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	<title>Comments on: A hack writes</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/08/a-hack-writes/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Weininger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/08/a-hack-writes/comment-page-1/#comment-167975</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Weininger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Aug 2006 00:52:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/08/a-hack-writes/#comment-167975</guid>
		<description>one should point out, wrt the whole &quot;hard drugs are inherently harmful so we should make them maximally inconvenient to get&quot; thing, that:

1. Matt&#039;s post referred to the wrecked lives of *abusers* of these drugs. That doesn&#039;t imply that an increase in use must &lt;i&gt;per se&lt;/i&gt; translate to an increase in abuse. It is often tacitly assumed that for heroin etc. using implies abusing, but this is disputed by e.g. Jacob Sullum in _Saying Yes_.

2. the various regulations that make smoking more inconvenient may well be intended by their proponents to achieve the paternalistic purpose of reducing the harm to smokers themselves, but they are rarely justified by that alone. Even quite obvious and noxious paternalists of the Stanton Glantz type find it necessary to lean heavily on the externality argument, i.e. the claim that the key benefit involved is the reduction of the alleged harm done by secondhand smoke to innocent, unconsenting nonsmokers. No such argument can be advanced in favor of jailing hard drug users.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>one should point out, wrt the whole &#8220;hard drugs are inherently harmful so we should make them maximally inconvenient to get&#8221; thing, that:</p>

	<p>1. Matt&#8217;s post referred to the wrecked lives of <strong>abusers</strong> of these drugs. That doesn&#8217;t imply that an increase in use must <i>per se</i> translate to an increase in abuse. It is often tacitly assumed that for heroin etc. using implies abusing, but this is disputed by e.g. Jacob Sullum in <em>Saying Yes</em>.</p>

	<p>2. the various regulations that make smoking more inconvenient may well be intended by their proponents to achieve the paternalistic purpose of reducing the harm to smokers themselves, but they are rarely justified by that alone. Even quite obvious and noxious paternalists of the Stanton Glantz type find it necessary to lean heavily on the externality argument, i.e. the claim that the key benefit involved is the reduction of the alleged harm done by secondhand smoke to innocent, unconsenting nonsmokers. No such argument can be advanced in favor of jailing hard drug users.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve LaBonne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/08/a-hack-writes/comment-page-1/#comment-167906</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LaBonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Aug 2006 18:35:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/08/a-hack-writes/#comment-167906</guid>
		<description>There don’t seem to be many drug users who don’t drink,and I have the distinct impression that many of them started getting drunk at around the same age when they began smoking pot, if not younger. So by the “logic” of the “gateway” argument keeping pot illegal isn’t enough; we need to return to the days of Prohibition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>There don&#8217;t seem to be many drug users who don&#8217;t drink,and I have the distinct impression that many of them started getting drunk at around the same age when they began smoking pot, if not younger. So by the &#8220;logic&#8221; of the &#8220;gateway&#8221; argument keeping pot illegal isn&#8217;t enough; we need to return to the days of Prohibition.</p>
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		<title>By: glenn</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/08/a-hack-writes/comment-page-1/#comment-167885</link>
		<dc:creator>glenn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Aug 2006 13:59:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/08/a-hack-writes/#comment-167885</guid>
		<description>Matt - Sorry. I just lapsed again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Matt &#8211; Sorry. I just lapsed again.</p>
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		<title>By: glenn</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/08/a-hack-writes/comment-page-1/#comment-167883</link>
		<dc:creator>glenn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Aug 2006 13:59:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/08/a-hack-writes/#comment-167883</guid>
		<description>Matt - for the record, I know of know self-respecting Methodist disturbed by liquor stores, especially those that have periodic 2 for 1 specials. I speak as a lapsed and recovering Methodist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Matt &#8211; for the record, I know of know self-respecting Methodist disturbed by liquor stores, especially those that have periodic 2 for 1 specials. I speak as a lapsed and recovering Methodist.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Fradera</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/08/a-hack-writes/comment-page-1/#comment-167872</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Fradera</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Aug 2006 12:50:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/08/a-hack-writes/#comment-167872</guid>
		<description>As I understand, cannabis itself does so. I&#039;m finding it difficult to get a clear link, but here goes: 
&lt;a href=&quot;http://tinyurl.com/rehpa&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;This&lt;/a&gt; abstract (I can&#039;t get to the article) implies as such: &quot;Several substances besides tobacco are inhaled....Regular marijuana use can lead to extensive airway injury and alterations in the structure and function of alveolar macrophages, potentially predisposing to pulmonary infection and respiratory cancer&quot;. 

