Comments on: Speed of speech and its implications http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/16/speed-of-speech-and-its-implications/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sat, 26 May 2012 21:58:23 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: bago http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/16/speed-of-speech-and-its-implications/comment-page-1/#comment-169196 bago Mon, 21 Aug 2006 09:54:30 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=5036#comment-169196 I guess there's not too many C++ hounds here. I guess there’s not too many C++ hounds here.

]]> By: Eli Rabett http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/16/speed-of-speech-and-its-implications/comment-page-1/#comment-169160 Eli Rabett Mon, 21 Aug 2006 00:37:23 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=5036#comment-169160 Someone once asked my wife why she spoke so fast and she replied "Because I have so much to say..... Welcome to New York Someone once asked my wife why she spoke so fast and she replied “Because I have so much to say…..

Welcome to New York

]]> By: Eszter http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/16/speed-of-speech-and-its-implications/comment-page-1/#comment-169140 Eszter Sun, 20 Aug 2006 21:30:19 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=5036#comment-169140 Well, Honnecker spoke often enough that one may have encountered the word.:) CM - I think I'll take your word for it re RkReÜAÜG, that's probably as much info as I need on that.:-) Well, Honnecker spoke often enough that one may have encountered the word.:)

CM - I think I’ll take your word for it re RkReÜAÜG, that’s probably as much info as I need on that.:-)

]]> By: Jussi http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/16/speed-of-speech-and-its-implications/comment-page-1/#comment-169130 Jussi Sun, 20 Aug 2006 18:48:00 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=5036#comment-169130 <i> ..but I think part of the point of LPG was that it actually meant something and was used in day-to-day language </i> Agreed, but if you were referring to one, you would just say LPG blä blä and not <i> Landwirtschaftliches was auch immer. </i> Unless you were Honnecker :-) ..but I think part of the point of LPG was that it actually meant something and was used in day-to-day language

Agreed, but if you were referring to one, you would just say LPG blä blä and not Landwirtschaftliches was auch immer.

Unless you were Honnecker :-)

]]> By: cm http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/16/speed-of-speech-and-its-implications/comment-page-1/#comment-169128 cm Sun, 20 Aug 2006 18:19:54 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=5036#comment-169128 Agglutination has its limits. After a few "levels" it is be replaced by grammatical constructs which expose the structure better, and lend themselves better to reading and writing. Agglutination, at least in German, also can only express "linear" relationships. For example, "department of agriculture" can be represented as "agriculturedepartment", but "department of agriculture and forestry" cannot as the conjunction adds a nonlinear component. There is the (legal and used) construction "agriculture- and forestrydepartment" which is kind of an agglutination, but not technically in a single word. According to Wikipedia, the longest recent German word in actual use is "Rinderkennzeichnungs- und Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz", the name of a legal text, which "abbreviates" to "RkReÜAÜG". This is actally a "real-world" case of my example above. This is a law governing tracking of cattle and beef as part of addressing mad cow disease. Google it for more detail if so interested. Agglutination has its limits. After a few “levels” it is be replaced by grammatical constructs which expose the structure better, and lend themselves better to reading and writing. Agglutination, at least in German, also can only express “linear” relationships. For example, “department of agriculture” can be represented as “agriculturedepartment”, but “department of agriculture and forestry” cannot as the conjunction adds a nonlinear component. There is the (legal and used) construction “agriculture- and forestrydepartment” which is kind of an agglutination, but not technically in a single word.

According to Wikipedia, the longest recent German word in actual use is “Rinderkennzeichnungs- und Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz”, the name of a legal text, which “abbreviates” to “RkReÜAÜG”. This is actally a “real-world” case of my example above. This is a law governing tracking of cattle and beef as part of addressing mad cow disease. Google it for more detail if so interested.

]]> By: Eszter http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/16/speed-of-speech-and-its-implications/comment-page-1/#comment-169125 Eszter Sun, 20 Aug 2006 16:54:36 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=5036#comment-169125 Thanks, Jussi, but I think part of the point of LPG was that it actually meant something and was used in day-to-day language. (Okay, maybe it wasn't used often, but it made sense and was used on occasion.) One of the longest Hungarian words uses rules similar to the ones described with Finnish (as a result of that Google search). But again, it's not really a word one would use much: megszentségteleníthetetlenségeskedéseitekért.. although it is still somewhat meaningful. <a href="http://www.answers.com/topic/hungarian-language" rel="nofollow">This page</a> suggests a couple of translations. Thanks, Jussi, but I think part of the point of LPG was that it actually meant something and was used in day-to-day language. (Okay, maybe it wasn’t used often, but it made sense and was used on occasion.) One of the longest Hungarian words uses rules similar to the ones described with Finnish (as a result of that Google search). But again, it’s not really a word one would use much: megszentségteleníthetetlenségeskedéseitekért.. although it is still somewhat meaningful. This page suggests a couple of translations.

