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	<title>Comments on: The Nobel Prize Winner as Neglected Genius</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/25/the-nobel-prize-winner-as-neglected-genius/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/25/the-nobel-prize-winner-as-neglected-genius/comment-page-1/#comment-166481</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Jul 2006 15:04:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4942#comment-166481</guid>
		<description>J. Harlan Bretz&#039;s 1920s theory that the &quot;channeled scablands&quot; of E Washington were created by water action is another example of a rejected true theory.

This link is sympathetic to Bretz&#039;s skeptics:

http://www.geo.ucalgary.ca/~macrae/t_origins/bretz_re.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>J. Harlan Bretz&#8217;s 1920s theory that the &#8220;channeled scablands&#8221; of E Washington were created by water action is another example of a rejected true theory.</p>

	<p>This link is sympathetic to Bretz&#8217;s skeptics:</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.geo.ucalgary.ca/~macrae/t_origins/bretz_re.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.geo.ucalgary.ca/~macrae/t_origins/bretz_re.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/25/the-nobel-prize-winner-as-neglected-genius/comment-page-1/#comment-166476</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Jul 2006 14:57:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4942#comment-166476</guid>
		<description>J. Harlan Bretz&#039;s 1920s theory that the &quot;channeled scablands&quot; of E Washington were created by water action is another example of a rejected true theory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>J. Harlan Bretz&#8217;s 1920s theory that the &#8220;channeled scablands&#8221; of E Washington were created by water action is another example of a rejected true theory.</p>
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		<title>By: S. A. Jordan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/25/the-nobel-prize-winner-as-neglected-genius/comment-page-1/#comment-166413</link>
		<dc:creator>S. A. Jordan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Jul 2006 11:06:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4942#comment-166413</guid>
		<description>My apologies for the poor formatting of the list items above (each beginning with &quot;the theory of...&quot;).  I&#039;d kept the source&#039;s HTML tags (UL and LI), which displayed properly in the preview box but were stripped out by the posting software.  I should have text-formatted the items, instead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>My apologies for the poor formatting of the list items above (each beginning with &#8220;the theory of&#8230;&#8221;).  I&#8217;d kept the source&#8217;s <span class="caps">HTML</span> tags (UL and LI), which displayed properly in the preview box but were stripped out by the posting software.  I should have text-formatted the items, instead.</p>
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		<title>By: S. A. Jordan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/25/the-nobel-prize-winner-as-neglected-genius/comment-page-1/#comment-166409</link>
		<dc:creator>S. A. Jordan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Jul 2006 10:55:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4942#comment-166409</guid>
		<description>Also see &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_consensus#Scientific_consensus_and_the_scientific_minority&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the Wiki on &quot;scientific consensus&quot;&lt;/a&gt;:&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;Several examples of this are present in the relatively recent history of science. For example:the theory of &lt;a href=&quot;/wiki/Continental_drift&quot; title=&quot;Continental drift&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;continental drift&lt;/a&gt; proposed by &lt;a href=&quot;/wiki/Alfred_Wegener&quot; title=&quot;Alfred Wegener&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Alfred Wegener&lt;/a&gt; and supported by &lt;a href=&quot;/wiki/Alexander_Du_Toit&quot; title=&quot;Alexander Du Toit&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Alexander Du Toit&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;/wiki/Arthur_Holmes&quot; title=&quot;Arthur Holmes&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Arthur Holmes&lt;/a&gt; but soundly rejected by most geologists until indisputable evidence and an acceptable mechanism was presented after 50 years of rejection.
the theory of &lt;a href=&quot;/wiki/Symbiogenesis&quot; title=&quot;Symbiogenesis&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;symbiogenesis&lt;/a&gt; presented by &lt;a href=&quot;/wiki/Lynn_Margulis&quot; title=&quot;Lynn Margulis&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Lynn Margulis&lt;/a&gt; and initially rejected by biologists but now generally accepted.
the theory of &lt;a href=&quot;/wiki/Punctuated_equilibria&quot; title=&quot;Punctuated equilibria&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;punctuated equilibria&lt;/a&gt; proposed by &lt;a href=&quot;/wiki/Stephen_Jay_Gould&quot; title=&quot;Stephen Jay Gould&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Stephen Jay Gould&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;/wiki/Niles_Eldredge&quot; title=&quot;Niles Eldredge&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Niles Eldredge&lt;/a&gt; which is still debated but becoming more accepted in &lt;a href=&quot;/wiki/Evolutionary_theory&quot; title=&quot;Evolutionary theory&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;evolutionary theory&lt;/a&gt;.
the theory of &lt;a href=&quot;/wiki/Prion&quot; title=&quot;Prion&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;prions&lt;/a&gt; &#8212; proteinaceous infectious particles causing &lt;a href=&quot;/wiki/Transmissible_spongiform_encephalopathy&quot; title=&quot;Transmissible spongiform encephalopathy&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;transmissible spongiform encephalopathy&lt;/a&gt; diseases &#8212; proposed by &lt;a href=&quot;/wiki/Stanley_B._Prusiner&quot; title=&quot;Stanley B. Prusiner&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Stanley B. Prusiner&lt;/a&gt; and at first rejected (because pathogenicity was believed to depend on &lt;a href=&quot;/wiki/Nucleic_acid&quot; title=&quot;Nucleic acid&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;nucleic acids&lt;/a&gt;), now widely accepted due to accumulating evidence.
