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	<title>Comments on: Weighted Student Funding</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/13/weighted-student-funding/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Crooked Timber &#187; &#187; Trading Places</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/13/weighted-student-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-166085</link>
		<dc:creator>Crooked Timber &#187; &#187; Trading Places</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jul 2006 13:36:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/13/weighted-student-funding/#comment-166085</guid>
		<description>[...] The most obvious barrier to a school choice being efficient and to it being equitable is the fact that in a choice system schools get to choose students, leading, one presumes, to a concentration of advantaged students into popular schools. Defenders of choice usually offer three solutions to this problem; lotteries (preventing schools from choosing); quotas (allowing them to choose but limiting their ability to select for advantage) and weighted student funding (allowing them to choose, but giving them incentives to choose disadvantaged children, and compensating schools which get landed with high concentrations of disadvantage). (I suggest a combination of these in my proposal at the end of School Choice and Social Justice). [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] The most obvious barrier to a school choice being efficient and to it being equitable is the fact that in a choice system schools get to choose students, leading, one presumes, to a concentration of advantaged students into popular schools. Defenders of choice usually offer three solutions to this problem; lotteries (preventing schools from choosing); quotas (allowing them to choose but limiting their ability to select for advantage) and weighted student funding (allowing them to choose, but giving them incentives to choose disadvantaged children, and compensating schools which get landed with high concentrations of disadvantage). (I suggest a combination of these in my proposal at the end of School Choice and Social Justice). [...]</p>
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		<title>By: cw</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/13/weighted-student-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-164264</link>
		<dc:creator>cw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jul 2006 22:07:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/13/weighted-student-funding/#comment-164264</guid>
		<description>&quot;...I say that local control means local funding which is bad!&quot;

How about local control but state of federal funding. Actually, with NCLB we are seeing more federal control than ever. 

Anyway, I think changing the funding system from property taxes to whatever is key to any reform.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;&#8230;I say that local control means local funding which is bad!&#8221;</p>

	<p>How about local control but state of federal funding. Actually, with <span class="caps">NCLB</span> we are seeing more federal control than ever.</p>

	<p>Anyway, I think changing the funding system from property taxes to whatever is key to any reform.</p>
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		<title>By: harry b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/13/weighted-student-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-164217</link>
		<dc:creator>harry b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jul 2006 15:52:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/13/weighted-student-funding/#comment-164217</guid>
		<description>To digamma: Nope, the unions don&#039;t like weighted funding at all. They defend their most powerful members most strongly, and their most powerful members are in the districts where they have most to lose. They also defend seniority rules in transfer (AFT is better about this, as about many things than NEA) which would be completely disrupted (ie, either gutted or rendered meaningless) by weighted funding. Unions pretty consistently oppose the kidns of measures that would be needed to ensure that true resourcing be more proportional to need,despite their publicly egalitarian rhetoric.

To aaron: in the many countries in which funding is proportional to need, there is little evidence of it creating perverse incentives for parents. So this is a problem that is theoretical, but not practical.

Has anyone bothered to look at the list of signatories? I should have been less cryptic.

Sebastian is right that the proportionality is very rough, and sam, I promise I&#039;ll get a good source for you soon.

cw -- we&#039;re looking it in funnily different ways. You say that local funding means local control which is good, and I say that local control means local funding which is bad!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>To digamma: Nope, the unions don&#8217;t like weighted funding at all. They defend their most powerful members most strongly, and their most powerful members are in the districts where they have most to lose. They also defend seniority rules in transfer (AFT is better about this, as about many things than <span class="caps">NEA</span>) which would be completely disrupted (ie, either gutted or rendered meaningless) by weighted funding. Unions pretty consistently oppose the kidns of measures that would be needed to ensure that true resourcing be more proportional to need,despite their publicly egalitarian rhetoric.</p>

	<p>To aaron: in the many countries in which funding is proportional to need, there is little evidence of it creating perverse incentives for parents. So this is a problem that is theoretical, but not practical.</p>

	<p>Has anyone bothered to look at the list of signatories? I should have been less cryptic.</p>

	<p>Sebastian is right that the proportionality is very rough, and sam, I promise I&#8217;ll get a good source for you soon.</p>

