>
		<dc:creator>agm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jun 2006 02:40:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4760#comment-158472</guid>
		<description>Rule of Acquisition 34: War is good for business.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Rule of Acquisition 34: War is good for business.</p>
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		<title>By: Kattai</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/06/cephalusblegging-and-the-cult-of-bendis/comment-page-1/#comment-158460</link>
		<dc:creator>Kattai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:53:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4760#comment-158460</guid>
		<description>http://classics.lss.wisc.edu/faculty.html
I was a Classics Graduate Student at U of W Madison. Any of the Professors at the above link can help.  Try Patricia Rosenmeyer or Barry Powell.  Sorry I can help personally.  Happy hunting!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><a href="http://classics.lss.wisc.edu/faculty.html" rel="nofollow">http://classics.lss.wisc.edu/faculty.html</a><br />
I was a Classics Graduate Student at U of W Madison. Any of the Professors at the above link can help.  Try Patricia Rosenmeyer or Barry Powell.  Sorry I can help personally.  Happy hunting!</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Scott Eric Kaufman</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/06/cephalusblegging-and-the-cult-of-bendis/comment-page-1/#comment-158448</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Eric Kaufman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jun 2006 21:38:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4760#comment-158448</guid>
		<description>For some reason I feel like I should weigh in on this issue, but really, I&#039;ve got nothing.  (Except that the new Twilight Singers album sounds nothing like the former ones and everything like mid-period Afghan Whigs, with the possible exception of &quot;My Time Has Come,&quot; which could&#039;ve come off one of the later ones.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>For some reason I feel like I should weigh in on this issue, but really, I&#8217;ve got nothing.  (Except that the new Twilight Singers album sounds nothing like the former ones and everything like mid-period Afghan Whigs, with the possible exception of &#8220;My Time Has Come,&#8221; which could&#8217;ve come off one of the later ones.)</p>
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		<title>By: Tim McG</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/06/cephalusblegging-and-the-cult-of-bendis/comment-page-1/#comment-158382</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim McG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jun 2006 14:47:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4760#comment-158382</guid>
		<description>If you&#039;re interested in Athenian citizenship, you might also look at Edward Cohen&#039;s &lt;i&gt;The Athenian Nation&lt;/i&gt;, wherein he argues &lt;i&gt;inter alia&lt;/i&gt; that Perikles&#039; citizenship law did not restrict citizenship to the children of two Athenian citizens (&lt;i&gt;polites&lt;/i&gt;), as it is commonly interpreted, but to the children of two Athenian residents (&lt;i&gt;astoi&lt;/i&gt;). So the children of metics, for example, could, if they wanted to, get themselves enrolled as citizens. 

There was also at least one deme which was proverbial for not looking into your background before enrolling you as a citizen, and I&#039;m totally blanking on the name of it (the saying goes, &quot;today a slave, tomorrow a demesman of...&quot;). Cohen mentions it a few times, too. 

I&#039;d have a hard time believing that phratry membership would get you very far, but I&#039;d be willing to accept cult membership as doing so: you hang out with a bunch of people for five or ten years, letting on that you&#039;re a citizen, and, in the near-total absence of written records, next time someone questions you about it, you say, &quot;hey, I&#039;m a citizen, just ask all my buddies down at the cult!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If you&#8217;re interested in Athenian citizenship, you might also look at Edward Cohen&#8217;s <i>The Athenian Nation</i>, wherein he argues <i>inter alia</i> that Perikles&#8217; citizenship law did not restrict citizenship to the children of two Athenian citizens (<i>polites</i>), as it is commonly interpreted, but to the children of two Athenian residents (<i>astoi</i>). So the children of metics, for example, could, if they wanted to, get themselves enrolled as citizens.</p>

