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	<title>Comments on: Frank Zeidler is Dead</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/24/frank-zeidler-is-dead/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: matt d</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/24/frank-zeidler-is-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-166092</link>
		<dc:creator>matt d</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jul 2006 14:41:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4937#comment-166092</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know much about Chavez, but how does purging his union of members of the Communist Party disqualify him from being a socialist? That sounds perfectly consistent with the kind of socialism I admire.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t know much about Chavez, but how does purging his union of members of the Communist Party disqualify him from being a socialist? That sounds perfectly consistent with the kind of socialism I admire.</p>
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		<title>By: gray</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/24/frank-zeidler-is-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-166037</link>
		<dc:creator>gray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jul 2006 05:21:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4937#comment-166037</guid>
		<description>Well thank you all again for your contributions.

I&#039;ve kept wiki busy the last couple of days and enjoyed it  immensely. 

It has been interesting, but not surprising, how  many of them have come from groups marginalized  by the society of their day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well thank you all again for your contributions.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;ve kept wiki busy the last couple of days and enjoyed it  immensely.</p>

	<p>It has been interesting, but not surprising, how  many of them have come from groups marginalized  by the society of their day.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: nameless</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/24/frank-zeidler-is-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-166022</link>
		<dc:creator>nameless</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jul 2006 03:08:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4937#comment-166022</guid>
		<description>Astrongmaybe--
I don&#039;t think it&#039;s splitting hairs. Here&#039;s my definition, very ad hoc, as applied to Chavez: Nationalization of the means of production is not enough; Venezuela did that back in the 1960s, and wholly reactionary regimes can do it and have done it. Distribution of that wealth through social programs is a further step in the left direction, but also not necessarily socialist. To the extent that HC has split open the old crony labor federation that is a positive step, but so did Gen. Lazaro Cardenas and it took 60 years to sever the ties between the CTM and the PRI. I can&#039;t get over my suspicion of paratroopers, golpistas and lideres, no matter how deeply red they may appear; without a movement capable of building popular power what was gained can be lost too quickly and too easily.  

To quote an authentic Socialist, without caveats:

I do not want you to follow me or anyone else; if you are looking for a Moses to lead you out of this capitalist wilderness, you will stay right where you are. I would not lead you into the promised land if I could, because if I led you in, some one else would lead you out. You must use your heads as well as your hands, and get yourself out of your present condition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_V._Debs</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Astrongmaybe&#8212;I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s splitting hairs. Here&#8217;s my definition, very ad hoc, as applied to Chavez: Nationalization of the means of production is not enough; Venezuela did that back in the 1960s, and wholly reactionary regimes can do it and have done it. Distribution of that wealth through social programs is a further step in the left direction, but also not necessarily socialist. To the extent that HC has split open the old crony labor federation that is a positive step, but so did Gen. Lazaro Cardenas and it took 60 years to sever the ties between the <span class="caps">CTM</span> and the <span class="caps">PRI</span>. I can&#8217;t get over my suspicion of paratroopers, golpistas and lideres, no matter how deeply red they may appear; without a movement capable of building popular power what was gained can be lost too quickly and too easily.</p>

	<p>To quote an authentic Socialist, without caveats:</p>

	<p>I do not want you to follow me or anyone else; if you are looking for a Moses to lead you out of this capitalist wilderness, you will stay right where you are. I would not lead you into the promised land if I could, because if I led you in, some one else would lead you out. You must use your heads as well as your hands, and get yourself out of your present condition.</p>

	<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_V._Debs" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_V._Debs</a></p>
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		<title>By: astrongmaybe</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/24/frank-zeidler-is-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-165928</link>
		<dc:creator>astrongmaybe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 16:04:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4937#comment-165928</guid>
		<description>nameless - at the risk of hairsplittery, what criteria would you use? Nationalization of the means of production, distrib. and exchange? Internal party democracy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>nameless &#8211; at the risk of hairsplittery, what criteria would you use? Nationalization of the means of production, distrib. and exchange? Internal party democracy?</p>
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		<title>By: Urinated State of America</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/24/frank-zeidler-is-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-165917</link>
		<dc:creator>Urinated State of America</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 14:54:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4937#comment-165917</guid>
		<description>Well, Edward Bellamy, the clergyman who wrote the pledge of allegience (without the &#039;under God&#039; part) was a Christian Socialist.