	<p>cw&#8212;we&#8217;re looking it in funnily different ways. You say that local funding means local control which is good, and I say that local control means local funding which is bad!</p>
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		<title>By: digamma</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/13/weighted-student-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-164208</link>
		<dc:creator>digamma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jul 2006 15:05:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/13/weighted-student-funding/#comment-164208</guid>
		<description>Yeah, the NEA and AFT would love this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yeah, the <span class="caps">NEA</span> and <span class="caps">AFT</span> would love this.</p>
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		<title>By: aaron</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/13/weighted-student-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-164157</link>
		<dc:creator>aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jul 2006 06:46:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/13/weighted-student-funding/#comment-164157</guid>
		<description>An excellent system to encourage people to find creative ways to make themselves qualify for free money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>An excellent system to encourage people to find creative ways to make themselves qualify for free money.</p>
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		<title>By: cw</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/13/weighted-student-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-164140</link>
		<dc:creator>cw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jul 2006 03:10:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/13/weighted-student-funding/#comment-164140</guid>
		<description>This is an excellent idea. I assume you are talking about federal and state funding, though. Becasue I think about half school funding comes from local property taxes. It&#039;s very difficult to split those up by need. People without children already don&#039;t like it that they have to pay for someone else&#039;s kid, never mind that children of &quot;irresponsible parents&quot; get more. I think the root cuase of inequity is the property tax funding of schools. On the other hand, local funding means local control, which is a good thing.

But on principal, I totally support this idea. When you talk about our school system failing, you are essentially talking about poor kids. That is where it really fails. And the cure is resorces in proportion to need.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This is an excellent idea. I assume you are talking about federal and state funding, though. Becasue I think about half school funding comes from local property taxes. It&#8217;s very difficult to split those up by need. People without children already don&#8217;t like it that they have to pay for someone else&#8217;s kid, never mind that children of &#8220;irresponsible parents&#8221; get more. I think the root cuase of inequity is the property tax funding of schools. On the other hand, local funding means local control, which is a good thing.</p>

	<p>But on principal, I totally support this idea. When you talk about our school system failing, you are essentially talking about poor kids. That is where it really fails. And the cure is resorces in proportion to need.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/13/weighted-student-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-164076</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Jul 2006 20:21:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/13/weighted-student-funding/#comment-164076</guid>
		<description>I find the proposal attractive, but would have trouble supporting it without an agreement on what the basic goal is:

1. Have outcomes for all children be the same
2. Have each child achieve as much as his ability allows
3. Bring each child, regardless of ability, up to some basic level?

or ?

Option # 2, for instance, might suggest that bright kids receive additional funding.  Options 1, and 3 suggest a switch of large proportions of money to the least likely to succeed.

Assuming , of course, that money is the issue.

Somehow it reminds me of one the less seemly outcomes of American medicine, Fierce competition among hospitals for patients likely to need extraordinary care with insurance to pay for it (one of the reasons why there sometines is substantial competition over &quot;medflights&quot;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I find the proposal attractive, but would have trouble supporting it without an agreement on what the basic goal is:</p>

	<p>1. Have outcomes for all children be the same<br />
2. Have each child achieve as much as his ability allows<br />
3. Bring each child, regardless of ability, up to some basic level?</p>

	<p>or ?</p>

	<p>Option # 2, for instance, might suggest that bright kids receive additional funding.  Options 1, and 3 suggest a switch of large proportions of money to the least likely to succeed.</p>

	<p>Assuming , of course, that money is the issue.</p>

	<p>Somehow it reminds me of one the less seemly outcomes of American medicine, Fierce competition among hospitals for patients likely to need extraordinary care with insurance to pay for it (one of the reasons why there sometines is substantial competition over &#8220;medflights&#8221;)</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian Holsclaw</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/13/weighted-student-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-164031</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian Holsclaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Jul 2006 18:50:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/13/weighted-student-funding/#comment-164031</guid>
		<description>&quot;Can you provide some evidence for “funding … in the current American system [is] roughly proportional to social advantage.”&quot;

I would tend to suspect that it is very rough since the funding schemes vary dramatically by state.  California, for instance, went from county-level funding (which tends to be more oriented to social advantage) to state-level funding a while ago.  California represents more than 1/6 of the school-aged population of the US.  

I can&#039;t comment on the specific proposal yet, as I haven&#039;t read it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Can you provide some evidence for &#8220;funding &#8230; in the current American system [is] roughly proportional to social advantage.&#8221;&#8221;</p>

	<p>I would tend to suspect that it is very rough since the funding schemes vary dramatically by state.  California, for instance, went from county-level funding (which tends to be more oriented to social advantage) to state-level funding a while ago.  California represents more than 1/6 of the school-aged population of the US.</p>

	<p>I can&#8217;t comment on the specific proposal yet, as I haven&#8217;t read it.</p>
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		<title>By: a different chris</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/13/weighted-student-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-164021</link>
		<dc:creator>a different chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Jul 2006 18:22:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/13/weighted-student-funding/#comment-164021</guid>
		<description>Sigh.  At 18 you&#039;re an adult.  You can sign all sorts of papers with no co-signatures, including ones that allow you to don a uniform and take chances with your life in a war, and if you kill somebody not in a war you go to jail and maybe die for it.

Mummy and Daddy have no legal authority or responsibility in any of those matters.