the theory of &lt;a href=&quot;/wiki/Heliobacter_pylori&quot; title=&quot;Heliobacter pylori&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;heliobacter pylori&lt;/a&gt; as the cause of stomach ulcers. This theory was first postulated in 1982 by &lt;a href=&quot;/wiki/Barry_Marshall&quot; title=&quot;Barry Marshall&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Barry Marshall&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;/wiki/Robin_Warren&quot; title=&quot;Robin Warren&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Robin Warren&lt;/a&gt;. However, it was widely rejected by the medical community believing that no bacterium could survive for long in the acidic environment of the stomach. Marshall demonstrated his findings by drinking a brew of the bacteria and consequently developing ulcers. In 2005, Warren and Marshall were awarded the &lt;a href=&quot;/wiki/Nobel_Prize_in_Medicine&quot; title=&quot;Nobel Prize in Medicine&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Nobel Prize in Medicine&lt;/a&gt; for their work on &lt;/i&gt;&lt;i&gt;H. pylori&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Comment on the last item:  &lt;a href=&quot;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;helicobacter pylori&lt;/a&gt; was actually observed (though not so named) a century earlier.&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicobacter_pylori#History&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;In 1875, German scientists found spiral bacteria in the lining of the human stomach; the bacteria could not be grown in culture and the results were eventually forgotten.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Also see <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_consensus#Scientific_consensus_and_the_scientific_minority" rel="nofollow">the Wiki on &#8220;scientific consensus&#8221;</a>:<blockquote><i>Several examples of this are present in the relatively recent history of science. For example:the theory of <a href="/wiki/Continental_drift" title="Continental drift" rel="nofollow">continental drift</a> proposed by <a href="/wiki/Alfred_Wegener" title="Alfred Wegener" rel="nofollow">Alfred Wegener</a> and supported by <a href="/wiki/Alexander_Du_Toit" title="Alexander Du Toit" rel="nofollow">Alexander Du Toit</a> and <a href="/wiki/Arthur_Holmes" title="Arthur Holmes" rel="nofollow">Arthur Holmes</a> but soundly rejected by most geologists until indisputable evidence and an acceptable mechanism was presented after 50 years of rejection.<br />
the theory of <a href="/wiki/Symbiogenesis" title="Symbiogenesis" rel="nofollow">symbiogenesis</a> presented by <a href="/wiki/Lynn_Margulis" title="Lynn Margulis" rel="nofollow">Lynn Margulis</a> and initially rejected by biologists but now generally accepted.<br />
the theory of <a href="/wiki/Punctuated_equilibria" title="Punctuated equilibria" rel="nofollow">punctuated equilibria</a> proposed by <a href="/wiki/Stephen_Jay_Gould" title="Stephen Jay Gould" rel="nofollow">Stephen Jay Gould</a> and <a href="/wiki/Niles_Eldredge" title="Niles Eldredge" rel="nofollow">Niles Eldredge</a> which is still debated but becoming more accepted in <a href="/wiki/Evolutionary_theory" title="Evolutionary theory" rel="nofollow">evolutionary theory</a>.<br />
the theory of <a href="/wiki/Prion" title="Prion" rel="nofollow">prions</a> &mdash; proteinaceous infectious particles causing <a href="/wiki/Transmissible_spongiform_encephalopathy" title="Transmissible spongiform encephalopathy" rel="nofollow">transmissible spongiform encephalopathy</a> diseases &mdash; proposed by <a href="/wiki/Stanley_B._Prusiner" title="Stanley B. Prusiner" rel="nofollow">Stanley B. Prusiner</a> and at first rejected (because pathogenicity was believed to depend on <a href="/wiki/Nucleic_acid" title="Nucleic acid" rel="nofollow">nucleic acids</a>), now widely accepted due to accumulating evidence.<br />
the theory of <a href="/wiki/Heliobacter_pylori" title="Heliobacter pylori" rel="nofollow">heliobacter pylori</a> as the cause of stomach ulcers. This theory was first postulated in 1982 by <a href="/wiki/Barry_Marshall" title="Barry Marshall" rel="nofollow">Barry Marshall</a> and <a href="/wiki/Robin_Warren" title="Robin Warren" rel="nofollow">Robin Warren</a>. However, it was widely rejected by the medical community believing that no bacterium could survive for long in the acidic environment of the stomach. Marshall demonstrated his findings by drinking a brew of the bacteria and consequently developing ulcers. In 2005, Warren and Marshall were awarded the <a href="/wiki/Nobel_Prize_in_Medicine" title="Nobel Prize in Medicine" rel="nofollow">Nobel Prize in Medicine</a> for their work on </i><i>H. pylori</i></blockquote><br />
Comment on the last item:  <a href="" rel="nofollow">helicobacter pylori</a> was actually observed (though not so named) a century earlier.<blockquote><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicobacter_pylori#History" rel="nofollow"><i>In 1875, German scientists found spiral bacteria in the lining of the human stomach; the bacteria could not be grown in culture and the results were eventually forgotten.</i></a></blockquote></p>
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		<title>By: S. A. Jordan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/25/the-nobel-prize-winner-as-neglected-genius/comment-page-1/#comment-166349</link>
		<dc:creator>S. A. Jordan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Jul 2006 20:39:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4942#comment-166349</guid>
		<description>Cosma writes: &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;&quot;...the neglected genius whose ideas are rejected with incomprehension by the scientific establishment during his life, because they are simply Too Far Ahead Of His Time to be grasped by lesser mortals, only for the scientific community to rediscover these insights decades later. This sort of thing... simply doesn’t happen all that often in real life....&quot;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Not &quot;all that often&quot;, perhaps, but too often.

