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	<title>Comments on: You Can Say That Here</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/27/tariq-ramadan-again/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/27/tariq-ramadan-again/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Uncle Kvetch</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/27/tariq-ramadan-again/comment-page-1/#comment-161711</link>
		<dc:creator>Uncle Kvetch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:21:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/27/tariq-ramadan-again/#comment-161711</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;It’s freedom of speech, not freedom of having something to listen to.&lt;/i&gt;

By that logic, the government could arrest people for having books by foreign authors in their homes, without in any way encroaching on their First Amendment rights. They&#039;re not being arrested for anything they &lt;i&gt;said,&lt;/i&gt; after all, so the Constitution is irrelevant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>It&#8217;s freedom of speech, not freedom of having something to listen to.</i></p>

	<p>By that logic, the government could arrest people for having books by foreign authors in their homes, without in any way encroaching on their First Amendment rights. They&#8217;re not being arrested for anything they <i>said,</i> after all, so the Constitution is irrelevant.</p>
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		<title>By: brooksfoe</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/27/tariq-ramadan-again/comment-page-1/#comment-161692</link>
		<dc:creator>brooksfoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:08:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/27/tariq-ramadan-again/#comment-161692</guid>
		<description>abb1, this reasoning sounds like the reasoning of a non-lawyer. Which, in the normal world of human moral reasoning, is a good thing. But, in the world of thinking about how the law works, is a bad thing. (Spoken as a non-lawyer, whose thinking about the law is usually faulty.)

I do however imagine that judges might interpret the definition of &quot;freedom of speech&quot; as necessarily implying the right to be heard, while still not granting a right to hear others&#039; speech. But I have no idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>abb1, this reasoning sounds like the reasoning of a non-lawyer. Which, in the normal world of human moral reasoning, is a good thing. But, in the world of thinking about how the law works, is a bad thing. (Spoken as a non-lawyer, whose thinking about the law is usually faulty.)</p>

	<p>I do however imagine that judges might interpret the definition of &#8220;freedom of speech&#8221; as necessarily implying the right to be heard, while still not granting a right to hear others&#8217; speech. But I have no idea.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/27/tariq-ramadan-again/comment-page-1/#comment-161680</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:59:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/27/tariq-ramadan-again/#comment-161680</guid>
		<description>Suppose they place every individual American into a personal sound-proof bubble. When you talk inside your bubble no one will hear you, but you still can talk freely in there. So, technically, there is no constitutional violation here, correct?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Suppose they place every individual American into a personal sound-proof bubble. When you talk inside your bubble no one will hear you, but you still can talk freely in there. So, technically, there is no constitutional violation here, correct?</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Bellmore</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/27/tariq-ramadan-again/comment-page-1/#comment-161677</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Bellmore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:29:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/27/tariq-ramadan-again/#comment-161677</guid>
		<description>Not unless Al Jazeera or the BBC were hiring &lt;i&gt;Americans&lt;/i&gt; to do their speaking. It&#039;s freedom of speech, not freedom of having something to listen to.

Don&#039;t, by the way, assume that I think keeping him out is good &lt;i&gt;policy&lt;/i&gt;. I don&#039;t. Plenty of bad policies are constitutional.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Not unless Al Jazeera or the <span class="caps">BBC</span> were hiring <i>Americans</i> to do their speaking. It&#8217;s freedom of speech, not freedom of having something to listen to.</p>

	<p>Don&#8217;t, by the way, assume that I think keeping him out is good <i>policy</i>. I don&#8217;t. Plenty of bad policies are constitutional.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Martens</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/27/tariq-ramadan-again/comment-page-1/#comment-161676</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Martens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:28:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/27/tariq-ramadan-again/#comment-161676</guid>
		<description>Brett, you have the facts of the case wrong.  Ramadan, having had a visa revoked, may not enter the US even as a visitor to speak at conferences without obtaining a visa in advance. The order in this case refers to a decision on a non-immigrant ordinary entry visa.  The &lt;a href=&quot;http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/wait/tempvisitors_wait_result.php?post=Bern&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;State Department website&lt;/a&gt; says that for the Bern consulate the average wait time for a non-immigrant visa is 2 days.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Brett, you have the facts of the case wrong.  Ramadan, having had a visa revoked, may not enter the US even as a visitor to speak at conferences without obtaining a visa in advance. The order in this case refers to a decision on a non-immigrant ordinary entry visa.  The <a href="http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/wait/tempvisitors_wait_result.php?post=Bern" rel="nofollow">State Department website</a> says that for the Bern consulate the average wait time for a non-immigrant visa is 2 days.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/27/tariq-ramadan-again/comment-page-1/#comment-161675</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:16:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/27/tariq-ramadan-again/#comment-161675</guid>
		<description>Brett, suppose they ban Al-Jazeera or BBC from broadcasting in the US. 