But you go to college, and suddenly their income is important.

Tax inheritances and use them for a general college fund.  What better use could society make of the money left behind by dead people?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sigh.  At 18 you&#8217;re an adult.  You can sign all sorts of papers with no co-signatures, including ones that allow you to don a uniform and take chances with your life in a war, and if you kill somebody not in a war you go to jail and maybe die for it.</p>

	<p>Mummy and Daddy have no legal authority or responsibility in any of those matters.</p>

	<p>But you go to college, and suddenly their income is important.</p>

	<p>Tax inheritances and use them for a general college fund.  What better use could society make of the money left behind by dead people?</p>
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		<title>By: harry b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/13/weighted-student-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-164004</link>
		<dc:creator>harry b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Jul 2006 17:28:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/13/weighted-student-funding/#comment-164004</guid>
		<description>Sam, yes I can but not now! I know there&#039;s a very good online chart showing all this, but I haven&#039;t time to find it at the moment -- I&#039;ll do it later.
(PS, I know you well enough to know that evidence and reason are what you&#039;re after, so there&#039;s no need to apologise for asking).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sam, yes I can but not now! I know there&#8217;s a very good online chart showing all this, but I haven&#8217;t time to find it at the moment&#8212;I&#8217;ll do it later.<br />
(PS, I know you well enough to know that evidence and reason are what you&#8217;re after, so there&#8217;s no need to apologise for asking).</p>
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		<title>By: SamChevre</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/13/weighted-student-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-163998</link>
		<dc:creator>SamChevre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Jul 2006 17:13:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/13/weighted-student-funding/#comment-163998</guid>
		<description>Harry,

Can you provide some evidence for &quot;funding ... in the current American system [is] roughly proportional to social advantage.&quot;

I see this claim frequently, but it isn&#039;t true for the school districts I am familiar with--the per-student spending is higher in the cities than in the suburban districts.

(I am not wanting to argue--I just would like to see some data; I&#039;ll happily accept any reasonable-looking data.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Harry,</p>

	<p>Can you provide some evidence for &#8220;funding &#8230; in the current American system [is] roughly proportional to social advantage.&#8221;</p>

	<p>I see this claim frequently, but it isn&#8217;t true for the school districts I am familiar with&#8212;the per-student spending is higher in the cities than in the suburban districts.</p>

	<p>(I am not wanting to argue&#8212;I just would like to see some data; I&#8217;ll happily accept any reasonable-looking data.)</p>
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		<title>By: alkali</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/13/weighted-student-funding/comment-page-1/#comment-163992</link>
		<dc:creator>alkali</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Jul 2006 17:03:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/13/weighted-student-funding/#comment-163992</guid>
		<description>Massachusetts has an education funding system that is similar in some respects to this proposal.  Under Massachusetts law, a &quot;foundation budget&quot; is set for each school district that assigns a certain amount per student plus add-ons for disability, bilingual, low-income, etc.  The state guarantees that each school district will receive at least 100% of its foundation budget amount from a combination of local taxation and state aid.  

&lt;a HREF=&quot;http://finance1.doe.mass.edu/chapter70/chapter_07_local.xls&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;As it turns out&lt;/a&gt;, however, urban districts (e.g., Boston) tend to spend exactly their foundation budget amount or just a bit more, while wealthy suburban school districts tend to spend quite a lot more.  (For example, Brookline will spend about 140% of its foundation budget amount in FY07, and most wealthy suburbs will spend at least 120%.)

That inequity has been challenged in litigation but the Massachusetts courts (a bunch of incorrigible judicial activists, don&#039;t you know) have determined that the foundation budget process satisifies the mandates of Massachusetts&#039; state constitution, and it is up to the legislature to make any further changes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Massachusetts has an education funding system that is similar in some respects to this proposal.  Under Massachusetts law, a &#8220;foundation budget&#8221; is set for each school district that assigns a certain amount per student plus add-ons for disability, bilingual, low-income, etc.  The state guarantees that each school district will receive at least 100% of its foundation budget amount from a combination of local taxation and state aid.</p>

	<p><a HREF="http://finance1.doe.mass.edu/chapter70/chapter_07_local.xls" rel="nofollow">As it turns out</a>, however, urban districts (e.g., Boston) tend to spend exactly their foundation budget amount or just a bit more, while wealthy suburban school districts tend to spend quite a lot more.  (For example, Brookline will spend about 140% of its foundation budget amount in <span class="caps">FY07</span>, and most wealthy suburbs will spend at least 120%.)</p>

	<p>That inequity has been challenged in litigation but the Massachusetts courts (a bunch of incorrigible judicial activists, don&#8217;t you know) have determined that the foundation budget process satisifies the mandates of Massachusetts&#8217; state constitution, and it is up to the legislature to make any further changes.</p>
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