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	<title>Comments on: But what if you meet a man?</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/23/but-what-if-you-meet-a-man/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: mythago</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/23/but-what-if-you-meet-a-man/comment-page-2/#comment-166008</link>
		<dc:creator>mythago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jul 2006 00:41:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4934#comment-166008</guid>
		<description>The questions themselves are not actually illegal; discrimination is, which is why it&#039;s dumb to ask questions that make it plain you&#039;re discriminating.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The questions themselves are not actually illegal; discrimination is, which is why it&#8217;s dumb to ask questions that make it plain you&#8217;re discriminating.</p>
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		<title>By: Rebecca Allen</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/23/but-what-if-you-meet-a-man/comment-page-2/#comment-166001</link>
		<dc:creator>Rebecca Allen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 23:37:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4934#comment-166001</guid>
		<description>Excuse me, but aren&#039;t questions like this ILLEGAL?  Nobody seems interested in the likelihood that the department chair broke the law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Excuse me, but aren&#8217;t questions like this <span class="caps">ILLEGAL</span>?  Nobody seems interested in the likelihood that the department chair broke the law.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Gowder</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/23/but-what-if-you-meet-a-man/comment-page-2/#comment-165935</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Gowder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 16:39:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4934#comment-165935</guid>
		<description>J. Ellenberg and crew: are you familar with the fallacy of division?  You might want to become so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>J. Ellenberg and crew: are you familar with the fallacy of division?  You might want to become so.</p>
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		<title>By: mythago</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/23/but-what-if-you-meet-a-man/comment-page-2/#comment-165890</link>
		<dc:creator>mythago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 13:34:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4934#comment-165890</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;My anecdotal data are consistent with published research for which I provided a link.&lt;/i&gt;

No, slocum, they&#039;re not. You provided a link to a business-magazine article, not to &quot;published research&quot;. That article looks at a handful of women who graduted from elite institutions in 1981. It does not compare one of those groups to similarly-situated men. It does not, actually, say &#039;these women quit because of a man&#039;--from all we know, and consistent with the rest of the article, they grew frustrated with sexist supervisors blocking their career path. Which, by the way, is consistent with &lt;i&gt;my&lt;/i&gt; anecdotal experience.

You can point to your wife all you like, slocum, and sneer that we should &quot;deal with&quot; the notion that some women leave the workforce. I&#039;m still waiting for you to explain why this justifies forcing women (only) to prove to their bosses that they should be allowed to do their normal job functions. And I wonder who really wanted Mrs. Slocum out of the full-time workforce.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>My anecdotal data are consistent with published research for which I provided a link.</i></p>

	<p>No, slocum, they&#8217;re not. You provided a link to a business-magazine article, not to &#8220;published research&#8221;. That article looks at a handful of women who graduted from elite institutions in 1981. It does not compare one of those groups to similarly-situated men. It does not, actually, say &#8216;these women quit because of a man&#8217;&#8212;from all we know, and consistent with the rest of the article, they grew frustrated with sexist supervisors blocking their career path. Which, by the way, is consistent with <i>my</i> anecdotal experience.</p>

	<p>You can point to your wife all you like, slocum, and sneer that we should &#8220;deal with&#8221; the notion that some women leave the workforce. I&#8217;m still waiting for you to explain why this justifies forcing women (only) to prove to their bosses that they should be allowed to do their normal job functions. And I wonder who really wanted Mrs. Slocum out of the full-time workforce.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/23/but-what-if-you-meet-a-man/comment-page-2/#comment-165782</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jul 2006 22:00:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4934#comment-165782</guid>
		<description>Slocum, you removed the last remaining trace of crediblity by using upper-middle to upper class women as your baseline.  And then scrubbed things clean by using an NYT &#039;anecdotes about the upper class&#039; lifestyles article as a reference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Slocum, you removed the last remaining trace of crediblity by using upper-middle to upper class women as your baseline.  And then scrubbed things clean by using an <span class="caps">NYT </span>&#8216;anecdotes about the upper class&#8217; lifestyles article as a reference.</p>
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		<title>By: Slocum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/23/but-what-if-you-meet-a-man/comment-page-2/#comment-165781</link>
		<dc:creator>Slocum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jul 2006 21:09:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4934#comment-165781</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Slocum: “Fair enough—but the patterns of the women I know are entirely consistent with those of the female Harvard MBAs (in fact, there may be some who are members of both sets). I think there are good reasons to think the patterns I’m talking about are not idiosyncratic but representative of educated women in the U.S.”&lt;/i&gt;

&lt;i&gt;Slocum, a statement like this should, IMHO, remove what little credibility you had left.&lt;/i&gt;

Ah, I love being beyond the pale--it&#039;s peaceful out here.   My anecdotal data are consistent with published research for which I provided a link.  Both point in the direction of at least as substantial percentage and probably a majority of such women opting out of full time work.