In astronomy, the proponents of the &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliocentric&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;heliocentric model&lt;/a&gt; come to mind -- not only Copernicus and Galileo among others during the Renaissance, but also Aristarchus of Samos about two millennia earlier.

In the biological sciences, take for examples the neglected genetic studies of &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Mendel&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Gregor Mendel&lt;/a&gt;, and the ridiculed contagion/hygiene ideas of the heartbroken &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semmelweis&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Ignaz Semmelweis&lt;/a&gt;, both in the 19th century.

Granted, these were too early to be &quot;Nobel Prize Winners&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Cosma writes: <blockquote><i>&#8220;&#8230;the neglected genius whose ideas are rejected with incomprehension by the scientific establishment during his life, because they are simply Too Far Ahead Of His Time to be grasped by lesser mortals, only for the scientific community to rediscover these insights decades later. This sort of thing&#8230; simply doesn&#8217;t happen all that often in real life&#8230;.&#8221;</i></blockquote></p>

	<p>Not &#8220;all that often&#8221;, perhaps, but too often.</p>

	<p>In astronomy, the proponents of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliocentric" rel="nofollow">heliocentric model</a> come to mind&#8212;not only Copernicus and Galileo among others during the Renaissance, but also Aristarchus of Samos about two millennia earlier.</p>

	<p>In the biological sciences, take for examples the neglected genetic studies of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Mendel" rel="nofollow">Gregor Mendel</a>, and the ridiculed contagion/hygiene ideas of the heartbroken <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semmelweis" rel="nofollow">Ignaz Semmelweis</a>, both in the 19th century.</p>

