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	<title>Comments on: Why the Iraq Fiasco Means We Must Support My Politics</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/03/why-the-iraq-fiasco-means-we-must-support-my-politics/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: trialsanderrors</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/03/why-the-iraq-fiasco-means-we-must-support-my-politics/comment-page-2/#comment-167618</link>
		<dc:creator>trialsanderrors</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Aug 2006 07:56:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4986#comment-167618</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Hello. This is the tabarrok 0.9 econbot beta release. Markets good. Governments bad. I am a human entity, capable of expressing intelligent thoughts. Trust me. Hello. This is the tabarrok 0.9 econbot beta release.&lt;/i&gt;

You need to work on the bugs there, Henry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Hello. This is the tabarrok 0.9 econbot beta release. Markets good. Governments bad. I am a human entity, capable of expressing intelligent thoughts. Trust me. Hello. This is the tabarrok 0.9 econbot beta release.</i></p>

	<p>You need to work on the bugs there, Henry.</p>
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		<title>By: Anarch</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/03/why-the-iraq-fiasco-means-we-must-support-my-politics/comment-page-2/#comment-167603</link>
		<dc:creator>Anarch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Aug 2006 03:35:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4986#comment-167603</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Thus, the looting issue was looked at the release of animal spirits by the Rumsfeldians, whereas looking at it now, it is easy to see that it was the first phase of the insurgency, destroying valuable infrastructure, securing arms, and probing the enemy to see how it responds to chaos.&lt;/i&gt;

Looking at it &lt;b&gt;now&lt;/b&gt;?  Hell, I and many others correctly identified it at the time; IMO, it took a seriously skewed perspective, or more likely in Rumsfeld&#039;s case (IMO again) a willingness to indulge in wishful mendacity, to see it as anything else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Thus, the looting issue was looked at the release of animal spirits by the Rumsfeldians, whereas looking at it now, it is easy to see that it was the first phase of the insurgency, destroying valuable infrastructure, securing arms, and probing the enemy to see how it responds to chaos.</i></p>

	<p>Looking at it <b>now</b>?  Hell, I and many others correctly identified it at the time; <span class="caps">IMO</span>, it took a seriously skewed perspective, or more likely in Rumsfeld&#8217;s case (IMO again) a willingness to indulge in wishful mendacity, to see it as anything else.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/03/why-the-iraq-fiasco-means-we-must-support-my-politics/comment-page-2/#comment-167560</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Aug 2006 01:14:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4986#comment-167560</guid>
		<description>&quot;If the USPS is doing so great – as many say above – then why does it need a legal monopoly on the delivery of 1st class mail?&quot;

The legal monopoly is needed if uniform pricing is to be maintained. Otherwise entrants could offer competition for low-cost service, such as delivery between points in a given city, and leave USPS with the high-cost services. You may not like uniform pricing, but that&#039;s a separate issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;If the <span class="caps">USPS</span> is doing so great &#8211; as many say above &#8211; then why does it need a legal monopoly on the delivery of 1st class mail?&#8221;</p>

	<p>The legal monopoly is needed if uniform pricing is to be maintained. Otherwise entrants could offer competition for low-cost service, such as delivery between points in a given city, and leave <span class="caps">USPS</span> with the high-cost services. You may not like uniform pricing, but that&#8217;s a separate issue.</p>
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		<title>By: T J Olson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/03/why-the-iraq-fiasco-means-we-must-support-my-politics/comment-page-2/#comment-167516</link>
		<dc:creator>T J Olson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Aug 2006 10:01:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4986#comment-167516</guid>
		<description>If the USPS is doing so great - as many say above - then why does it need a legal monopoly on the delivery of 1st class mail? 

It&#039;s had this, as authorized by Congress, since the 1860s, when a libertarian lawyer challenged the Postal Service, Lysander Spooner. To us, this is admission enought that the &quot;Service is a failure.&quot;

But I find Tabarok&#039;s an analogy of postal deliver under peace-time conditions with war uncompelling. Business units are not the equal of the military or defense - especially since the latter function is often rarely used. Because of this, is it not comparable to any continuing business. Today in the world, defense is most often a function of nation-state nationalism. It is the latter that libertarians fail to find any good in. Classical liberal philosopher David Conway effectively answers this charge.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If the <span class="caps">USPS</span> is doing so great &#8211; as many say above &#8211; then why does it need a legal monopoly on the delivery of 1st class mail?</p>

	<p>It&#8217;s had this, as authorized by Congress, since the 1860s, when a libertarian lawyer challenged the Postal Service, Lysander Spooner. To us, this is admission enought that the &#8220;Service is a failure.&#8221;</p>

