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	<title>Comments on: A step above steerage</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/09/a-step-above-steerage/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/09/a-step-above-steerage/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: novakant</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/09/a-step-above-steerage/comment-page-1/#comment-168151</link>
		<dc:creator>novakant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Aug 2006 07:32:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/09/a-step-above-steerage/#comment-168151</guid>
		<description>while I wish they banned mobiles on the tube and trains this new guy wants to allow them on planes - the horror ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>while I wish they banned mobiles on the tube and trains this new guy wants to allow them on planes &#8211; the horror &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Anon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/09/a-step-above-steerage/comment-page-1/#comment-168102</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Aug 2006 19:39:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/09/a-step-above-steerage/#comment-168102</guid>
		<description>It seems quite possible to me that having the phone be in use, rather than just on (even if it receives a call) could cause greater problems as far as these things go.

And in any case, if you assume that each phone which is on has some small probability of causing problems during the flight then the chance of a problem occuring will increase roughly linearly in the number of phones. If instead of 100 phones being on, you have only 5 then you&#039;ll have cut the chance of a problem by a factor of 20. Maybe not a bad idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It seems quite possible to me that having the phone be in use, rather than just on (even if it receives a call) could cause greater problems as far as these things go.</p>

	<p>And in any case, if you assume that each phone which is on has some small probability of causing problems during the flight then the chance of a problem occuring will increase roughly linearly in the number of phones. If instead of 100 phones being on, you have only 5 then you&#8217;ll have cut the chance of a problem by a factor of 20. Maybe not a bad idea.</p>
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		<title>By: Maynard Handley</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/09/a-step-above-steerage/comment-page-1/#comment-168047</link>
		<dc:creator>Maynard Handley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Aug 2006 14:33:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/09/a-step-above-steerage/#comment-168047</guid>
		<description>&quot;
a) On airplanes it can and has been observed to interfere with GPS, sometimes ILS, etc. That doesn’t matter when taxiing, so airlines are increasingly permitting it while on the ground after landing. They don’t need GPS working for that. They do need GPS to work while flying, and want to verify that it is working before they take off.
&quot;

Let&#039;s assume that this is actually true. 
Then, we all know, there are generally at least five or six phones on any flight that someone forgets to turn off. But the airlines are quite happy with this situation --- they don&#039;t send phone nazis into your baggage checking, they don&#039;t use electronics to probe for cell phone signals. And we have never heard of a single case of this occurring. I call bullshit. 

Anything that is actually of REAL consequence on an airplane is not treated along the lines of &quot;we&#039;ll ask people to turn their phones off and if they don&#039;t do so, well, we did our best&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8221;<br />
a) On airplanes it can and has been observed to interfere with <span class="caps">GPS</span>, sometimes <span class="caps">ILS</span>, etc. That doesn&#8217;t matter when taxiing, so airlines are increasingly permitting it while on the ground after landing. They don&#8217;t need <span class="caps">GPS</span> working for that. They do need <span class="caps">GPS</span> to work while flying, and want to verify that it is working before they take off.<br />
&#8221;</p>

	<p>Let&#8217;s assume that this is actually true.<br />
Then, we all know, there are generally at least five or six phones on any flight that someone forgets to turn off. But the airlines are quite happy with this situation&#8212;- they don&#8217;t send phone nazis into your baggage checking, they don&#8217;t use electronics to probe for cell phone signals. And we have never heard of a single case of this occurring. I call bullshit.</p>

	<p>Anything that is actually of <span class="caps">REAL</span> consequence on an airplane is not treated along the lines of &#8220;we&#8217;ll ask people to turn their phones off and if they don&#8217;t do so, well, we did our best&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: euroscot</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/09/a-step-above-steerage/comment-page-1/#comment-168030</link>
		<dc:creator>euroscot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Aug 2006 13:28:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/09/a-step-above-steerage/#comment-168030</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Lady Shirley Porter, the famous Tory jerrymanderer and Tesco heiress, who has controversially just returned from exile to England.&lt;/strong&gt;

Public servants, worldwide, are very rarely penalised in the way she was for abuse of office. Probably because so few things count - for example wasting billions of pounds of taxpayers money doesn&#039;t count, nor do the costs of ignoring the UN Charter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><strong>Lady Shirley Porter, the famous Tory jerrymanderer and Tesco heiress, who has controversially just returned from exile to England.</strong></p>

	<p>Public servants, worldwide, are very rarely penalised in the way she was for abuse of office. Probably because so few things count &#8211; for example wasting billions of pounds of taxpayers money doesn&#8217;t count, nor do the costs of ignoring the <span class="caps">UN </span>Charter.</p>
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		<title>By: rupes</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/09/a-step-above-steerage/comment-page-1/#comment-168006</link>
		<dc:creator>rupes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Aug 2006 09:06:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/09/a-step-above-steerage/#comment-168006</guid>
		<description>Another thought:

While we are talking about US Customs &amp; the hassle they cause:

Why have they not got the concept of &quot;Transfer Passenger&quot;  ?