	<p>Granted, these were too early to be &#8220;Nobel Prize Winners&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: bob</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/25/the-nobel-prize-winner-as-neglected-genius/comment-page-1/#comment-166285</link>
		<dc:creator>bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Jul 2006 15:55:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4942#comment-166285</guid>
		<description>The &lt;a href=&quot;http://darwin.nap.edu/books/0309044421/html/183.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; article on Onsager, by H. C. Longuet-Higgins and Michael Fisher, &lt;i&gt;Biographical Memoirs of the National Academy of Sciences&lt;/i&gt; vol. 60 (1991), pp. 183-232&lt;/a&gt;, is well worth reading. By the way, for Onsager&#039;s opinion of Prigogine, see pp. 219-220:
&lt;b&gt;About a certain Belgian theoretical chemist: &quot;He&#039;s a bright fellow. But there are a lot of folks, some quite talented, who arm themselves with methods and then go hunting for vulnerable problems; but to accept a problem on its own terms and then forge your own weapon—now that&#039;s real class!&quot; (Experts, beware!)&lt;/b&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The <a href="http://darwin.nap.edu/books/0309044421/html/183.html" rel="nofollow"> article on Onsager, by H. C. Longuet-Higgins and Michael Fisher, <i>Biographical Memoirs of the National Academy of Sciences</i> vol. 60 (1991), pp. 183-232</a>, is well worth reading. By the way, for Onsager&#8217;s opinion of Prigogine, see pp. 219-220:<br />
<b>About a certain Belgian theoretical chemist: &#8220;He&#8217;s a bright fellow. But there are a lot of folks, some quite talented, who arm themselves with methods and then go hunting for vulnerable problems; but to accept a problem on its own terms and then forge your own weapon&#8212;now that&#8217;s real class!&#8221; (Experts, beware!)</b></p>
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		<title>By: tzs</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/25/the-nobel-prize-winner-as-neglected-genius/comment-page-1/#comment-166117</link>
		<dc:creator>tzs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jul 2006 16:39:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4942#comment-166117</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s also WHERE stuff gets published and WHAT language it gets published in.  A heck of a lot of stuff stayed on the Soviet side of the border for a lot longer than one would have wished because it wasn&#039;t translated.  

Wasn&#039;t there a mathematician who took delight in publishing his discoveries in the most obscure mathematical journals he could find? 

And then there&#039;s how stuff gets written.  Witten&#039;s articles are a delight to read; undoubtedly one reason why his ideas in superstring theory spread so quickly at the beginning of the field.  Then there are other scientists (I&#039;m sure we all have our own examples to fume about) who link obscure and dense thickets of turgid prose with indecipherable mathematics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>There&#8217;s also <span class="caps">WHERE</span> stuff gets published and <span class="caps">WHAT</span> language it gets published in.  A heck of a lot of stuff stayed on the Soviet side of the border for a lot longer than one would have wished because it wasn&#8217;t translated.</p>

	<p>Wasn&#8217;t there a mathematician who took delight in publishing his discoveries in the most obscure mathematical journals he could find?</p>

	<p>And then there&#8217;s how stuff gets written.  Witten&#8217;s articles are a delight to read; undoubtedly one reason why his ideas in superstring theory spread so quickly at the beginning of the field.  Then there are other scientists (I&#8217;m sure we all have our own examples to fume about) who link obscure and dense thickets of turgid prose with indecipherable mathematics.</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/25/the-nobel-prize-winner-as-neglected-genius/comment-page-1/#comment-166089</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jul 2006 14:05:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4942#comment-166089</guid>
		<description>I remember it as calculus per se.

This is not a very good point, and I should probably drop it unless someone comes along to support me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I remember it as calculus per se.</p>

	<p>This is not a very good point, and I should probably drop it unless someone comes along to support me.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Erwin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/25/the-nobel-prize-winner-as-neglected-genius/comment-page-1/#comment-166076</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Erwin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jul 2006 12:42:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4942#comment-166076</guid>
		<description>john emerson said: &lt;i&gt;I do remember reading that calculus was resisted at Oxford and Cambridge as late as 1800, but I can’t document that.&lt;/i&gt;

Might you be thinking of 18th Century British opposition to Continental calculus, based on the fact that the latter gave at least some credit to Leibniz and used his notation instead of Newton&#039;s?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>john emerson said: <i>I do remember reading that calculus was resisted at Oxford and Cambridge as late as 1800, but I can&#8217;t document that.</i></p>

	<p>Might you be thinking of 18th Century British opposition to Continental calculus, based on the fact that the latter gave at least some credit to Leibniz and used his notation instead of Newton&#8217;s?</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/25/the-nobel-prize-winner-as-neglected-genius/comment-page-1/#comment-166066</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jul 2006 11:34:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4942#comment-166066</guid>
		<description>16: Lorenz&#039;s work was 60 years later, though. The 60-year lag is what I meant. Prigogine gave a prominent place to and the KAM theorem and  the Russian school, but apparently they were pretty isolated. Prigogine&#039;s argument was that science was very resistant and slow to recognize the wider consequences of thermodynamics, the three-body problem, etc.  