	<p>But I find Tabarok&#8217;s an analogy of postal deliver under peace-time conditions with war uncompelling. Business units are not the equal of the military or defense &#8211; especially since the latter function is often rarely used. Because of this, is it not comparable to any continuing business. Today in the world, defense is most often a function of nation-state nationalism. It is the latter that libertarians fail to find any good in. Classical liberal philosopher David Conway effectively answers this charge.</p>
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		<title>By: Gene O'Grady</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/03/why-the-iraq-fiasco-means-we-must-support-my-politics/comment-page-2/#comment-167479</link>
		<dc:creator>Gene O'Grady</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 23:49:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4986#comment-167479</guid>
		<description>Dear 48,  Not to get snippy over nothing, I&#039;m well aware of the educational, engineering, religious interaction starting between the US and Meiji Japan.  It is, after all, the reason my undergraduate college in Massachusetts had Japanese graduates in 1877, while not letting Catholics and Jews in for another thirty years or so.

But two things happened in the 20&#039;s -- Tokyo Earthquake (good), refusal to exempt Japan from racist provisions of immigration laws (real bad).  So I don&#039;t think there was quite the steady trend you envisage.  Hence the training of academics and others as Japan experts (I can think a few others nobody would have heard of), and the reliance on West Coast populations (including some under-the-covers Japanese Americans) for language and cultural expertise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Dear 48,  Not to get snippy over nothing, I&#8217;m well aware of the educational, engineering, religious interaction starting between the US and Meiji Japan.  It is, after all, the reason my undergraduate college in Massachusetts had Japanese graduates in 1877, while not letting Catholics and Jews in for another thirty years or so.</p>

	<p>But two things happened in the 20&#8217;s&#8212;Tokyo Earthquake (good), refusal to exempt Japan from racist provisions of immigration laws (real bad).  So I don&#8217;t think there was quite the steady trend you envisage.  Hence the training of academics and others as Japan experts (I can think a few others nobody would have heard of), and the reliance on West Coast populations (including some under-the-covers Japanese Americans) for language and cultural expertise.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/03/why-the-iraq-fiasco-means-we-must-support-my-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-167446</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 20:48:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4986#comment-167446</guid>
		<description>Steve Labonne,

Re: the link you posted, if I forced you to pay for my services, would your use of them constitute an inconsistency?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Steve Labonne,</p>

	<p>Re: the link you posted, if I forced you to pay for my services, would your use of them constitute an inconsistency?</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/03/why-the-iraq-fiasco-means-we-must-support-my-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-167423</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 17:51:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4986#comment-167423</guid>
		<description>Bush is in no way libertarian and has zero connection with libertarianism.  He has increased the size of the government and aggregated power at the top level.  He very nearly stands for everything I stand against.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Bush is in no way libertarian and has zero connection with libertarianism.  He has increased the size of the government and aggregated power at the top level.  He very nearly stands for everything I stand against.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/03/why-the-iraq-fiasco-means-we-must-support-my-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-167420</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 17:37:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4986#comment-167420</guid>
		<description>47, After the Meiji restoration (1867) literally thousands of Western scientists, educators, engineers and military men were brought to Japan to train, educate and modernize that country. That&#039;s why Japan went from a medieval feudalist society to one of the most advanced nations on the earth within 100 years. Because of this there were thousands of westerners fluent in Japanese, and thus there was no Japanese language problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>47, After the Meiji restoration (1867) literally thousands of Western scientists, educators, engineers and military men were brought to Japan to train, educate and modernize that country. That&#8217;s why Japan went from a medieval feudalist society to one of the most advanced nations on the earth within 100 years. Because of this there were thousands of westerners fluent in Japanese, and thus there was no Japanese language problem.</p>
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		<title>By: Gene O'Grady</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/03/why-the-iraq-fiasco-means-we-must-support-my-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-167412</link>
		<dc:creator>Gene O'Grady</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 17:19:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4986#comment-167412</guid>
		<description>In answer to Sara (#41), I believe the answer to the Japanese language problem in WW II is twofold.  One, there were exceptions made to the policy of interment on the grounds of military usefulness.  Two, since this was a total national commitment by a government that was not fundamentally anti-intellectual, they simply took the available educated people in language, science, whatever, and trained them in Japanese and other needed languages.  The one name I know is, strangely enough, Hugh Lloyd-Jones, Regius Professor Emeritus of Greek at Oxford, and sometime Conservative intellectual.