&lt;a href=&quot;http://tinyurl.com/pet9g&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;This&lt;/a&gt; abstract says it more clearly, but is older.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://tinyurl.com/obdmn&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here&#039;s&lt;/a&gt; a study that deals more explicitly with the with/without tobacco issue. the MS and MTS (marijuana only and marijuana-tobacco groups) both show more DNA damage to lung cells than the Non-smokers (whereas, perhaps interestingly, smoking cocaine in the absence of tobacco does not have the effect).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>As I understand, cannabis itself does so. I&#8217;m finding it difficult to get a clear link, but here goes:<br />
<a href="http://tinyurl.com/rehpa" rel="nofollow">This</a> abstract (I can&#8217;t get to the article) implies as such: &#8220;Several substances besides tobacco are inhaled&#8230;.Regular marijuana use can lead to extensive airway injury and alterations in the structure and function of alveolar macrophages, potentially predisposing to pulmonary infection and respiratory cancer&#8221;.</p>

	<p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/pet9g" rel="nofollow">This</a> abstract says it more clearly, but is older.</p>

	<p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/obdmn" rel="nofollow">Here&#8217;s</a> a study that deals more explicitly with the with/without tobacco issue. the MS and <span class="caps">MTS </span>(marijuana only and marijuana-tobacco groups) both show more <span class="caps">DNA</span> damage to lung cells than the Non-smokers (whereas, perhaps interestingly, smoking cocaine in the absence of tobacco does not have the effect).</p>
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		<title>By: SamChevre</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/08/a-hack-writes/comment-page-1/#comment-167870</link>
		<dc:creator>SamChevre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Aug 2006 12:40:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/08/a-hack-writes/#comment-167870</guid>
		<description>Ray,

An opinion without specific knowledge, but I would expect that (smoked) cannabis harms the lungs, in much the same way that most other substances, smoked, harm the lungs.  I make this guess because tobacco&#039;s harm to the lungs is not unique; people who work in heavy, direct smoke frequently have lung damage very similar to that of smokers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ray,</p>

	<p>An opinion without specific knowledge, but I would expect that (smoked) cannabis harms the lungs, in much the same way that most other substances, smoked, harm the lungs.  I make this guess because tobacco&#8217;s harm to the lungs is not unique; people who work in heavy, direct smoke frequently have lung damage very similar to that of smokers.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/08/a-hack-writes/comment-page-1/#comment-167867</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Aug 2006 12:30:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/08/a-hack-writes/#comment-167867</guid>
		<description>(serious question) does the cannabis itself harm the lungs, or is it damage due to joints which combine cannabis and tobacco?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>(serious question) does the cannabis itself harm the lungs, or is it damage due to joints which combine cannabis and tobacco?</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Fradera</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/08/a-hack-writes/comment-page-1/#comment-167855</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Fradera</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Aug 2006 10:34:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/08/a-hack-writes/#comment-167855</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Cannibis isn’t harmful in its illegal form&lt;/i&gt;

Actually, it is harmful. It harms your lungs, and although there is an ongoing debate about the degree and severity of this, it is implicated in the emergence of psychotic illness. See e.g. &lt;a href=&quot;http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/184/2/110&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Cannibis isn&#8217;t harmful in its illegal form</i></p>

	<p>Actually, it is harmful. It harms your lungs, and although there is an ongoing debate about the degree and severity of this, it is implicated in the emergence of psychotic illness. See e.g. <a href="http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/184/2/110" rel="nofollow">here</a></p>
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		<title>By: nick s</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/08/a-hack-writes/comment-page-1/#comment-167840</link>
		<dc:creator>nick s</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Aug 2006 07:43:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/08/a-hack-writes/#comment-167840</guid>
		<description>We need to define &#039;gateway&#039; here. 

Consider the practice in many US states, where beer can be sold in, say, petrol stations, and wine in supermarkets, but anything stronger than  20% a.b.v. is the sole purview of somewhat grotty state-regulated booze emporia. That appears to be done, at least to some extent, because of the assumption that Bud Light is a gateway drug to 18-year-old Macallan, in the sense that if the two were sold in the same place, the drinker of Anheuser-Busch pisswater might gravitate to a mellow Speyside malt. Which would be a bad thing.