Very little of Prigogine&#039;s book was about his own original work. It was mostly a history of thermodynamics and related questions. 

I do remember reading that calculus was resisted at Oxford and Cambridge as late as 1800, but I can&#039;t document that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>16: Lorenz&#8217;s work was 60 years later, though. The 60-year lag is what I meant. Prigogine gave a prominent place to and the <span class="caps">KAM</span> theorem and  the Russian school, but apparently they were pretty isolated. Prigogine&#8217;s argument was that science was very resistant and slow to recognize the wider consequences of thermodynamics, the three-body problem, etc.</p>

	<p>Very little of Prigogine&#8217;s book was about his own original work. It was mostly a history of thermodynamics and related questions.</p>

	<p>I do remember reading that calculus was resisted at Oxford and Cambridge as late as 1800, but I can&#8217;t document that.</p>
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		<title>By: vkri</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/25/the-nobel-prize-winner-as-neglected-genius/comment-page-1/#comment-166045</link>
		<dc:creator>vkri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jul 2006 06:46:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4942#comment-166045</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t completely agree that Poincare&#039;s work on chaos was neglected in the Physics community. Historically, the many failures of classical mechanics took centrestage in physics for the early decades of the 20th century, so work on classical mechanical problems at that time seems correspondingly neglected. From what I gather, his ideas were of tremendous interest to the Russian school, and this culminated in the KAM theorem. His work also had an impact on Edward Lorenz in Meteorology. 

  Poincare&#039;s case is quite different from Onsager. Poincare was known to be a very clear and good expositor of his work. On the other hand, this was not true of Onsager. Also, I dont think Onsager ever worried about the lack of recognition that his ideas received. It is also true that for most people, poorly written stuff gets ignored more often than not. I think though, that for people like Onsager, a lot more benefit of the doubt would be given even today, (in my opinion deservedly so) since a person with the depth of insight he had, is hard to find.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t completely agree that Poincare&#8217;s work on chaos was neglected in the Physics community. Historically, the many failures of classical mechanics took centrestage in physics for the early decades of the 20th century, so work on classical mechanical problems at that time seems correspondingly neglected. From what I gather, his ideas were of tremendous interest to the Russian school, and this culminated in the <span class="caps">KAM</span> theorem. His work also had an impact on Edward Lorenz in Meteorology.</p>

	<p>Poincare&#8217;s case is quite different from Onsager. Poincare was known to be a very clear and good expositor of his work. On the other hand, this was not true of Onsager. Also, I dont think Onsager ever worried about the lack of recognition that his ideas received. It is also true that for most people, poorly written stuff gets ignored more often than not. I think though, that for people like Onsager, a lot more benefit of the doubt would be given even today, (in my opinion deservedly so) since a person with the depth of insight he had, is hard to find.</p>
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		<title>By: Maynard Handley</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/25/the-nobel-prize-winner-as-neglected-genius/comment-page-1/#comment-166034</link>
		<dc:creator>Maynard Handley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jul 2006 04:43:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4942#comment-166034</guid>
		<description>I must admit to being somewhat unsympathetic to Onsager in this case. The fact of the matter is that the other scientists in the world don&#039;t have years of free time to slowly work their way through incomprehensible papers in the hope that maybe, just maybe, they are worthwhile. You, the author of the paper, have a responsibility to make your ideas comprehensible. If the first method you choose to explain them fails, then you listen to what people say about where they lost all track of understanding and write a new paper --- with NEW explanations, not the same explanations that failed last time only renumbered.