John Dewey, the shaper of the student-centered American educational philosophy.

More obscure, but Max Schactman (sp?), Michael Harrington, Irving Howe, and Sidney Hook. (Soem might argue with Hook, but he considered himself a democratic socialist &#039;til the day he died). All with impeccable anti-communist credentials.

Orwell, though not American, is always a good one to throw in the face of wingnuts.

James Connolly (of the Irish Easter rising) worked for the IWW (the &#039;wobblies&#039;), as the IWW could give him a paying job, before returning to Ireland.

Jack London, as folks have mentioned above, is more problematic. In my mind, there&#039;s a good chance that, given his racialist views, he would have done an Oswald Mosley had he lived longer.

More at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:American_socialists</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, Edward Bellamy, the clergyman who wrote the pledge of allegience (without the &#8216;under God&#8217; part) was a Christian Socialist.</p>

	<p>John Dewey, the shaper of the student-centered American educational philosophy.</p>

	<p>More obscure, but Max Schactman (sp?), Michael Harrington, Irving Howe, and Sidney Hook. (Soem might argue with Hook, but he considered himself a democratic socialist &#8216;til the day he died). All with impeccable anti-communist credentials.</p>

	<p>Orwell, though not American, is always a good one to throw in the face of wingnuts.</p>

	<p>James Connolly (of the Irish Easter rising) worked for the <span class="caps">IWW </span>(the &#8216;wobblies&#8217;), as the <span class="caps">IWW</span> could give him a paying job, before returning to Ireland.</p>

	<p>Jack London, as folks have mentioned above, is more problematic. In my mind, there&#8217;s a good chance that, given his racialist views, he would have done an Oswald Mosley had he lived longer.</p>

	<p>More at:<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:American_socialists" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:American_socialists</a></p>
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		<title>By: nameless</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/24/frank-zeidler-is-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-165912</link>
		<dc:creator>nameless</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 14:34:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4937#comment-165912</guid>
		<description>Venezuelan, my apologies to those who know how to spell.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Venezuelan, my apologies to those who know how to spell.</p>
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		<title>By: nameless</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/24/frank-zeidler-is-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-165911</link>
		<dc:creator>nameless</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 14:33:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4937#comment-165911</guid>
		<description>Let me subtract a few names from the list: LaGuardia (who ran as a Republican, remember) and the Roosevelts were reformers, but never Socialists, with or without the capitalization. Chavez likewise: while he headed a popular movement/union with social democratic ideals, he was no socialist (he purged the CPUSA supporters from the union in the 1970s). Huey Long was closer to a fascist than a socialist; he did not allow any popular movements that he was not the head of to function and liked being escorted by state troopers armed with machine guns. Draw your own comparisons to Venezualan liders of today.

And let me add a few who were not socialists for their entire career, but either began or ended that way: Martin Luther King (at the end), Walter Reuther (at the beginning), Sidney Hillman (ditto) and A.J. Muste (likewise). And, as already mentioned, Randolph and Rustin.

By the way, what are the caveats to Debs?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Let me subtract a few names from the list: LaGuardia (who ran as a Republican, remember) and the Roosevelts were reformers, but never Socialists, with or without the capitalization. Chavez likewise: while he headed a popular movement/union with social democratic ideals, he was no socialist (he purged the <span class="caps">CPUSA</span> supporters from the union in the 1970s). Huey Long was closer to a fascist than a socialist; he did not allow any popular movements that he was not the head of to function and liked being escorted by state troopers armed with machine guns. Draw your own comparisons to Venezualan liders of today.</p>

	<p>And let me add a few who were not socialists for their entire career, but either began or ended that way: Martin Luther King (at the end), Walter Reuther (at the beginning), Sidney Hillman (ditto) and A.J. Muste (likewise). And, as already mentioned, Randolph and Rustin.</p>

	<p>By the way, what are the caveats to Debs?</p>
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		<title>By: SamChevre</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/24/frank-zeidler-is-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-165868</link>
		<dc:creator>SamChevre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 12:15:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4937#comment-165868</guid>
		<description>Gray,

