What, the London bombings is a proof of the existence of Al-Qaeda? How? Why is not a proof of the existence of, say, Satan?

Not really, in fact not at all. Bush not only has not lied (yes WMD’s have been found in Iraq) the only lies I have seen since Sept.11 have all come from the Left. The best being the branless BBC’s propaganda doco claiming Al-Qaeda did not exist and that the threat was manufactured. Not long after this leftist tripe was shown on Brit tv the London bombimgs happened. Oops.

You are right, I apologize.

I still cannot think straight about things like the Schiavo case or torture. They drive me nuts.

Gitmo was not a choice of bad to prevent worse, but it was a choice of cruelty, torture and abuse in place of the rule of law. Those who made the choice made the wrong one.

Politics and diplomacy may be such that there must be a way out of here without anyone admitting guilt, but to do that with excuses like that “black” prison sites are worse (“as a practical matter”) is beyond me.

“what, exactly, with the detainees?” is exactly the wrong question. They should not have been there in the first place.

Shifting the detainees into invisible indefinite detention is not progress.

Marty isn’t in favor of trials resulting in sentences. He regards those who actually are enemies of the US at Guantanamo as POWS who should be held forever. When Bush and Cheney talk about a 100 year “war” that’s effectively what they mean.

Of course, U.S. prisons are a nightmare and most of us close our eyes to that easily. How much more easy it is when these things aren’t on our soil, though.

I say this as someone who thinks the average American is not responsible for going to war in Iraq or Afghanistan in any meaningful sense. But now that we are at war, we have a duty to do what we can to prevent injustices and worse, atrocities. It’s harder to do this when those things happen offshore.

However, Guantanamo Bay’s leagal status, US presence there against the wish of the local sovereign government is itself an example and symbol of colonial abomination. Perpetual lease, huh.

If so, one question:

“How in f**ks name do you know that?”

“Because my government said so.”

“Ah. Spotted the catch?”

Hey, Steve Labonne, don’t disgrace yourself this way. Go over to balkinization and do a little homework, you fuckwit.

If you give a shit about the souls involved, Marty is right. We need to get them into a regular legal framework.

The guilty fuckers need to be sentenced. The innocent need to be set free.

Shifting the detainees into invisible indefinite detention is not progress.

What was sold as a war of defence (the homeland) morphed into something else entirely. People like Fukuyama and Hitchens watched as theory collapsed in the face of a maelstrom. Suddenly all bets were off.

Bush and co have persisted in the “taking the war to them” posture, which makes no sense at all when the enemy is ephemeral and draws from a large pool of faceless young men in an equally hard-to-define Umma. This isn’t war with a clearly defined enemy – this is a militarized version of cat and mouse, full of half-truths and outright fictions.

The way forward is to change this counter productive strategy and forge relationships in the region and beyond by demonstrating goodwill. The U.S. should offer transparency and generosity, while not altogether lowering its guard.

The crew in Gitmo matter a hell of a lot less to the successful conclusion of this “war”, than the goodwill of mainstram Muslims who would shift further to the middle with a change in US policy.

Our Canadian troops are in Afghanistan, and I tend to view that regional struggle in a different context, although doubtless it is also an aggravating factor for many Muslims. But given the legendary barbarity of Taliban rule, I would say that deep down most Muslims understand that that is a place to which they would rather not return.

Contrary to Mr Lederman’s contention, I do think that Gitmo is symbolic and that the correct handling of that institutional challenge would signal a new approach.

As it is, something has to give …

Bullshit. It has become a symbol-among-symbols … a veritable beacon on the hill testifying to judicial short cuts, high handed militarism and cultural supremacy.

You can tinker all you want and make it a latter-day Eden, but once the above symbolism has embedded itself in the collective unconscious all such reformist endevors will simply become an exercise in futility. It has to go – period (didn’t Bush say something along those lines?).

This cant about the hazards of freeing “dangerous elements” and reforming the facility is utter crap. There are legions of angry young muslims around the globe ready and willing to step up. It isn’t about who is released and on what terms, it’s about altering our ways of doing business and living up to our principles.