Science has a policy, and I think most scientists would agree that it is a fine policy, that if you come up with some fantastic idea, but refuse to publish it, then you&#039;re not going to get much sympathy, in your lifetime or afterwards, when this effect/theorem/discovery is named after someone else who also wins the Nobel Prize.  Science does *not* have a similar *stated* policy when it comes to comprehensibility. There is, to some extent, an informal such policy, in that if no-one can understand you they&#039;ll just ignore you, but it&#039;s not something that is drilled into young scientists; that it is YOUR responsibility to make your ideas clear to others, not their responsibility to try to figure out what you are talking about. As science grows ever larger and ever more complex, I think it is time for all scientists to be much more explicit and much more ruthless on this point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I must admit to being somewhat unsympathetic to Onsager in this case. The fact of the matter is that the other scientists in the world don&#8217;t have years of free time to slowly work their way through incomprehensible papers in the hope that maybe, just maybe, they are worthwhile. You, the author of the paper, have a responsibility to make your ideas comprehensible. If the first method you choose to explain them fails, then you listen to what people say about where they lost all track of understanding and write a new paper&#8212;- with <span class="caps">NEW</span> explanations, not the same explanations that failed last time only renumbered.</p>

	<p>Science has a policy, and I think most scientists would agree that it is a fine policy, that if you come up with some fantastic idea, but refuse to publish it, then you&#8217;re not going to get much sympathy, in your lifetime or afterwards, when this effect/theorem/discovery is named after someone else who also wins the Nobel Prize.  Science does <strong>not</strong> have a similar <strong>stated</strong> policy when it comes to comprehensibility. There is, to some extent, an informal such policy, in that if no-one can understand you they&#8217;ll just ignore you, but it&#8217;s not something that is drilled into young scientists; that it is <span class="caps">YOUR</span> responsibility to make your ideas clear to others, not their responsibility to try to figure out what you are talking about. As science grows ever larger and ever more complex, I think it is time for all scientists to be much more explicit and much more ruthless on this point.</p>
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		<title>By: cosma</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/25/the-nobel-prize-winner-as-neglected-genius/comment-page-1/#comment-166033</link>
		<dc:creator>cosma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jul 2006 04:27:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4942#comment-166033</guid>
		<description>Let me echo Walt&#039;s remark about mathematicians&#039; opinions of calculus.  It&#039;s true that there was a long interval between Newton and Leibniz&#039;s invention of calculus, and the work of Cauchy, Weierstrass &amp;co. which produced &quot;analysis&quot;, during which the foundations of calculus did not meet modern standards of rigor.  But, prior to their work, next to no mathematics met those standards.  Vanishingly few mathematicians back then thought calculus was just a hack.   The people who had problems were the philosophers: Bishop Berkeley thought it was a fallacious hack, Hegel and Marx had some exceedingly strange ideas (expounded &#8212; &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.geocities.com/athens/4824/rev-g1.htm#marx&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;I am not making this up&lt;/a&gt; &#8212; in a little book called Marx Demystifies Calculus, &lt;a href=&quot;http://webusers.physics.umn.edu/~marquit/catalog.html#demystifies&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;apparently&lt;/a&gt; still in print), etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Let me echo Walt&#8217;s remark about mathematicians&#8217; opinions of calculus.  It&#8217;s true that there was a long interval between Newton and Leibniz&#8217;s invention of calculus, and the work of Cauchy, Weierstrass &#038;co. which produced &#8220;analysis&#8221;, during which the foundations of calculus did not meet modern standards of rigor.  But, prior to their work, next to no mathematics met those standards.  Vanishingly few mathematicians back then thought calculus was just a hack.   The people who had problems were the philosophers: Bishop Berkeley thought it was a fallacious hack, Hegel and Marx had some exceedingly strange ideas (expounded &mdash; <a href="http://www.geocities.com/athens/4824/rev-g1.htm#marx" rel="nofollow">I am not making this up</a> &mdash; in a little book called Marx Demystifies Calculus, <a href="http://webusers.physics.umn.edu/~marquit/catalog.html#demystifies" rel="nofollow">apparently</a> still in print), etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/25/the-nobel-prize-winner-as-neglected-genius/comment-page-1/#comment-166031</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jul 2006 04:11:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4942#comment-166031</guid>
		<description>Actually, that&#039;s an odd thing about mad scientists - they never seem to have scientific demands, like &quot;Unless every single paper in nature for the next ten years cites at least two of my papers, I&#039;ll vaporize New York!&quot; or &quot;I want the physics Nobel every year for the next twenty!&quot; or, I suppose, something to do with parking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Actually, that&#8217;s an odd thing about mad scientists &#8211; they never seem to have scientific demands, like &#8220;Unless every single paper in nature for the next ten years cites at least two of my papers, I&#8217;ll vaporize New York!&#8221; or &#8220;I want the physics Nobel every year for the next twenty!&#8221; or, I suppose, something to do with parking.</p>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/25/the-nobel-prize-winner-as-neglected-genius/comment-page-1/#comment-166029</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jul 2006 03:55:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4942#comment-166029</guid>
		<description>I think Prigogne and Mandelbrot are distinct cases.  It&#039;s clear to an outsider what Mandelbrot did: he applied already-existing mathematics to real-world problems.  Professional pure mathematicians might downplay the significance of this, but that&#039;s what makes them pure mathematicians.  If someone used the Thue-Siegel-Roth Theorem tomorrow to cure cancer, pure mathematicians would probably downplay that too.  (I don&#039;t know what applied mathematicians think of Mandelbrot; I&#039;d be curious to hear what.)  But it&#039;s clear from reading Mandelbrot that he didn&#039;t invent Cantor sets, or Sierpinski gaskets, or Hausdorff dimension, or Julia sets, but that he did suggest applying these to the coastline of Britain.