	<p>There was also at least one deme which was proverbial for not looking into your background before enrolling you as a citizen, and I&#8217;m totally blanking on the name of it (the saying goes, &#8220;today a slave, tomorrow a demesman of&#8230;&#8221;). Cohen mentions it a few times, too.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;d have a hard time believing that phratry membership would get you very far, but I&#8217;d be willing to accept cult membership as doing so: you hang out with a bunch of people for five or ten years, letting on that you&#8217;re a citizen, and, in the near-total absence of written records, next time someone questions you about it, you say, &#8220;hey, I&#8217;m a citizen, just ask all my buddies down at the cult!&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: John Holbo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/06/cephalusblegging-and-the-cult-of-bendis/comment-page-1/#comment-158368</link>
		<dc:creator>John Holbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jun 2006 12:36:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4760#comment-158368</guid>
		<description>Thanks for comments, everyone, this has been an extremely helpful thread - thanks especially to ettinauer and tim, for the references. (Jokes are nice too, of course. I like them.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks for comments, everyone, this has been an extremely helpful thread &#8211; thanks especially to ettinauer and tim, for the references. (Jokes are nice too, of course. I like them.)</p>
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		<title>By: ettinauer</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/06/cephalusblegging-and-the-cult-of-bendis/comment-page-1/#comment-158358</link>
		<dc:creator>ettinauer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jun 2006 06:22:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4760#comment-158358</guid>
		<description>And just to expand a little, now that I&#039;ve had a chance to look at a few actual books:  I&#039;m not familiar with Pappas, but it looks like he&#039;s eliding a fair amount of controversy (which may well be appropriate to the nature of his book) when he specifies the dates you mention above.  

422 is by no means solidly established as the dramatic date of the dialogue (although it has influential adherents).  And it looks like establishing the dramatic date and the date of the of the first Bendideia (and the associated inscription) are related problems.  Middle of last century, there was a consensus that the inscription was from 430 or so, though there seem to be only a few scholars who dated the &lt;i&gt;Republic&lt;/i&gt; accordingly (it would be at odds with biographical details about Cephalos and his family from external--though questionable--sources, partcularly the biography of Lysias attributed to Plutarch).

The current consensus (of the two or three people who actually care about this) seems to be that the inscription/founding of the Bendideia date to 413/2, which, if correct, would arguably put the dialogue there, too (and thus well after the Peace of Nikias and not long after the Sicilian disater; though this, too, presents biograpical difficulties).  (A delay between introduction of the cult and establishment of a festival might not be strange if the cult was originally essentially a Thracian ex-pat organization with a local seal of approval, and only later was an effort made to integrate it.  In fact, it might not be strange regardless; there aren&#039;t a whole lot of data points on cult importation/festival establishment in this period.)

Of course, any attempt to fix the dialogue&#039;s dramatic date on internal evidence like this assumes that Plato both intended and achieved chronological verisimilitude; and scholars since antiquity have recognized that this is a dubious assumption.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>And just to expand a little, now that I&#8217;ve had a chance to look at a few actual books:  I&#8217;m not familiar with Pappas, but it looks like he&#8217;s eliding a fair amount of controversy (which may well be appropriate to the nature of his book) when he specifies the dates you mention above.</p>

	<p>422 is by no means solidly established as the dramatic date of the dialogue (although it has influential adherents).  And it looks like establishing the dramatic date and the date of the of the first Bendideia (and the associated inscription) are related problems.  Middle of last century, there was a consensus that the inscription was from 430 or so, though there seem to be only a few scholars who dated the <i>Republic</i> accordingly (it would be at odds with biographical details about Cephalos and his family from external&#8212;though questionable&#8212;sources, partcularly the biography of Lysias attributed to Plutarch).</p>