So how did I &#039;remove what little credibility I had left&#039; how?  By just making stuff up?  No -- apparently by heresy.

Look--in the U.S. in this era, many educated women choose to leave the full-time workforce.  Not because they have no other choice, not because they&#039;re forced out, not because of financial constraints, not because of social pressures -- but because they WANT TO and because they CAN.  Deal with it.

How about another link -- is there no credibility here, either?

&quot;This isn’t only about day care. Half my Times brides quit before the first baby came. In interviews, at least half of them expressed a hope never to work again. None had realistic plans to work. More importantly, when they quit, they were already alienated from their work or at least not committed to a life of work. One, a female MBA, said she could never figure out why the men at her workplace, which fired her, were so excited about making deals. “It’s only money,” she mused. Not surprisingly, even where employers offered them part-time work, they were not interested in taking it.&quot;

&quot;But elite women aren’t resisting tradition. None of the stay-at-home brides I interviewed saw the second shift as unjust; they agree that the household is women’s work. As one lawyer-bride put it in explaining her decision to quit practicing law after four years, “I had a wedding to plan.” Another, an Ivy Leaguer with a master’s degree, described it in management terms: “He’s the CEO and I’m the CFO. He sees to it that the money rolls in and I decide how to spend it.” It’s their work, and they must do it perfectly. “We’re all in here making fresh apple pie,” said one, explaining her reluctance to leave her daughters in order to be interviewed. The family CFO described her activities at home: “I take my [3-year-old] daughter to all the major museums. We go to little movement classes.”&quot;

http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&amp;name=ViewPrint&amp;articleId=10646

I know lots of these women -- they make perfectly good neighbors, but I wouldn&#039;t want to be married to one of &#039;em (and happily I&#039;m not).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Slocum: &#8220;Fair enough&#8212;but the patterns of the women I know are entirely consistent with those of the female Harvard MBAs (in fact, there may be some who are members of both sets). I think there are good reasons to think the patterns I&#8217;m talking about are not idiosyncratic but representative of educated women in the U.S.&#8221;</i></p>

	<p><i>Slocum, a statement like this should, <span class="caps">IMHO</span>, remove what little credibility you had left.</i></p>

	<p>Ah, I love being beyond the pale&#8212;it&#8217;s peaceful out here.   My anecdotal data are consistent with published research for which I provided a link.  Both point in the direction of at least as substantial percentage and probably a majority of such women opting out of full time work.</p>

	<p>So how did I &#8216;remove what little credibility I had left&#8217; how?  By just making stuff up?  No&#8212;apparently by heresy.</p>

	<p>Look&#8212;in the U.S. in this era, many educated women choose to leave the full-time workforce.  Not because they have no other choice, not because they&#8217;re forced out, not because of financial constraints, not because of social pressures&#8212;but because they <span class="caps">WANT TO</span> and because they <span class="caps">CAN</span>.  Deal with it.</p>

	<p>How about another link&#8212;is there no credibility here, either?</p>

	<p>&#8220;This isn&#8217;t only about day care. Half my Times brides quit before the first baby came. In interviews, at least half of them expressed a hope never to work again. None had realistic plans to work. More importantly, when they quit, they were already alienated from their work or at least not committed to a life of work. One, a female <span class="caps">MBA</span>, said she could never figure out why the men at her workplace, which fired her, were so excited about making deals. &#8220;It&#8217;s only money,&#8221; she mused. Not surprisingly, even where employers offered them part-time work, they were not interested in taking it.&#8221;</p>

	<p>&#8220;But elite women aren&#8217;t resisting tradition. None of the stay-at-home brides I interviewed saw the second shift as unjust; they agree that the household is women&#8217;s work. As one lawyer-bride put it in explaining her decision to quit practicing law after four years, &#8220;I had a wedding to plan.&#8221; Another, an Ivy Leaguer with a master&#8217;s degree, described it in management terms: &#8220;He&#8217;s the <span class="caps">CEO</span> and I&#8217;m the <span class="caps">CFO</span>. He sees to it that the money rolls in and I decide how to spend it.&#8221; It&#8217;s their work, and they must do it perfectly. &#8220;We&#8217;re all in here making fresh apple pie,&#8221; said one, explaining her reluctance to leave her daughters in order to be interviewed. The family <span class="caps">CFO</span> described her activities at home: &#8220;I take my [3-year-old] daughter to all the major museums. We go to little movement classes.&#8221;&#8221;</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&#038;name=ViewPrint&#038;articleId=10646" rel="nofollow">http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&#038;name=ViewPrint&#038;articleId=10646</a></p>

