Comments on: The Wind that Shakes the Barley http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/15/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sat, 26 May 2012 21:58:23 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: peter http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/15/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/comment-page-1/#comment-168976 peter Fri, 18 Aug 2006 03:48:05 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/15/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/#comment-168976 Ajay, I don't really see how what I said is a non-sequitur. It was sarcasm that would seem to be a natural vein to follow from the original statement. Do you care to clarify? And no, I did not touch a nerve. I actually have IRA members in my family tree (mother's side) from back in the day, and have few illusions about "the movement". I was one of the few people in my family who did not support the IRA during the Troubles in the Seventies and Eighties. I know that, in reality, the IRA did in fact meet a number of standards by which one might label an organization facist. I just find it funny that Ireland is one those interesting cases where it is the occupied who seem to be under all the pressure to make apologies. And that I think is a reasonable point: if you really want to get rid of that facist organization, focus on the cause, because that organization, however disgusting, is the effect. Ajay,
I don’t really see how what I said is a non-sequitur. It was sarcasm that would seem to be a natural vein to follow from the original statement. Do you care to clarify?

And no, I did not touch a nerve. I actually have IRA members in my family tree (mother’s side) from back in the day, and have few illusions about “the movement”. I was one of the few people in my family who did not support the IRA during the Troubles in the Seventies and Eighties.

I know that, in reality, the IRA did in fact meet a number of standards by which one might label an organization facist. I just find it funny that Ireland is one those interesting cases where it is the occupied who seem to be under all the pressure to make apologies.

And that I think is a reasonable point: if you really want to get rid of that facist organization, focus on the cause, because that organization, however disgusting, is the effect.

]]> By: DC http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/15/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/comment-page-1/#comment-168823 DC Wed, 16 Aug 2006 22:56:49 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/15/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/#comment-168823 I was rather irritated by the manner in which Loach dragged the tenor of the anti-treaty argument way to the left of what it really was - at least what it consciously was. Certainly there was a social aspect to the divide - the lower classes (though I'm not sure about the industrial working class) were certainly more likely to be anti-treaty than the better off. It's not that it's implausible that people would have said things in the (socialist) manner Loach has them say it in the debate scenes (someone like Countess Markiewicz certainly did in the Dail debate), just that it's unrepresentative according to what I've read. Still, definitely worth seeing. As usual Loach's naturalistic acting approach has its ups and downs. I really enjoyed the training scenes, and obviously the torture and execution scenes are fairly powerful. I was rather irritated by the manner in which Loach dragged the tenor of the anti-treaty argument way to the left of what it really was – at least what it consciously was. Certainly there was a social aspect to the divide – the lower classes (though I’m not sure about the industrial working class) were certainly more likely to be anti-treaty than the better off.

It’s not that it’s implausible that people would have said things in the (socialist) manner Loach has them say it in the debate scenes (someone like Countess Markiewicz certainly did in the Dail debate), just that it’s unrepresentative according to what I’ve read.

Still, definitely worth seeing. As usual Loach’s naturalistic acting approach has its ups and downs. I really enjoyed the training scenes, and obviously the torture and execution scenes are fairly powerful.

]]> By: EWI http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/15/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/comment-page-1/#comment-168805 EWI Wed, 16 Aug 2006 18:51:33 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/15/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/#comment-168805 @ dearieme - no problem! The Irish (republican, that is, not Redmondism) nationalism of the period was no worse than any other country's, and better than most. @ ajay: <i>I wouldn’t like to say whether Dev was a fascist or not – not my period; I’m a 17th-century man – but the Blueshirts were certainly kicking around in the interwar period, descended from one side of the Civil War forces.</i> I'm sure that I'm not the only one who noticed that you failed to mention that Dev was on the <i>other</i> side to those who became the Blueshirts, not to mention the "March on Dublin" or that most IRA who went to Spain joined the Republican side. @ dearieme – no problem! The Irish (republican, that is, not Redmondism) nationalism of the period was no worse than any other country’s, and better than most.

@ ajay:

I wouldn’t like to say whether Dev was a fascist or not – not my period; I’m a 17th-century man – but the Blueshirts were certainly kicking around in the interwar period, descended from one side of the Civil War forces.