	<p>The current consensus (of the two or three people who actually care about this) seems to be that the inscription/founding of the Bendideia date to 413/2, which, if correct, would arguably put the dialogue there, too (and thus well after the Peace of Nikias and not long after the Sicilian disater; though this, too, presents biograpical difficulties).  (A delay between introduction of the cult and establishment of a festival might not be strange if the cult was originally essentially a Thracian ex-pat organization with a local seal of approval, and only later was an effort made to integrate it.  In fact, it might not be strange regardless; there aren&#8217;t a whole lot of data points on cult importation/festival establishment in this period.)</p>

	<p>Of course, any attempt to fix the dialogue&#8217;s dramatic date on internal evidence like this assumes that Plato both intended and achieved chronological verisimilitude; and scholars since antiquity have recognized that this is a dubious assumption.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/06/cephalusblegging-and-the-cult-of-bendis/comment-page-1/#comment-158353</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jun 2006 04:43:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4760#comment-158353</guid>
		<description>Most read... Aren&#039;t we forgetting Jesus, George W. Bush&#039;s favourite political philosopher?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Most read&#8230; Aren&#8217;t we forgetting Jesus, George W. Bush&#8217;s favourite political philosopher?</p>
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		<title>By: radek</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/06/cephalusblegging-and-the-cult-of-bendis/comment-page-1/#comment-158337</link>
		<dc:creator>radek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jun 2006 23:01:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4760#comment-158337</guid>
		<description>There is a citation on that info. Is it recent?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>There is a citation on that info. Is it recent?</p>
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		<title>By: Ted</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/06/cephalusblegging-and-the-cult-of-bendis/comment-page-1/#comment-158335</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jun 2006 22:22:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4760#comment-158335</guid>
		<description>Bob --

As I&#039;m sure you already know, the Piraeus was also the place from which Thrasybulus launched the attack on Athens to restore the democracy in 404.

It may be that the alienness of Piraeus made it the perfect spot to discuss the radical ideas found in the Republic.  Alternately, it may be that Plato wants to show that even in such a setting philosophy is possible if you keep it private and discuss things with only the few people able to appreciate it (e.g., not Cephalus, who is removed from the scene early on).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Bob&#8212;<br />
As I&#8217;m sure you already know, the Piraeus was also the place from which Thrasybulus launched the attack on Athens to restore the democracy in 404.</p>

	<p>It may be that the alienness of Piraeus made it the perfect spot to discuss the radical ideas found in the Republic.  Alternately, it may be that Plato wants to show that even in such a setting philosophy is possible if you keep it private and discuss things with only the few people able to appreciate it (e.g., not Cephalus, who is removed from the scene early on).</p>
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		<title>By: Tim O'Keefe</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/06/cephalusblegging-and-the-cult-of-bendis/comment-page-1/#comment-158317</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim O'Keefe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jun 2006 19:14:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4760#comment-158317</guid>
		<description>A good source to answer questions of this sort is _The People of Plato: A Prosopography of Plato and Other Socratics_, by  Debra Nails (Hackett 2003). Actually, it&#039;s an excellent source.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>A good source to answer questions of this sort is <em>The People of Plato: A Prosopography of Plato and Other Socratics</em>, by&#160;&#160;Debra Nails (Hackett 2003). Actually, it&#8217;s an excellent source.</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/06/cephalusblegging-and-the-cult-of-bendis/comment-page-1/#comment-158313</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jun 2006 18:39:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4760#comment-158313</guid>
		<description>Some things about Bendis &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bu.edu/wcp/Papers/Educ/EducKren.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Some things about Bendis <a href="http://www.bu.edu/wcp/Papers/Educ/EducKren.htm" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/06/cephalusblegging-and-the-cult-of-bendis/comment-page-1/#comment-158312</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jun 2006 18:36:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4760#comment-158312</guid>
		<description>Allan Bloom&#039;s translation of the Republic discusses the significance of Piraeus, Cephalus, Polemarchus, etc. Straussian POV aside, I found his conclusions interesting and perhaps convincing. I can&#039;t remeber whether he mentions Bendis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Allan Bloom&#8217;s translation of the Republic discusses the significance of Piraeus, Cephalus, Polemarchus, etc. Straussian <span class="caps">POV</span> aside, I found his conclusions interesting and perhaps convincing. I can&#8217;t remeber whether he mentions Bendis.</p>
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		<title>By: bob violence</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/06/cephalusblegging-and-the-cult-of-bendis/comment-page-1/#comment-158308</link>
		<dc:creator>bob violence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jun 2006 18:12:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4760#comment-158308</guid>
		<description>Yes, Thracian timber. Very important stuff for a naval power. Thrace also had precious metals, primarily gold. The Athenians repeatedly tried to establish colonies in Thrace (Amphipolis is the most important one), but they kept getting destroyed, conquered, or sometimes decided to revolt on their own. The historian Thucydides was exiled in 424 because he couldn&#039;t reach Amphipolis in time to prevent its surrender to the Spartans.