Suppose they start running powerful noise generators on Al-Jazeera&#039;s and BBC&#039;s frequencies. 

Would that, in your opinion, interfere with the free speech rights of &lt;i&gt;Americans&lt;/i&gt;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Brett, suppose they ban Al-Jazeera or <span class="caps">BBC</span> from broadcasting in the US.</p>

	<p>Suppose they start running powerful noise generators on Al-Jazeera&#8217;s and <span class="caps">BBC</span>&#8217;s frequencies.</p>

	<p>Would that, in your opinion, interfere with the free speech rights of <i>Americans</i>?</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Bellmore</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/27/tariq-ramadan-again/comment-page-1/#comment-161674</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Bellmore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:54:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/27/tariq-ramadan-again/#comment-161674</guid>
		<description>Scott, from many countries, (The Philippines, for instance.) non-immigrant visas are no quicker. Which is why my fiancee can&#039;t visit me as a tourist. I know, I&#039;ve talked to many applicants.

My point is simply that long delays in visa processing are not nearly so unusual as you portray them. Visa processing can be fast for a very restricted range of non-contraversial cases, (Tourist visas from western democracies, say.) Visas for &lt;i&gt;employment&lt;/i&gt; are not among them.

Abb1, keeping him out may be dubious as a policy matter, but from a First amendment standpoint, keeping him out in no way whatsoever interferes with the free speech rights of &lt;i&gt;Americans&lt;/i&gt;. I expect this ruling to be overturned.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Scott, from many countries, (The Philippines, for instance.) non-immigrant visas are no quicker. Which is why my fiancee can&#8217;t visit me as a tourist. I know, I&#8217;ve talked to many applicants.</p>

	<p>My point is simply that long delays in visa processing are not nearly so unusual as you portray them. Visa processing can be fast for a very restricted range of non-contraversial cases, (Tourist visas from western democracies, say.) Visas for <i>employment</i> are not among them.</p>

	<p>Abb1, keeping him out may be dubious as a policy matter, but from a First amendment standpoint, keeping him out in no way whatsoever interferes with the free speech rights of <i>Americans</i>. I expect this ruling to be overturned.</p>
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		<title>By: soru</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/27/tariq-ramadan-again/comment-page-1/#comment-161663</link>
		<dc:creator>soru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:50:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/27/tariq-ramadan-again/#comment-161663</guid>
		<description>While obviously the right decision, the actual  argument used seems just about as constitutionally supported as arguing he should have been banned, as otherwise the free speech of US citizens would have been impeded as they would have lost the opportunity to complain about the ban.

Which I personally have no problem with - the idea that written words in some way constrain the actions of people who claim to be believe in them is one of the commoner fallacies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>While obviously the right decision, the actual  argument used seems just about as constitutionally supported as arguing he should have been banned, as otherwise the free speech of US citizens would have been impeded as they would have lost the opportunity to complain about the ban.</p>

	<p>Which I personally have no problem with &#8211; the idea that written words in some way constrain the actions of people who claim to be believe in them is one of the commoner fallacies.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/27/tariq-ramadan-again/comment-page-1/#comment-161646</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2006 06:11:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/27/tariq-ramadan-again/#comment-161646</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;...the day they invented the telephone...&lt;/i&gt;

Yes, but in Ramadan&#039;s case, he was supposed to teach a class in the US, at the university of Notre Dame. That&#039;s hard to do over the phone. Of course I don&#039;t mean just a private conversation - athough having a private invitation does, in fact, help a lot if you&#039;re applying for a visa.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8230;the day they invented the telephone&#8230;</i></p>

	<p>Yes, but in Ramadan&#8217;s case, he was supposed to teach a class in the US, at the university of Notre Dame. That&#8217;s hard to do over the phone. Of course I don&#8217;t mean just a private conversation &#8211; athough having a private invitation does, in fact, help a lot if you&#8217;re applying for a visa.</p>
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		<title>By: Crooks and Liars &#187; Mike&#8217;s Blog Round Up</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/27/tariq-ramadan-again/comment-page-1/#comment-161641</link>
		<dc:creator>Crooks and Liars &#187; Mike&#8217;s Blog Round Up</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2006 04:50:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/27/tariq-ramadan-again/#comment-161641</guid>
		<description>[...] Crooked Timber: A federal judge has ruled that the government must act on the visa request by a Muslim scholar who has been kept out of the US for two years. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] Crooked Timber: A federal judge has ruled that the government must act on the visa request by a Muslim scholar who has been kept out of the US for two years. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Martens</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/27/tariq-ramadan-again/comment-page-1/#comment-161638</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Martens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2006 04:09:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/27/tariq-ramadan-again/#comment-161638</guid>
		<description>Brett, those are the stated normal processing times for non-immigrant visa applications.  Fiancée visa are immigrant visas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Brett, those are the stated normal processing times for non-immigrant visa applications.  Fianc&#233;e visa are immigrant visas.</p>
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		<title>By: Mr Ripley</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/27/tariq-ramadan-again/comment-page-1/#comment-161633</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr Ripley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2006 02:54:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/27/tariq-ramadan-again/#comment-161633</guid>
		<description>They&#039;ve been &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarran-Walter_Act&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;doing this&lt;/a&gt; for at least fifty-four years.  There was a bit of a thaw between 1990 and 2001, evidently.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>They&#8217;ve been <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarran-Walter_Act" rel="nofollow">doing this</a> for at least fifty-four years.  There was a bit of a thaw between 1990 and 2001, evidently.</p>
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		<title>By: minerva</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/27/tariq-ramadan-again/comment-page-1/#comment-161611</link>
		<dc:creator>minerva</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jun 2006 22:38:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/27/tariq-ramadan-again/#comment-161611</guid>
		<description>They&#039;ve been doing this for years. First it was scholars from Cuba, then Mexico (if they were leftwing). It&#039;s not only a post 9/11 thing.