It would make queues shorter &amp; life easier for all involved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Another thought:</p>

	<p>While we are talking about <span class="caps">US </span>Customs &#038; the hassle they cause:</p>

	<p>Why have they not got the concept of &#8220;Transfer Passenger&#8221;  ?</p>

	<p>It would make queues shorter &#038; life easier for all involved.</p>
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		<title>By: rupes</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/09/a-step-above-steerage/comment-page-1/#comment-168005</link>
		<dc:creator>rupes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Aug 2006 09:01:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/09/a-step-above-steerage/#comment-168005</guid>
		<description>This is all a little too late.

Many airline already have WiFi access points on board, which of course means you can Skype: I  got a call yesterday from a colleague en route to China.

It does rather make the point that this is a silly rule: if you can use WiFi radio cards on Lufhansa (and chatter for free) why not a cellular radio (and chatter that the airline profits from)

The Economist article linked above went on to describe the likely use of picocells (dedicated, small basestations) on planes.
There are three advantages:
- The airline gets a cut of the revenue (Roaming is lucrative)
- It solves the problem of rapid handover for ground networks (as noted, there are phones acidentally left on). 
- Cellphones adjust their volume. To go 30,000ft they SHOUT LOUD, which makes any interference worse. If you have a local BS inside the plane then all the phones will be nice &amp; quiet. 


Incidentally, on searching for this, I found a related article on the security aspects &amp; concerns by the excellent &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005/07/risks_of_airpla.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Bruce Schneir&lt;/a&gt;

None of which makes US customs more sensible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This is all a little too late.</p>

	<p>Many airline already have WiFi access points on board, which of course means you can Skype: I  got a call yesterday from a colleague en route to China.</p>

	<p>It does rather make the point that this is a silly rule: if you can use WiFi radio cards on Lufhansa (and chatter for free) why not a cellular radio (and chatter that the airline profits from)</p>

	<p>The Economist article linked above went on to describe the likely use of picocells (dedicated, small basestations) on planes.<br />
There are three advantages: &#8211; The airline gets a cut of the revenue (Roaming is lucrative) &#8211; It solves the problem of rapid handover for ground networks (as noted, there are phones acidentally left on). &#8211; Cellphones adjust their volume. To go 30,000ft they <span class="caps">SHOUT LOUD</span>, which makes any interference worse. If you have a local BS inside the plane then all the phones will be nice &#038; quiet.</p>


	<p>Incidentally, on searching for this, I found a related article on the security aspects &#038; concerns by the excellent <a href="http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005/07/risks_of_airpla.html" rel="nofollow">Bruce Schneir</a></p>

	<p>None of which makes US customs more sensible.</p>
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		<title>By: chris y</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/09/a-step-above-steerage/comment-page-1/#comment-168000</link>
		<dc:creator>chris y</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Aug 2006 06:58:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/09/a-step-above-steerage/#comment-168000</guid>
		<description>4b: for crying in the beer, smugglers can&#039;t text with their phones/hands in their pockets?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>4b: for crying in the beer, smugglers can&#8217;t text with their phones/hands in their pockets?</p>
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		<title>By: Evan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/09/a-step-above-steerage/comment-page-1/#comment-167983</link>
		<dc:creator>Evan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Aug 2006 02:28:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/09/a-step-above-steerage/#comment-167983</guid>
		<description>The rules about use of cell phones on the ground are, I think, set by each countries aviation authorities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The rules about use of cell phones on the ground are, I think, set by each countries aviation authorities.</p>
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		<title>By: MFA</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/09/a-step-above-steerage/comment-page-1/#comment-167976</link>
		<dc:creator>MFA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Aug 2006 01:00:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/09/a-step-above-steerage/#comment-167976</guid>
		<description>Your science and technology colleagues may be interested in this:

http://www.cmu.edu/PR/releases06/060228_cellphone.html

&quot;Carnegie Mellon Researchers Find Cell Phones Pose Greater Risk to Airplane Navigation Than Previously Believed&quot;

&quot;PITTSBURGH—A study by Carnegie Mellon University researchers in the Department of Engineering and Public Policy (EPP) has found that cell phones and other portable electronic devices, like laptops and game-playing devices, can pose dangers to the normal operation of critical electronics on airplanes. The study will be featured in an article appearing in the March issue of IEEE Spectrum.&quot;

Remainder of press release at link above.