	<p>I know lots of these women&#8212;they make perfectly good neighbors, but I wouldn&#8217;t want to be married to one of &#8216;em (and happily I&#8217;m not).</p>
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		<title>By: Steve LaBonne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/23/but-what-if-you-meet-a-man/comment-page-2/#comment-165779</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LaBonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jul 2006 20:42:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4934#comment-165779</guid>
		<description>P.S. Let&#039;s review the situation- perhaps if you read very, very slowly, Kehoe, you might get it. We&#039;re talking about a junior faculty member who has done exactly what she was supposed to- go out and get funding for her research, including support for the grad students who are essential for doing that research. In the other corner we have her department chair, who is threatening to derail her career by arbitrarily preventing her from fulfilling one of her essential funcrtions, supervision of the very graduate students whose support &lt;i&gt;she&lt;/i&gt; has, at the cost of great exertion, secured. There is no possible rational justification for that, no matter what inane question he had in mind. Nattering about grammar in the face of the utter stupdidiy of your position only makes you look like an even bigger tool than you otherwise would.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>P.S. Let&#8217;s review the situation- perhaps if you read very, very slowly, Kehoe, you might get it. We&#8217;re talking about a junior faculty member who has done exactly what she was supposed to- go out and get funding for her research, including support for the grad students who are essential for doing that research. In the other corner we have her department chair, who is threatening to derail her career by arbitrarily preventing her from fulfilling one of her essential funcrtions, supervision of the very graduate students whose support <i>she</i> has, at the cost of great exertion, secured. There is no possible rational justification for that, no matter what inane question he had in mind. Nattering about grammar in the face of the utter stupdidiy of your position only makes you look like an even bigger tool than you otherwise would.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve LaBonne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/23/but-what-if-you-meet-a-man/comment-page-2/#comment-165777</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LaBonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jul 2006 20:35:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4934#comment-165777</guid>
		<description>Right, let&#039;s not deal with actual content, which might be inconvenient for your position.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Right, let&#8217;s not deal with actual content, which might be inconvenient for your position.</p>
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		<title>By: Aidan Kehoe</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/23/but-what-if-you-meet-a-man/comment-page-2/#comment-165776</link>
		<dc:creator>Aidan Kehoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jul 2006 20:33:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4934#comment-165776</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;Umm, rickd already explained quite eloquently why in the particular case at hand this is a VERY VERY LONG WAY from being true.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Nothing online involving words in capital letters is eloquent, no more than someone boiling over with rage in close conversation can be. And nothing in &lt;i&gt;any context&lt;/i&gt; involving a writer confusing pronouns is eloquent.

Asking about Pam&#039;s likelihood of leaving her position to move to a more prestigious university would have been entirely in order; asking about the likelihood of her leaving for personal reasons would have been entirely in order; phrasing it as this academic did was not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote><i>Umm, rickd already explained quite eloquently why in the particular case at hand this is a <span class="caps">VERY VERY LONG WAY</span> from being true.</i></blockquote></p>

	<p>Nothing online involving words in capital letters is eloquent, no more than someone boiling over with rage in close conversation can be. And nothing in <i>any context</i> involving a writer confusing pronouns is eloquent.</p>

	<p>Asking about Pam&#8217;s likelihood of leaving her position to move to a more prestigious university would have been entirely in order; asking about the likelihood of her leaving for personal reasons would have been entirely in order; phrasing it as this academic did was not.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve LaBonne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/23/but-what-if-you-meet-a-man/comment-page-2/#comment-165772</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LaBonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jul 2006 19:51:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4934#comment-165772</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Even if ‘How committed are you?’ is forbidden, ‘Just how committed is she?’ is a rational thought.&lt;/blockquote&gt; Umm, rickd already explained quite eloquently why in the particular case at hand this is a VERY VERY LONG WAY from being true. Perhaps you don&#039;t have any clue about what it takes to get two scientific research grants funded in the US these days... or perhaps you don&#039;t have any clue, period.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote>Even if &#8216;How committed are you?&#8217; is forbidden, &#8216;Just how committed is she?&#8217; is a rational thought.</blockquote> Umm, rickd already explained quite eloquently why in the particular case at hand this is a <span class="caps">VERY VERY LONG WAY</span> from being true. Perhaps you don&#8217;t have any clue about what it takes to get two scientific research grants funded in the US these days&#8230; or perhaps you don&#8217;t have any clue, period.</p>
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		<title>By: Aidan Kehoe</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/23/but-what-if-you-meet-a-man/comment-page-2/#comment-165771</link>
		<dc:creator>Aidan Kehoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jul 2006 19:45:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4934#comment-165771</guid>
		<description>Pam, #64: you say this: 