Then there is &#039;gateway&#039; in the sense that simply drinking Anheuser-Busch pisswater would naturally lead the drinker to seek out 18-y-o Macallan. Would that it were so, but I suspect otherwise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>We need to define &#8216;gateway&#8217; here.</p>

	<p>Consider the practice in many US states, where beer can be sold in, say, petrol stations, and wine in supermarkets, but anything stronger than  20% a.b.v. is the sole purview of somewhat grotty state-regulated booze emporia. That appears to be done, at least to some extent, because of the assumption that Bud Light is a gateway drug to 18-year-old Macallan, in the sense that if the two were sold in the same place, the drinker of Anheuser-Busch pisswater might gravitate to a mellow Speyside malt. Which would be a bad thing.</p>

	<p>Then there is &#8216;gateway&#8217; in the sense that simply drinking Anheuser-Busch pisswater would naturally lead the drinker to seek out 18-y-o Macallan. Would that it were so, but I suspect otherwise.</p>
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		<title>By: armando</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/08/a-hack-writes/comment-page-1/#comment-167827</link>
		<dc:creator>armando</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Aug 2006 02:23:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/08/a-hack-writes/#comment-167827</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The harm is that cannabis is a gateway drug that leads to abuse of harder drugs, themselves harmful in and of themselves. In other words, the harm from being a heroin addict is not that the heroin on the street is bad; its that its heroin. - steve&lt;/i&gt; 

You&#039;ve jumped from cannibis to heroin as if they are the same thing. Cannibis isn&#039;t harmful in its illegal form - though you need to know a drug dealer to get it, and hence it acts as a &quot;gateway&quot; - but heroin from a drug dealer is often harmful. If I recall correctly, there have been positive results in giving heroin addicts prescribed herion, which lets them lead normal lives, with a sharply decreased risk of poisoning and overdose. (Some info here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin )

Of course, that suggests some obvious measures for dealing with drug problems, none of which will happen any time soon since the war on drugs is not really about helping people in any meaningful sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>The harm is that cannabis is a gateway drug that leads to abuse of harder drugs, themselves harmful in and of themselves. In other words, the harm from being a heroin addict is not that the heroin on the street is bad; its that its heroin. &#8211; steve</i></p>

	<p>You&#8217;ve jumped from cannibis to heroin as if they are the same thing. Cannibis isn&#8217;t harmful in its illegal form &#8211; though you need to know a drug dealer to get it, and hence it acts as a &#8220;gateway&#8221; &#8211; but heroin from a drug dealer is often harmful. If I recall correctly, there have been positive results in giving heroin addicts prescribed herion, which lets them lead normal lives, with a sharply decreased risk of poisoning and overdose. (Some info here &#8211; <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin</a> )</p>

	<p>Of course, that suggests some obvious measures for dealing with drug problems, none of which will happen any time soon since the war on drugs is not really about helping people in any meaningful sense.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Bellmore</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/08/a-hack-writes/comment-page-1/#comment-167824</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Bellmore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Aug 2006 23:36:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/08/a-hack-writes/#comment-167824</guid>
		<description>The best that can be said of &lt;i&gt;these&lt;/i&gt; stem cell treatments, (The concept isn&#039;t absurd, the execution is.) is that they&#039;re probably taken out by the subject&#039;s immune response too fast to cause any damage. At least, they will be if the patients are lucky; There&#039;s at least some risk of generating auto-immune diseases when unmatched human tissue is transplanted without immune suppression.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The best that can be said of <i>these</i> stem cell treatments, (The concept isn&#8217;t absurd, the execution is.) is that they&#8217;re probably taken out by the subject&#8217;s immune response too fast to cause any damage. At least, they will be if the patients are lucky; There&#8217;s at least some risk of generating auto-immune diseases when unmatched human tissue is transplanted without immune suppression.</p>
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		<title>By: jim</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/08/a-hack-writes/comment-page-1/#comment-167817</link>
		<dc:creator>jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Aug 2006 21:49:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/08/a-hack-writes/#comment-167817</guid>
		<description>I see you travelled in _a step above steerage_ ~TM~.  In steerage, of course, no free paper can be offered.  In business class, there is a choice of serious papers.  But in _a step above steerage_ ~TM~ only one paper is offered, The Daily Mail.