Since the most important triumph of intelligence (and since Japan was in important respects thoroughly beaten by a very skilled American (and Allied) war effort in 1942-44 the atomic bomb, whatever one thinks of Truman&#039;s decision, is irrelevant) was the planning for the battle of Midway in June 1942 the Navy had obviously been thinking about this for some time.  There may have been some use made of suddenly acceptable Asian populations on the West Coast (Chinese and Filipino) who were bilingual, but I think it was basically recognized as a relevant skill and maintained through the 30&#039;s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>In answer to Sara (#41), I believe the answer to the Japanese language problem in <span class="caps">WW II</span> is twofold.  One, there were exceptions made to the policy of interment on the grounds of military usefulness.  Two, since this was a total national commitment by a government that was not fundamentally anti-intellectual, they simply took the available educated people in language, science, whatever, and trained them in Japanese and other needed languages.  The one name I know is, strangely enough, Hugh Lloyd-Jones, Regius Professor Emeritus of Greek at Oxford, and sometime Conservative intellectual.</p>

	<p>Since the most important triumph of intelligence (and since Japan was in important respects thoroughly beaten by a very skilled American (and Allied) war effort in 1942-44 the atomic bomb, whatever one thinks of Truman&#8217;s decision, is irrelevant) was the planning for the battle of Midway in June 1942 the Navy had obviously been thinking about this for some time.  There may have been some use made of suddenly acceptable Asian populations on the West Coast (Chinese and Filipino) who were bilingual, but I think it was basically recognized as a relevant skill and maintained through the 30&#8217;s.</p>
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		<title>By: RWP</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/03/why-the-iraq-fiasco-means-we-must-support-my-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-167410</link>
		<dc:creator>RWP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 17:13:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4986#comment-167410</guid>
		<description>I wonder if one can realistically compare Iraq to any other war and say it is worse or better. By what metrics should you measure it? To say this is a war run more poorly or better than another is a conceit of language. To my mind Alex has hit the nail on the head. The objectively perfect war is not to have a war at all. 
I think the quote that hits it, &quot;War is hell.&quot; - Not only the combat part; its all bad all the time. Am I wrong?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I wonder if one can realistically compare Iraq to any other war and say it is worse or better. By what metrics should you measure it? To say this is a war run more poorly or better than another is a conceit of language. To my mind Alex has hit the nail on the head. The objectively perfect war is not to have a war at all.<br />
I think the quote that hits it, &#8220;War is hell.&#8221; &#8211; Not only the combat part; its all bad all the time. Am I wrong?</p>
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		<title>By: jult52</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/03/why-the-iraq-fiasco-means-we-must-support-my-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-167391</link>
		<dc:creator>jult52</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 14:45:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4986#comment-167391</guid>
		<description>I find it interesting that the US postal service has been defended here.  I agree that the USPS provides low cost service pretty well but it has also completely missed out on the revolution in communications that has happened in the last quarter century.  So the USPS is a success in very limited terms.  (To be clear, I&#039;m not necessarily blaming the staff at USPS for this failure; I realize they are operating under regulatory restraints.)  

Is the conduct of warfare analogous to the physical delivery of mailed items.  Very doubtful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I find it interesting that the US postal service has been defended here.  I agree that the <span class="caps">USPS</span> provides low cost service pretty well but it has also completely missed out on the revolution in communications that has happened in the last quarter century.  So the <span class="caps">USPS</span> is a success in very limited terms.  (To be clear, I&#8217;m not necessarily blaming the staff at <span class="caps">USPS</span> for this failure; I realize they are operating under regulatory restraints.)</p>

	<p>Is the conduct of warfare analogous to the physical delivery of mailed items.  Very doubtful.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/03/why-the-iraq-fiasco-means-we-must-support-my-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-167383</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 13:10:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4986#comment-167383</guid>
		<description>Brooksfore, a very important point.  The US government has become more responsive to those who can cough up the campaign donations.

Alex, what do we expect from a blog post?  Well, not a perr-reviewed, footnoted paper, but not BS, as well.  The specific corruption and incompetancy of *this* administration can not be kept out of any honest description of this war.  Neither, to be fair, can the fact that the Bush era has demonstrated that &#039;libertarianism&#039; is, in fact, highly correlated with the Republican Party.  I would say &#039;post-9/11 era&#039;, but that correlation was apparent from the 1990&#039;s; it just lost the last excuses during the Bush administration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Brooksfore, a very important point.  The US government has become more responsive to those who can cough up the campaign donations.</p>

	<p>Alex, what do we expect from a blog post?  Well, not a perr-reviewed, footnoted paper, but not BS, as well.  The specific corruption and incompetancy of <strong>this</strong> administration can not be kept out of any honest description of this war.  Neither, to be fair, can the fact that the Bush era has demonstrated that &#8216;libertarianism&#8217; is, in fact, highly correlated with the Republican Party.  I would say &#8216;post-9/11 era&#8217;, but that correlation was apparent from the 1990&#8217;s; it just lost the last excuses during the Bush administration.</p>
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		<title>By: brooksfoe</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/03/why-the-iraq-fiasco-means-we-must-support-my-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-167368</link>
		<dc:creator>brooksfoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 06:48:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4986#comment-167368</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;But what incentives does our government have to prevent abuse of their citizens?&lt;/i&gt;