I’m sure that I’m not the only one who noticed that you failed to mention that Dev was on the other side to those who became the Blueshirts, not to mention the “March on Dublin” or that most IRA who went to Spain joined the Republican side.

]]> By: dearieme http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/15/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/comment-page-1/#comment-168788 dearieme Wed, 16 Aug 2006 14:38:08 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/15/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/#comment-168788 ewi: I plead ignorance - but I do recognise a nice tease. ewi: I plead ignorance – but I do recognise a nice tease.

]]> By: ajay http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/15/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/comment-page-1/#comment-168772 ajay Wed, 16 Aug 2006 10:08:33 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/15/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/#comment-168772 Laura - I don't think that's a ridiculous criticism - lots of things are important bits of history but make terrible cinema. The negotiations over the European Coal and Steel Community in the 1950s started something pretty big, but I have great difficulty imagining a less interesting topic for a film. Peter: non sequitur. Touched a nerve, did we? I wouldn't like to say whether Dev was a fascist or not - not my period; I'm a 17th-century man - but the Blueshirts were certainly kicking around in the interwar period, descended from one side of the Civil War forces. (Ridiculous mob. "Hail, O'Duffy!" indeed. Like something out of PG Wodehouse.) Laura – I don’t think that’s a ridiculous criticism – lots of things are important bits of history but make terrible cinema. The negotiations over the European Coal and Steel Community in the 1950s started something pretty big, but I have great difficulty imagining a less interesting topic for a film.

Peter: non sequitur. Touched a nerve, did we?

I wouldn’t like to say whether Dev was a fascist or not – not my period; I’m a 17th-century man – but the Blueshirts were certainly kicking around in the interwar period, descended from one side of the Civil War forces. (Ridiculous mob. “Hail, O’Duffy!” indeed. Like something out of PG Wodehouse.)

]]> By: methinkitsme http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/15/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/comment-page-1/#comment-168756 methinkitsme Wed, 16 Aug 2006 05:08:18 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/15/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/#comment-168756 Does the soundtrack include Lisa Gerrard's beautiful rendition? I am hoping not and so, she sings it well. Does the soundtrack include Lisa Gerrard’s beautiful rendition? I am hoping not and so, she sings it well.

]]> By: Laura http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/15/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/comment-page-1/#comment-168751 Laura Wed, 16 Aug 2006 03:27:55 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/15/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/#comment-168751 I can see at least two ways in which this is a quite ridiculous objection to make, but I thought TWTSTB was very good up until those points where the actual movie ground to a halt and was replaced with scenes of people in rooms shouting at one another a la debating teams. It's Ken Loach's thing but that doesn't make it ok... I can see at least two ways in which this is a quite ridiculous objection to make, but I thought TWTSTB was very good up until those points where the actual movie ground to a halt and was replaced with scenes of people in rooms shouting at one another a la debating teams. It’s Ken Loach’s thing but that doesn’t make it ok…

]]> By: EWI http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/15/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/comment-page-1/#comment-168738 EWI Tue, 15 Aug 2006 23:59:43 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/15/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/#comment-168738 <i>But I once read Stanley Payne, who produced a check-list of the characteristics of fascism, and it seemed to me that the Easter Rising crowd fitted it quite well.</i> Yes, but what is your opinion on the clear Communism of the Levellers? But I once read Stanley Payne, who produced a check-list of the characteristics of fascism, and it seemed to me that the Easter Rising crowd fitted it quite well.

Yes, but what is your opinion on the clear Communism of the Levellers?

]]> By: sidereal http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/15/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/comment-page-1/#comment-168735 sidereal Tue, 15 Aug 2006 23:41:58 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/15/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/#comment-168735 Did you sit within the valley green? Did you sit you with your true love? Did your sad heart strive the two between, the old love and the new love (the old for her, the new that made you think on Ireland dearly) while soft the wind blew down the glade and shook the golden barley? Did you sit within the valley green? Did you sit you with your true love? Did your sad heart strive the two between, the old love and the new love (the old for her, the new that made you think on Ireland dearly) while soft the wind blew down the glade and shook the golden barley?