Known for literary work in a sense--he was a journalist, but a very political and influential one--would be Lincoln Steffens.  (And &quot;The Autobiography of Lincoln Steffens&quot; is an awesome book if you are interested in unintended consequences.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Gray,</p>

	<p>Known for literary work in a sense&#8212;he was a journalist, but a very political and influential one&#8212;would be Lincoln Steffens.  (And &#8220;The Autobiography of Lincoln Steffens&#8221; is an awesome book if you are interested in unintended consequences.)</p>
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		<title>By: mcd</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/24/frank-zeidler-is-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-165807</link>
		<dc:creator>mcd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 04:05:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4937#comment-165807</guid>
		<description>Albert Einstein

King C Gillette  (founder of Gillette company)

Horace Liveright  (publisher)

Edward Bellamy  (&quot;Looking Backward&quot;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Albert Einstein</p>

	<p>King C Gillette  (founder of Gillette company)</p>

	<p>Horace Liveright  (publisher)</p>

	<p>Edward Bellamy  (&#8220;Looking Backward&#8221;)</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: will u.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/24/frank-zeidler-is-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-165801</link>
		<dc:creator>will u.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 02:35:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4937#comment-165801</guid>
		<description>A public park in my hometown was until recently called Socialist Park, I believe because the Socialist Party donated the land.  At some point it was renamed to the banal Willow Glen, which might as well be the name of a subdivision.  

Partially due to German influence, the town had a socialist mayor and was the home of Socialist Presidential candidate Darlington Hoopes.  The surrounding area is still quite red, although that means something altogether different in contemporary politics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>A public park in my hometown was until recently called Socialist Park, I believe because the Socialist Party donated the land.  At some point it was renamed to the banal Willow Glen, which might as well be the name of a subdivision.</p>

	<p>Partially due to German influence, the town had a socialist mayor and was the home of Socialist Presidential candidate Darlington Hoopes.  The surrounding area is still quite red, although that means something altogether different in contemporary politics.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Beryl</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/24/frank-zeidler-is-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-165795</link>
		<dc:creator>Beryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 00:53:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4937#comment-165795</guid>
		<description>A propos Milwaukee and socialism in America...
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A01E6D91431F930A3575AC0A9669C8B63</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>A propos Milwaukee and socialism in America&#8230;<br />
<a href="http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A01E6D91431F930A3575AC0A9669C8B63" rel="nofollow">http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A01E6D91431F930A3575AC0A9669C8B63</a></p>
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		<title>By: Beryl</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/24/frank-zeidler-is-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-165794</link>
		<dc:creator>Beryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 00:40:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4937#comment-165794</guid>
		<description>To continue the trend... Eugene Debs (with a few caveats).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>To continue the trend&#8230; Eugene Debs (with a few caveats).</p>
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		<title>By: astrongmaybe</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/24/frank-zeidler-is-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-165790</link>
		<dc:creator>astrongmaybe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 00:09:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4937#comment-165790</guid>
		<description>Cesar Chavez</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Cesar Chavez</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: harry b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/24/frank-zeidler-is-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-165789</link>
		<dc:creator>harry b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jul 2006 23:10:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4937#comment-165789</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s my near namesake, Harry Bridges, a great union leader. Fiorello LaGuardia (after whom the airport is named). Jane Addams. Harry Hay. Many of the leaders of the early civil rights movement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>There&#8217;s my near namesake, Harry Bridges, a great union leader. Fiorello LaGuardia (after whom the airport is named). Jane Addams. Harry Hay. Many of the leaders of the early civil rights movement.</p>
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		<title>By: gray</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/24/frank-zeidler-is-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-165787</link>
		<dc:creator>gray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jul 2006 22:24:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4937#comment-165787</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your replies.

If I could clarify my request, while I am aware of,  and appreciate  the Roosevelts and those of a similar national stature (although Helen Keller was news to me) my particular interest is those  who managed to  make a contribution or attained a profile outside of literary or academic endeavour.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks for your replies.</p>

	<p>If I could clarify my request, while I am aware of,  and appreciate  the Roosevelts and those of a similar national stature (although Helen Keller was news to me) my particular interest is those  who managed to  make a contribution or attained a profile outside of literary or academic endeavour.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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