The cult of Bendis had some pretty unusual features: her shrine was owned by a group of resident Thracians, who also organized the procession from the Prytaneion in Athens to the Bendideion in Piraeus. There&#039;s no other state festival in which non-citizens have such a prominent role. (This is from Robert Parker&#039;s &lt;i&gt;Athenian Religion&lt;/i&gt;, which is using the inscriptions that ettinauer mentions above. Parker also cites R.R. Simms, &quot;The Cult of the Thracian Goddess Bendis in Athens and Attica,&quot; &lt;i&gt;Ancient World&lt;/i&gt; 18 (1988) 59-76.)

I&#039;m starting to find it quite odd that Plato sends Socrates down to the Piraeus to discuss the ideal city. As much as Plato disliked certain features of Athenian society, he must have disdained the Piraeus even more, since it was the most mercantile and sea-oriented part of Attica, probably had many foreigners living there, and was, according to later authors, where the most radical democrats lived. In going from Athens to Piraeus it&#039;s almost like Socrates is going to the antitype of the Kallipolis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yes, Thracian timber. Very important stuff for a naval power. Thrace also had precious metals, primarily gold. The Athenians repeatedly tried to establish colonies in Thrace (Amphipolis is the most important one), but they kept getting destroyed, conquered, or sometimes decided to revolt on their own. The historian Thucydides was exiled in 424 because he couldn&#8217;t reach Amphipolis in time to prevent its surrender to the Spartans.</p>

	<p>The cult of Bendis had some pretty unusual features: her shrine was owned by a group of resident Thracians, who also organized the procession from the Prytaneion in Athens to the Bendideion in Piraeus. There&#8217;s no other state festival in which non-citizens have such a prominent role. (This is from Robert Parker&#8217;s <i>Athenian Religion</i>, which is using the inscriptions that ettinauer mentions above. Parker also cites R.R. Simms, &#8220;The Cult of the Thracian Goddess Bendis in Athens and Attica,&#8221; <i>Ancient World</i> 18 (1988) 59-76.)</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m starting to find it quite odd that Plato sends Socrates down to the Piraeus to discuss the ideal city. As much as Plato disliked certain features of Athenian society, he must have disdained the Piraeus even more, since it was the most mercantile and sea-oriented part of Attica, probably had many foreigners living there, and was, according to later authors, where the most radical democrats lived. In going from Athens to Piraeus it&#8217;s almost like Socrates is going to the antitype of the Kallipolis.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Farber</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/06/cephalusblegging-and-the-cult-of-bendis/comment-page-1/#comment-158303</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Farber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jun 2006 17:29:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4760#comment-158303</guid>
		<description>&quot;I’m Apollo. No, I’M Apollo! I’m Apollo, and so is Belle!&quot;

Where&#039;s Starbuck, and does she have your Arrow?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;I&#8217;m Apollo. No, I&#8217;M Apollo! I&#8217;m Apollo, and so is Belle!&#8221;</p>

	<p>Where&#8217;s Starbuck, and does she have your Arrow?</p>
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