Comments on: Mancini Faces the Music http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/05/the-music-for-mancini/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Mon, 13 Feb 2012 05:39:10 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Barry http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/05/the-music-for-mancini/comment-page-1/#comment-163388 Barry Fri, 07 Jul 2006 15:53:55 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4879#comment-163388 Harry, that probably applies to any country with a serious intelligence establishment. They've to have reams of blackmail material on current, past and prospective political leaders and civil servants. The prospect of it being a political purge might help - if the current government sees the intelligence establishment as a partisan enemy, that provides motivation. Harry, that probably applies to any country with a serious intelligence establishment. They’ve to have reams of blackmail material on current, past and prospective political leaders and civil servants. The prospect of it being a political purge might help – if the current government sees the intelligence establishment as a partisan enemy, that provides motivation.

]]> By: Henry http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/05/the-music-for-mancini/comment-page-1/#comment-163378 Henry Fri, 07 Jul 2006 13:22:41 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4879#comment-163378 Tim - I was trying to say two things in one. First, given the inquisitorial system, it's hard to judge the likelihood that charges will be pressed seriously. Second, given the dysfunctionality of the Italian legal system (which is an incredible mess) that it's hard to be sure that even if (a) there is a prosecution, and (b) there's good and convincing evidence, there will then be a conviction. All that said, the facts are looking pretty damning to me. Tim – I was trying to say two things in one. First, given the inquisitorial system, it’s hard to judge the likelihood that charges will be pressed seriously. Second, given the dysfunctionality of the Italian legal system (which is an incredible mess) that it’s hard to be sure that even if (a) there is a prosecution, and (b) there’s good and convincing evidence, there will then be a conviction. All that said, the facts are looking pretty damning to me.

]]> By: Tim Worstall http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/05/the-music-for-mancini/comment-page-1/#comment-163375 Tim Worstall Fri, 07 Jul 2006 11:35:24 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4879#comment-163375 "Should we expect some articles from you in TCS, talking about how evil it is to persecute these poor guys?" I doubt it very much. I’m all in favour of prosecuting (rather than persecuting) those suspected of crime. I just get uncomfortable when the implication seems to be that the fact of either prosecution or even investigation or charging is taken as evidence of guilt. “Should we expect some articles from you in TCS, talking about how evil it is to persecute these poor guys?”

I doubt it very much. I’m all in favour of prosecuting (rather than persecuting) those suspected of crime. I just get uncomfortable when the implication seems to be that the fact of either prosecution or even investigation or charging is taken as evidence of guilt.

]]> By: P O'Neill http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/05/the-music-for-mancini/comment-page-1/#comment-163299 P O'Neill Thu, 06 Jul 2006 14:23:12 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4879#comment-163299 The last few comments bring out one possible advantage/disadvantage (depending on how you look at it) of the Continental system of investigating magistrates. In the Republic of Ireland, the Garda did some half-assed investigation of the alleged Shannon renditions, but since they had no access to any of the principals, and made no effort to get such access, it was purely for show. By contrast, the Italian investigation is being driven by a magistrate actually making some effort and making things awkward for other parts of the State. The last few comments bring out one possible advantage/disadvantage (depending on how you look at it) of the Continental system of investigating magistrates. In the Republic of Ireland, the Garda did some half-assed investigation of the alleged Shannon renditions, but since they had no access to any of the principals, and made no effort to get such access, it was purely for show. By contrast, the Italian investigation is being driven by a magistrate actually making some effort and making things awkward for other parts of the State.

]]> By: Barry http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/05/the-music-for-mancini/comment-page-1/#comment-163287 Barry Thu, 06 Jul 2006 13:14:26 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4879#comment-163287 Not particularly, tim. But thanks for stopping by and adding that. Should we expect some articles from you in TCS, talking about how evil it is to persecute these poor guys? Not particularly, tim. But thanks for stopping by and adding that. Should we expect some articles from you in TCS, talking about how evil it is to persecute these poor guys?