Alex makes an important point here. But again, this is not an inevitable structural problem in government as such. It is an argument for a powerful institional bias towards government operations in other countries listening and responding to the needs and opinions of other countries&#039; citizens and institutions. One reason why US efforts in both Afghanistan and Iraq have gone (relatively) better with Zalmay Khalilzad in charge is that he is someone with an instinctive understanding of consensus and of the region he&#039;s dealing with.

I think Alex is pointing towards an important point: there is a bizarre incongruity in the fact that those on the conservative and libertarian end of the spectrum so often point to the inevitable perverse or unintended consequences of government in every field EXCEPT warfare (where in fact perverse and unintended consequences are most inevitable and most severe). However, this critique misses many of the factors that have made US government performance in Iraq much worse than government performance often is. Many of these factors - the subordination of intelligence, research, and analysis to political and public-relations goals; the intense politicization of what should be non-political organs of expertise - can be generalized throughout contemporary US government. And they&#039;re part of the reason why the government is functioning so poorly at the moment.


To get back to the &quot;incentives&quot; point: one of the reasons why US government is so unresponsive to the interests of Iraqi citizens is that it&#039;s SO responsive to the interests (= political sentiments) of US citizens. This is true of US foreign aid as well. When these organizations are very responsive to US voters in the short term, they become less responsive to the foreigners they&#039;re supposed to help, in the long term.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>But what incentives does our government have to prevent abuse of their citizens?</i></p>

	<p>Alex makes an important point here. But again, this is not an inevitable structural problem in government as such. It is an argument for a powerful institional bias towards government operations in other countries listening and responding to the needs and opinions of other countries&#8217; citizens and institutions. One reason why US efforts in both Afghanistan and Iraq have gone (relatively) better with Zalmay Khalilzad in charge is that he is someone with an instinctive understanding of consensus and of the region he&#8217;s dealing with.</p>

	<p>I think Alex is pointing towards an important point: there is a bizarre incongruity in the fact that those on the conservative and libertarian end of the spectrum so often point to the inevitable perverse or unintended consequences of government in every field <span class="caps">EXCEPT</span> warfare (where in fact perverse and unintended consequences are most inevitable and most severe). However, this critique misses many of the factors that have made US government performance in Iraq much worse than government performance often is. Many of these factors &#8211; the subordination of intelligence, research, and analysis to political and public-relations goals; the intense politicization of what should be non-political organs of expertise &#8211; can be generalized throughout contemporary US government. And they&#8217;re part of the reason why the government is functioning so poorly at the moment.</p>


	<p>To get back to the &#8220;incentives&#8221; point: one of the reasons why US government is so unresponsive to the interests of Iraqi citizens is that it&#8217;s SO responsive to the interests (= political sentiments) of US citizens. This is true of US foreign aid as well. When these organizations are very responsive to US voters in the short term, they become less responsive to the foreigners they&#8217;re supposed to help, in the long term.</p>
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		<title>By: derrida derider</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/03/why-the-iraq-fiasco-means-we-must-support-my-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-167365</link>
		<dc:creator>derrida derider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 04:14:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4986#comment-167365</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;An incompetently conducted war does not a general case against government make.&lt;/i&gt;

No, but it does a general case against wars of choice make. If you know in advance that you&#039;ll mess up any war you go, then best only go to war when you have to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>An incompetently conducted war does not a general case against government make.</i></p>

	<p>No, but it does a general case against wars of choice make. If you know in advance that you&#8217;ll mess up any war you go, then best only go to war when you have to.</p>
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		<title>By: sara</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/03/why-the-iraq-fiasco-means-we-must-support-my-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-167362</link>
		<dc:creator>sara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 03:05:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4986#comment-167362</guid>
		<description>On edit: the exception must, I suppose, be the Pacific War in World War II, with Japan, but someone with much more WWII experience must tell me how the language-intelligence problem was surmounted, especially since we thoughtfully sent our Japanese-Americans to internment camps. That the problem was solved with atomic bombs is the usual answer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>On edit: the exception must, I suppose, be the Pacific War in World War II, with Japan, but someone with much more <span class="caps">WWII</span> experience must tell me how the language-intelligence problem was surmounted, especially since we thoughtfully sent our Japanese-Americans to internment camps. That the problem was solved with atomic bombs is the usual answer.</p>
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