There&#039;s absolutely no reason the airlines would ban cell-phone use for screwing up the signal carrier&#039;s cell network unless the airline were owned by the same corporation. Otherwise, shareholder value would be increased by highlighting the ability to fly and talk on airline X.

So please turn &#039;em off for safety, if not for  simple civility.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Your science and technology colleagues may be interested in this:</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.cmu.edu/PR/releases06/060228_cellphone.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.cmu.edu/PR/releases06/060228_cellphone.html</a></p>

	<p>&#8220;Carnegie Mellon Researchers Find Cell Phones Pose Greater Risk to Airplane Navigation Than Previously Believed&#8221;</p>

	<p>&#8220;PITTSBURGH&#8212;A study by Carnegie Mellon University researchers in the Department of Engineering and Public Policy (EPP) has found that cell phones and other portable electronic devices, like laptops and game-playing devices, can pose dangers to the normal operation of critical electronics on airplanes. The study will be featured in an article appearing in the March issue of <span class="caps">IEEE </span>Spectrum.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Remainder of press release at link above.</p>

	<p>There&#8217;s absolutely no reason the airlines would ban cell-phone use for screwing up the signal carrier&#8217;s cell network unless the airline were owned by the same corporation. Otherwise, shareholder value would be increased by highlighting the ability to fly and talk on airline X.</p>

	<p>So please turn &#8216;em off for safety, if not for  simple civility.</p>
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		<title>By: nick s</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/09/a-step-above-steerage/comment-page-1/#comment-167964</link>
		<dc:creator>nick s</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Aug 2006 23:00:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/09/a-step-above-steerage/#comment-167964</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Can anyone explain this intolerance of phones? Perhaps the immigration officers prefer silence in their halls, but there is no ban on conversation per se.&lt;/i&gt;

Security theatre, one suspects, though I&#039;m sure there&#039;s an official rationale related to the potential to co-ordinate activity or set off bombs or whatever. My gut feeling is that it&#039;s a way to put you suitably on edge to be grilled.

You also have to switch off your phone inside any DHS/USCIS building: in fact, some offices &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/06/19/IMMIG.TMP&amp;type=printable&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;don&#039;t even allow you to bring them in&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Can anyone explain this intolerance of phones? Perhaps the immigration officers prefer silence in their halls, but there is no ban on conversation per se.</i></p>

	<p>Security theatre, one suspects, though I&#8217;m sure there&#8217;s an official rationale related to the potential to co-ordinate activity or set off bombs or whatever. My gut feeling is that it&#8217;s a way to put you suitably on edge to be grilled.</p>

	<p>You also have to switch off your phone inside any <span class="caps">DHS</span>/USCIS building: in fact, some offices <a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/06/19/IMMIG.TMP&#038;type=printable" rel="nofollow">don&#8217;t even allow you to bring them in</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: jchuong</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/09/a-step-above-steerage/comment-page-1/#comment-167962</link>
		<dc:creator>jchuong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Aug 2006 22:45:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/09/a-step-above-steerage/#comment-167962</guid>
		<description>This doesn&#039;t apply to mobile usage on the plane itself, but I remember seeing a sign that linked the no cell phone policy in immigration to the fact that cell phones may now well be...cell phone cameras. I&#039;m not sure what they think we&#039;ll take photographs of, but apparently it poses a &quot;security concern.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This doesn&#8217;t apply to mobile usage on the plane itself, but I remember seeing a sign that linked the no cell phone policy in immigration to the fact that cell phones may now well be&#8230;cell phone cameras. I&#8217;m not sure what they think we&#8217;ll take photographs of, but apparently it poses a &#8220;security concern.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: Rob St. Amant</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/09/a-step-above-steerage/comment-page-1/#comment-167937</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob St. Amant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Aug 2006 20:47:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/09/a-step-above-steerage/#comment-167937</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Surely it is time to free the mobile phone for use in flight…&lt;/i&gt;