I&#039;ve seen a number of visitor visas turned down even when invited by prestigious universities way before 9/11. Commies, ya know. Remember them?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>They&#8217;ve been doing this for years. First it was scholars from Cuba, then Mexico (if they were leftwing). It&#8217;s not only a post 9/11 thing.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;ve seen a number of visitor visas turned down even when invited by prestigious universities way before 9/11. Commies, ya know. Remember them?</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Bellmore</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/27/tariq-ramadan-again/comment-page-1/#comment-161605</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Bellmore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jun 2006 22:12:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/27/tariq-ramadan-again/#comment-161605</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;Why, I thought he made perfect sense: I am an American citizen who wants to hear what the alien guy has to say -&gt; you refused the alien guy a visa -&gt; you violated my right to free speach.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

I think that argument lost what little force it might have had the day they invented the telephone. By now, I can hear what an alien says on the other side of the planet better than I can hear an American on the other side of the room.

And that was very little force indeed, because the dude&#039;s absence from this country isn&#039;t stopping you from saying anything, so excluding him had precisely zero impact on any American&#039;s freedom of speech. 

&lt;i&gt;&quot;Visa applications normally take 2 days, 30 in complex cases,&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

LOL! On what planet? I&#039;m in the process of helping my finacee enter the country so that we can get married, and I assure you the INS can kill a month just getting  around to telling you that they raised the application fee after you mailed the forms, so do it all over again with a bigger check. We&#039;ve been at this since last year, and if there are no more hitches, she gets &lt;i&gt;interviewed&lt;/i&gt; in another two months.

Two days... what a fantasy that is!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8220;Why, I thought he made perfect sense: I am an American citizen who wants to hear what the alien guy has to say -> you refused the alien guy a visa -> you violated my right to free speach.&#8221;</i></p>

	<p>I think that argument lost what little force it might have had the day they invented the telephone. By now, I can hear what an alien says on the other side of the planet better than I can hear an American on the other side of the room.</p>

	<p>And that was very little force indeed, because the dude&#8217;s absence from this country isn&#8217;t stopping you from saying anything, so excluding him had precisely zero impact on any American&#8217;s freedom of speech.</p>

	<p><i>&#8220;Visa applications normally take 2 days, 30 in complex cases,&#8221;</i></p>

	<p><span class="caps">LOL</span>! On what planet? I&#8217;m in the process of helping my finacee enter the country so that we can get married, and I assure you the <span class="caps">INS</span> can kill a month just getting  around to telling you that they raised the application fee after you mailed the forms, so do it all over again with a bigger check. We&#8217;ve been at this since last year, and if there are no more hitches, she gets <i>interviewed</i> in another two months.</p>

	<p>Two days&#8230; what a fantasy that is!</p>
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		<title>By: eweininger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/27/tariq-ramadan-again/comment-page-1/#comment-161604</link>
		<dc:creator>eweininger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jun 2006 22:09:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/06/27/tariq-ramadan-again/#comment-161604</guid>
		<description>Maybe I was exercising my first amendment right not to link.  Did you ever think of that??

Actually, I was trying to draw attention to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.christianitytoday.com/bc/2006/003/17.36.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt; piece (via Daniel Drezner&#039;s site), which--in case my link fails again--is at christianitytoday.com, and which uses CT for to both praise and decry the blogosphere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Maybe I was exercising my first amendment right not to link.  Did you ever think of that??</p>

	<p>Actually, I was trying to draw attention to <a href="http://www.christianitytoday.com/bc/2006/003/17.36.html" rel="nofollow">this</a> piece (via Daniel Drezner&#8217;s site), which&#8212;in case my link fails again&#8212;is at christianitytoday.com, and which uses CT for to both praise and decry the blogosphere.</p>
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