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;The dept chair should have known that it was unacceptable to ask it.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

And Slocum agrees with you; from #7: 

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;The dept chair should have known that it was unacceptable to ask [the question] &lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The point he&#039;s putting forward is distinct from that, viz.:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;[…] Even if ‘How committed are you?’ is forbidden, ‘Just how committed is she?’ is a rational thought.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

If you think that shouldn&#039;t be addressed or discussed, I have to say that although normally not a fan of Steven Pinker, I&#039;ve always liked his formulation that everything should be within the pale of legitimate academic discourse, as long as it&#039;s presented with some degree of rigour—that&#039;s the difference between a university and a madrassa.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Pam, #64: you say this:</p>

	<p><blockquote><i>The dept chair should have known that it was unacceptable to ask it.</i></blockquote></p>

	<p>And Slocum agrees with you; from #7:</p>

	<p><blockquote><i>The dept chair should have known that it was unacceptable to ask [the question] </i></blockquote></p>

	<p>The point he&#8217;s putting forward is distinct from that, viz.:</p>

	<p><blockquote><i>[&#8230;] Even if &#8216;How committed are you?&#8217; is forbidden, &#8216;Just how committed is she?&#8217; is a rational thought.</i></blockquote></p>

	<p>If you think that shouldn&#8217;t be addressed or discussed, I have to say that although normally not a fan of Steven Pinker, I&#8217;ve always liked his formulation that everything should be within the pale of legitimate academic discourse, as long as it&#8217;s presented with some degree of rigour&#8212;that&#8217;s the difference between a university and a madrassa.</p>
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		<title>By: Planeshift</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/23/but-what-if-you-meet-a-man/comment-page-2/#comment-165766</link>
		<dc:creator>Planeshift</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jul 2006 18:36:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4934#comment-165766</guid>
		<description>If otherwise intelligent and highly educated people working in a comparatively progressive institution can display such blatant sexism, then what hope is there for the vast majority of people in low paid, temporary jobs or unemployment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If otherwise intelligent and highly educated people working in a comparatively progressive institution can display such blatant sexism, then what hope is there for the vast majority of people in low paid, temporary jobs or unemployment.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/23/but-what-if-you-meet-a-man/comment-page-2/#comment-165765</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jul 2006 18:24:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4934#comment-165765</guid>
		<description>Slocum:  &quot;Fair enough—but the patterns of the women I know are entirely consistent with those of the female Harvard MBAs (in fact, there may be some who are members of both sets). I think there are good reasons to think the patterns I’m talking about are not idiosyncratic but representative of educated women in the U.S.&quot;

Slocum, a statement like this should, IMHO, remove what little credibility you had left.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Slocum:  &#8220;Fair enough&#8212;but the patterns of the women I know are entirely consistent with those of the female Harvard MBAs (in fact, there may be some who are members of both sets). I think there are good reasons to think the patterns I&#8217;m talking about are not idiosyncratic but representative of educated women in the U.S.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Slocum, a statement like this should, <span class="caps">IMHO</span>, remove what little credibility you had left.</p>
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		<title>By: Planeshift</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/23/but-what-if-you-meet-a-man/comment-page-2/#comment-165753</link>
		<dc:creator>Planeshift</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jul 2006 17:30:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4934#comment-165753</guid>
		<description>One aspect not yet covered here is the implications this example has; If otherwise intelligent and highly educated people working in a comparatively progressive institution can display such blatant sexism, then what hope is there for the vast majority of people in low paid, temporary jobs (or unemployment).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>One aspect not yet covered here is the implications this example has; If otherwise intelligent and highly educated people working in a comparatively progressive institution can display such blatant sexism, then what hope is there for the vast majority of people in low paid, temporary jobs (or unemployment).</p>
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		<title>By: Steve LaBonne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/23/but-what-if-you-meet-a-man/comment-page-2/#comment-165752</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LaBonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jul 2006 17:22:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4934#comment-165752</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;We almost dignify his question to me with all of this discussion.&lt;/blockquote&gt; I was going to say something like that but hesitated to risk further dignifying it by adding to the discussion... thanks to rickd for the breath of sanity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote>We almost dignify his question to me with all of this discussion.</blockquote> I was going to say something like that but hesitated to risk further dignifying it by adding to the discussion&#8230; thanks to rickd for the breath of sanity.</p>
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