A British specialty:  making finely graded distinctions between classes since god knows when.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I see you travelled in <em>a step above steerage</em> <sub>TM</sub>.  In steerage, of course, no free paper can be offered.  In business class, there is a choice of serious papers.  But in <em>a step above steerage</em> <sub>TM</sub> only one paper is offered, The Daily Mail.</p>

	<p>A British specialty:  making finely graded distinctions between classes since god knows when.</p>
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		<title>By: Uncle Kvetch</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/08/a-hack-writes/comment-page-1/#comment-167816</link>
		<dc:creator>Uncle Kvetch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Aug 2006 21:30:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/08/a-hack-writes/#comment-167816</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;What is need is full scale legalization which allows “customers” to grow cannabis in their own gardens.&lt;/i&gt;

I have to agree with this...I&#039;d much rather buy a &quot;Grow Your Own&quot; kit from the local big-box store than whatever shit they choose to sell.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>What is need is full scale legalization which allows &#8220;customers&#8221; to grow cannabis in their own gardens.</i></p>

	<p>I have to agree with this&#8230;I&#8217;d much rather buy a &#8220;Grow Your Own&#8221; kit from the local big-box store than whatever shit they choose to sell.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt_Bishop</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/08/a-hack-writes/comment-page-1/#comment-167810</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt_Bishop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Aug 2006 20:34:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/08/a-hack-writes/#comment-167810</guid>
		<description>Clearly, a legalised drugs market would involve consumers facing an array of choices that may disturb non-drug users among us, much as the liquor store disturbs the Methodist. 

Companies supplying drugs would presumably innovate, after a great deal of research, to provide a range of products that deliver various experiences to the customer, some associated with much harder drugs on the market today than cannabis. Presumably this research would focus on how to minimise the extreme negative effects of these hard drugs (which, in so far as these effects are inseparable from the chemical process that generates the desired effect, might leave space for an illegal market, presumably far more marginalised than today&#039;s). 

The corporates supplying the products might end up playing a gateway function, but their legal exposure, transparency and longer-term focus would be a powerful discipline upon them to do it in a much less dangerous way than illegal drug dealers, who, as Freakonomics showed, have an extremely short-termist approach to their business.

   All of this is an uncomfortable prospect, for sure, but much less so than the reality that is today&#039;s illegal drugs business.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Clearly, a legalised drugs market would involve consumers facing an array of choices that may disturb non-drug users among us, much as the liquor store disturbs the Methodist.</p>

	<p>Companies supplying drugs would presumably innovate, after a great deal of research, to provide a range of products that deliver various experiences to the customer, some associated with much harder drugs on the market today than cannabis. Presumably this research would focus on how to minimise the extreme negative effects of these hard drugs (which, in so far as these effects are inseparable from the chemical process that generates the desired effect, might leave space for an illegal market, presumably far more marginalised than today&#8217;s).</p>

	<p>The corporates supplying the products might end up playing a gateway function, but their legal exposure, transparency and longer-term focus would be a powerful discipline upon them to do it in a much less dangerous way than illegal drug dealers, who, as Freakonomics showed, have an extremely short-termist approach to their business.</p>

	<p>All of this is an uncomfortable prospect, for sure, but much less so than the reality that is today&#8217;s illegal drugs business.</p>
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		<title>By: joe</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/08/a-hack-writes/comment-page-1/#comment-167807</link>
		<dc:creator>joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Aug 2006 20:14:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/08/a-hack-writes/#comment-167807</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;What is needed is the sort of full scale legalisation which allows customers to buy cannabis in Tesco or WalMart, from respectable purveyors like Philip Morris.&lt;/i&gt;

Is this sarcasm? I can&#039;t tell. But I trust my pot dealer far far more than I trust Philip Morris Corporation.

What is need is full scale legalization which allows &quot;customers&quot; to grow cannabis in their own gardens.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>What is needed is the sort of full scale legalisation which allows customers to buy cannabis in Tesco or WalMart, from respectable purveyors like Philip Morris.</i></p>

	<p>Is this sarcasm? I can&#8217;t tell. But I trust my pot dealer far far more than I trust Philip Morris Corporation.</p>

	<p>What is need is full scale legalization which allows &#8220;customers&#8221; to grow cannabis in their own gardens.</p>
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