Prigogine is much murkier, since its harder for an outsider to separate out his ideas from others.  He also proposed a specific narrow research program that has not been particularly successful.  There is also reputedly a cult of personality around him that as far as I know does not exist for Mandelbrot.

I think it&#039;s true that the significance of Poincare&#039;s work was not fully appreciated by physicists at the time, and that the main conclusion they drew was just that the n-body problem was not analytically solvable.  It was certainly understood by mathematicians in the relevant fields, though, and there was much subsequent work.  From their point of view, I can see how irritating it would be for people to tell them they didn&#039;t know something they knew for years.  At the same time, mathematicians are in general terrible popularizers, so it&#039;s not surprising that they had never managed to get the message out.

Mathematicians never thought calculus itself was an engineer&#039;s kludge.  The modern era of mathematics practically begins with calculus, and the use of intuitive but non-rigorous arguments didn&#039;t really end until the turn of the century, at which point calculus was already on a firm footing.  There were certain further developments, such as the Heaviside calculus and Green&#039;s functions that mathematicians thought were kludges, but that&#039;s a lot more specialized.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think Prigogne and Mandelbrot are distinct cases.  It&#8217;s clear to an outsider what Mandelbrot did: he applied already-existing mathematics to real-world problems.  Professional pure mathematicians might downplay the significance of this, but that&#8217;s what makes them pure mathematicians.  If someone used the Thue-Siegel-Roth Theorem tomorrow to cure cancer, pure mathematicians would probably downplay that too.  (I don&#8217;t know what applied mathematicians think of Mandelbrot; I&#8217;d be curious to hear what.)  But it&#8217;s clear from reading Mandelbrot that he didn&#8217;t invent Cantor sets, or Sierpinski gaskets, or Hausdorff dimension, or Julia sets, but that he did suggest applying these to the coastline of Britain.</p>

	<p>Prigogine is much murkier, since its harder for an outsider to separate out his ideas from others.  He also proposed a specific narrow research program that has not been particularly successful.  There is also reputedly a cult of personality around him that as far as I know does not exist for Mandelbrot.</p>

	<p>I think it&#8217;s true that the significance of Poincare&#8217;s work was not fully appreciated by physicists at the time, and that the main conclusion they drew was just that the n-body problem was not analytically solvable.  It was certainly understood by mathematicians in the relevant fields, though, and there was much subsequent work.  From their point of view, I can see how irritating it would be for people to tell them they didn&#8217;t know something they knew for years.  At the same time, mathematicians are in general terrible popularizers, so it&#8217;s not surprising that they had never managed to get the message out.</p>

	<p>Mathematicians never thought calculus itself was an engineer&#8217;s kludge.  The modern era of mathematics practically begins with calculus, and the use of intuitive but non-rigorous arguments didn&#8217;t really end until the turn of the century, at which point calculus was already on a firm footing.  There were certain further developments, such as the Heaviside calculus and Green&#8217;s functions that mathematicians thought were kludges, but that&#8217;s a lot more specialized.</p>
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