Count me in with kf---please, no.  Flying is already maddening enough without cell phones.  If it does happen, I predict this progression: a rash of TV commercials advertising, &quot;You can now talk on your phone while you fly with X Airlines!&quot; a spike in incidents of &quot;air rage&quot;; another rash of TV commercials advertising, &quot;Fly in peace and quiet with X Airlines, where talking on phones during flight is not allowed!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Surely it is time to free the mobile phone for use in flight&#8230;</i></p>

	<p>Count me in with kf&#8212;-please, no.  Flying is already maddening enough without cell phones.  If it does happen, I predict this progression: a rash of TV commercials advertising, &#8220;You can now talk on your phone while you fly with X Airlines!&#8221; a spike in incidents of &#8220;air rage&#8221;; another rash of TV commercials advertising, &#8220;Fly in peace and quiet with X Airlines, where talking on phones during flight is not allowed!&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/09/a-step-above-steerage/comment-page-1/#comment-167933</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Aug 2006 20:11:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/09/a-step-above-steerage/#comment-167933</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;However, my science and technology colleagues tell me that there is no way that a mobile phone can interfere with the electrics in this way, and that it is perfectly safe to use phones in the air.&lt;/i&gt;

You should read &lt;i&gt;The Economist&lt;/i&gt;: it&#039;s much better than the &lt;i&gt;Daily Mail&lt;/i&gt;, you know.

&lt;blockquote&gt;CONTRARY to popular belief, mobile phones do not pose a safety threat to airliners. On an average transatlantic flight, several phones are usually left switched on by accident, and the avionics systems on modern aircraft are hardened against radio interference. No, the use of phones on planes is banned because they disrupt mobile networks on the ground. An airliner with 500 phones on board, whizzing across a city, can befuddle a mobile network as the phones busily hop from one base-station to the next.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

http://www.economist.com/business/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2559174</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>However, my science and technology colleagues tell me that there is no way that a mobile phone can interfere with the electrics in this way, and that it is perfectly safe to use phones in the air.</i></p>

	<p>You should read <i>The Economist</i>: it&#8217;s much better than the <i>Daily Mail</i>, you know.</p>

	<p><blockquote><span class="caps">CONTRARY</span> to popular belief, mobile phones do not pose a safety threat to airliners. On an average transatlantic flight, several phones are usually left switched on by accident, and the avionics systems on modern aircraft are hardened against radio interference. No, the use of phones on planes is banned because they disrupt mobile networks on the ground. An airliner with 500 phones on board, whizzing across a city, can befuddle a mobile network as the phones busily hop from one base-station to the next.</blockquote></p>

	<p><a href="http://www.economist.com/business/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2559174" rel="nofollow">http://www.economist.com/business/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2559174</a></p>
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		<title>By: Cheryl Morgan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/09/a-step-above-steerage/comment-page-1/#comment-167929</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl Morgan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Aug 2006 19:49:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/09/a-step-above-steerage/#comment-167929</guid>
		<description>One of the things about US immigration is that once you have been through Secondary (as they call it) for whatever reason they will put a mark on your record. The next time you go through, the immigration agent will see that mark and send you back through Secondary again just in case. I used to get stopped on a regular basis, even though I had a work permit. Then one trip it stopped and I&#039;ve never had trouble since.

Noise-cancelling earphones and something loud on the MP3 player seems to cope with most aircraft noise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>One of the things about US immigration is that once you have been through Secondary (as they call it) for whatever reason they will put a mark on your record. The next time you go through, the immigration agent will see that mark and send you back through Secondary again just in case. I used to get stopped on a regular basis, even though I had a work permit. Then one trip it stopped and I&#8217;ve never had trouble since.</p>

	<p>Noise-cancelling earphones and something loud on the <span class="caps">MP3</span> player seems to cope with most aircraft noise.</p>
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		<title>By: akumasmith</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/09/a-step-above-steerage/comment-page-1/#comment-167928</link>
		<dc:creator>akumasmith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Aug 2006 19:46:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/09/a-step-above-steerage/#comment-167928</guid>
		<description>Actually, now that I think of it, if you knew enough about the instruments on the plane, and knew a bit about electronics, you could very easily alter your phone to screw up them up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Actually, now that I think of it, if you knew enough about the instruments on the plane, and knew a bit about electronics, you could very easily alter your phone to screw up them up.</p>
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