]]> By: Tim Worstall http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/05/the-music-for-mancini/comment-page-1/#comment-163269 Tim Worstall Thu, 06 Jul 2006 10:54:41 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4879#comment-163269 "The path to justice in Italy is a long and tortuous one – arrest by magistrates is no guarantee of successful prosecution. " Quite. They have things called trials at which, amazingly, some people are found innocent of the charges. /snark Yes, I know what you meant, but that phrasing is a little off don’t you think? “The path to justice in Italy is a long and tortuous one – arrest by magistrates is no guarantee of successful prosecution. ”

Quite. They have things called trials at which, amazingly, some people are found innocent of the charges.

/snark

Yes, I know what you meant, but that phrasing is a little off don’t you think?

]]> By: John Quiggin http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/05/the-music-for-mancini/comment-page-1/#comment-163249 John Quiggin Thu, 06 Jul 2006 07:57:14 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4879#comment-163249 Although there's no direct link, I think this presages a drastic crash for Berlusconi. He's made it very clear that for him, it's either absolute power or nothing, and the Italian polity seems ready to give him nothing. Although there’s no direct link, I think this presages a drastic crash for Berlusconi. He’s made it very clear that for him, it’s either absolute power or nothing, and the Italian polity seems ready to give him nothing.

]]> By: a http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/05/the-music-for-mancini/comment-page-1/#comment-163232 a Thu, 06 Jul 2006 05:42:14 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4879#comment-163232 Why is everyone making fun of the Italians? Would that the U.S. and the U.K. show such moral fortitude... Why is everyone making fun of the Italians? Would that the U.S. and the U.K. show such moral fortitude…

]]> By: derrida derider http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/05/the-music-for-mancini/comment-page-1/#comment-163230 derrida derider Thu, 06 Jul 2006 05:02:41 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4879#comment-163230 Well I knew Prodi was supposed to be a socialist, but I didn't think he'd actually try and nationalise the secret service! Well I knew Prodi was supposed to be a socialist, but I didn’t think he’d actually try and nationalise the secret service!

]]> By: will u. http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/05/the-music-for-mancini/comment-page-1/#comment-163229 will u. Thu, 06 Jul 2006 03:49:13 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4879#comment-163229 As for me, I'm waiting for the classic Italian ingredient, balsamic vinegar. As for me, I’m waiting for the classic Italian ingredient, balsamic vinegar.

]]> By: staffrider http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/05/the-music-for-mancini/comment-page-1/#comment-163228 staffrider Thu, 06 Jul 2006 03:48:35 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4879#comment-163228 ... and which character does Sophia Loren play? … and which character does Sophia Loren play?

]]> By: otto http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/05/the-music-for-mancini/comment-page-1/#comment-163227 otto Thu, 06 Jul 2006 03:41:29 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4879#comment-163227 I'm waiting for the classic Italian ingredient of some people dying, one way or another, before they can be forced to testify. I’m waiting for the classic Italian ingredient of some people dying, one way or another, before they can be forced to testify.

]]> By: P O'Neill http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/05/the-music-for-mancini/comment-page-1/#comment-163226 P O'Neill Thu, 06 Jul 2006 03:31:22 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4879#comment-163226 What's missing so far is that classic Italian ingredient, the leaked transcripts of phone calls. What’s missing so far is that classic Italian ingredient, the leaked transcripts of phone calls.

]]> By: Dan Goodman http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/05/the-music-for-mancini/comment-page-1/#comment-163221 Dan Goodman Thu, 06 Jul 2006 01:19:25 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4879#comment-163221 I suspect Intelligence employees are being reminded that loyalty to the previous administration isn't quite the same thing as loyalty to the government. I suspect Intelligence employees are being reminded that loyalty to the previous administration isn’t quite the same thing as loyalty to the government.

]]> By: jerry http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/05/the-music-for-mancini/comment-page-1/#comment-163216 jerry Thu, 06 Jul 2006 00:22:23 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4879#comment-163216 Not Ledeen, sigh. That would have been too fun. Not Ledeen, sigh. That would have been too fun.

]]>