]]> By: dearieme http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/15/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/comment-page-1/#comment-168732 dearieme Tue, 15 Aug 2006 22:57:20 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/15/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/#comment-168732 rupes, apologies for being so cryptic. Dev wasn't particularly who I had in mind, and my mind was more on the Easter Rising rather than the post war fighting. But I once read Stanley Payne, who produced a check-list of the characteristics of fascism, and it seemed to me that the Easter Rising crowd fitted it quite well. Much better than, for instance, many of Franco's supporters - the reactionary catholics and the monarchists, I mean, not the Falange. rupes, apologies for being so cryptic. Dev wasn’t particularly who I had in mind, and my mind was more on the Easter Rising rather than the post war fighting. But I once read Stanley Payne, who produced a check-list of the characteristics of fascism, and it seemed to me that the Easter Rising crowd fitted it quite well. Much better than, for instance, many of Franco’s supporters – the reactionary catholics and the monarchists, I mean, not the Falange.

]]> By: rupes http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/15/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/comment-page-1/#comment-168712 rupes Tue, 15 Aug 2006 19:56:37 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/15/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/#comment-168712 Dearieme (#5) <i>You could argue, of course, that such films are celebrating the first successful European fascist movement of the 20th century.</i> Can you explain? I am not being sarcastic, but I don't quite follow the point - perhaps because I don't know enough about the period. I think you are saying the DeValera was a fascist (or did I misunderstand you totally?) which I had not heard said before...? Dearieme (#5)
You could argue, of course, that such films are celebrating the first successful European fascist movement of the 20th century.

Can you explain? I am not being sarcastic, but I don’t quite follow the point – perhaps because I don’t know enough about the period. I think you are saying the DeValera was a fascist (or did I misunderstand you totally?) which I had not heard said before…?

]]> By: EWI http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/15/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/comment-page-1/#comment-168706 EWI Tue, 15 Aug 2006 19:19:36 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/15/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/#comment-168706 <i>An unexpected pleasure was the close physical resemblance between pompous landowner Sir John Hamilton (played by Roger Allam) and Christopher Hitchens.</i> Quite the coincidence, wasn't it? An unexpected pleasure was the close physical resemblance between pompous landowner Sir John Hamilton (played by Roger Allam) and Christopher Hitchens.

Quite the coincidence, wasn’t it?

]]> By: EWI http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/15/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/comment-page-1/#comment-168704 EWI Tue, 15 Aug 2006 19:14:00 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/15/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/#comment-168704 <i>On a slightly related note, I’ve wondered if Neil Jordan was having a little fun in Michael Collins by casting Alan Rickman, a master of the English bad-guy role, as Eamon DeValera.</i> Whatever about that, to me the definitive 'Michael Collins' and 'Eamonn de Valera' will always be Brendan Gleeson and Barry McGovern in <i>The Treaty</i>. On a slightly related note, I’ve wondered if Neil Jordan was having a little fun in Michael Collins by casting Alan Rickman, a master of the English bad-guy role, as Eamon DeValera.

Whatever about that, to me the definitive ‘Michael Collins’ and ‘Eamonn de Valera’ will always be Brendan Gleeson and Barry McGovern in The Treaty.

]]> By: peter http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/15/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/comment-page-1/#comment-168662 peter Tue, 15 Aug 2006 16:26:35 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/15/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/#comment-168662 "the first successful European fascist movement of the 20th century" I'm sure it particularly seemed so from the vantage point of the plush, overstuffed leather chairs in the studies and smoking rooms of all the smartest British colonial clubs and estates in Ireland. If it was really that great a concern, the British could always have taken the wind out of its sails by ... oh, wait, right: leaving. “the first successful European fascist movement of the 20th century”

I’m sure it particularly seemed so from the vantage point of the plush, overstuffed leather chairs in the studies and smoking rooms of all the smartest British colonial clubs and estates in Ireland.

If it was really that great a concern, the British could always have taken the wind out of its sails by … oh, wait, right: leaving.

]]> By: dearieme http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/15/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/comment-page-1/#comment-168652 dearieme Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:43:55 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/15/the-wind-that-shakes-the-barley/#comment-168652 You could argue, of course, that such films are celebrating the first successful European fascist movement of the 20th century. You could argue, of course, that such films are celebrating the first successful European fascist movement of the 20th century.

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