]]> By: Jussi http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/16/speed-of-speech-and-its-implications/comment-page-1/#comment-169115 Jussi Sun, 20 Aug 2006 14:30:16 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=5036#comment-169115 Eszter, if you like long words, google "the longest word in the world" and you'll find a monster with more than 1750 letters. <i> (...and you could make it longer, if you wanted...) </i> Eszter, if you like long words, google “the longest word in the world” and you’ll find a monster with more than 1750 letters.

(…and you could make it longer, if you wanted…)

]]> By: Eszter http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/16/speed-of-speech-and-its-implications/comment-page-1/#comment-169113 Eszter Sun, 20 Aug 2006 12:54:31 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=5036#comment-169113 Oh bummer, I always loved that word. Thanks for clarifying. Oh bummer, I always loved that word. Thanks for clarifying.

]]> By: cm http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/16/speed-of-speech-and-its-implications/comment-page-1/#comment-169105 cm Sun, 20 Aug 2006 08:14:10 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=5036#comment-169105 Eszter: It's "Landwirtschaftliche Produktionsgenossenschaft" -- two words, both moderately agglutinated. Only is abbreviation (LPG) is one "word". The long form was hardly ever used, as even in German long words and phrases denoting a commonly used concept are considered somewhat impractical. Eszter: It’s “Landwirtschaftliche Produktionsgenossenschaft”—two words, both moderately agglutinated. Only is abbreviation (LPG) is one “word”. The long form was hardly ever used, as even in German long words and phrases denoting a commonly used concept are considered somewhat impractical.

]]> By: bago http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/16/speed-of-speech-and-its-implications/comment-page-1/#comment-169042 bago Sat, 19 Aug 2006 01:16:26 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=5036#comment-169042 Obviously they're using reverse hungarian notation. Obviously they’re using reverse hungarian notation.

]]> By: Jussi http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/16/speed-of-speech-and-its-implications/comment-page-1/#comment-169015 Jussi Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:05:37 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=5036#comment-169015 <i> Finnish is historically related to Hungarian yet I can make no sense of that snippet there. </i> They're only very distantly related. About as distantly as the English or German languages are to Persian, according to one expert. Finnish is historically related to Hungarian yet I can make no sense of that snippet there.

They’re only very distantly related. About as distantly as the English or German languages are to Persian, according to one expert.

]]> By: Jussi http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/16/speed-of-speech-and-its-implications/comment-page-1/#comment-169009 Jussi Fri, 18 Aug 2006 16:47:43 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=5036#comment-169009 <i> (It means “Down at the store they have a lot of really long prices at the moment. I am going shpping. Can I get you something?”) </i> lol, you got away with it :-) <i> I understand that the Finns pronounce double letters slower than single ones, which makes rhythm an integral part of their speech, thus limiting the speed they can talk at. </i> Not really, Andrew. Listen to a Finnish commentary of a hockey game, and you'll hear it can be very fast indeed. (Or were you being ironic?) (It means “Down at the store they have a lot of really long prices at the moment. I am going shpping. Can I get you something?”)

lol, you got away with it :-)

I understand that the Finns pronounce double letters slower than single ones, which makes rhythm an integral part of their speech, thus limiting the speed they can talk at.

Not really, Andrew. Listen to a Finnish commentary of a hockey game, and you’ll hear it can be very fast indeed. (Or were you being ironic?)

]]> By: Kenny Easwaran http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/16/speed-of-speech-and-its-implications/comment-page-1/#comment-168979 Kenny Easwaran Fri, 18 Aug 2006 05:27:45 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=5036#comment-168979 Isn't there also a relevant fact about Hungarian here - namely that syllables almost always have one vowel and one consonant (sometimes two)? In English, we've got syllables like "strengths" in which we've got five consonants and one vowel, or "doubts", with three consonants and two vowels. That could plausibly lead to a different average length of time per syllable. Isn’t there also a relevant fact about Hungarian here – namely that syllables almost always have one vowel and one consonant (sometimes two)? In English, we’ve got syllables like “strengths” in which we’ve got five consonants and one vowel, or “doubts”, with three consonants and two vowels. That could plausibly lead to a different average length of time per syllable.

]]> By: Vándorló http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/16/speed-of-speech-and-its-implications/comment-page-1/#comment-168959 Vándorló Thu, 17 Aug 2006 23:04:49 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=5036#comment-168959 Surely the distinction Andrew makes is simply the difference between English being a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress-timed_language" rel="nofollow">stress timed language</a> and Hungarian (as well as Estonian, Finnish, Spanish, Japanese...) which is <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllable-timed_language" rel="nofollow">syllable timed language</a>? But this still doesn't correlate with speed of expression of a thought or idea. The question I would ask is whether there is a relationship between the form of a language and its conceptual compactness. Finn's may not talk fast, but they may say an awful lot. Surely the distinction Andrew makes is simply the difference between English being a stress timed language and Hungarian (as well as Estonian, Finnish, Spanish, Japanese…) which is syllable timed language?

But this still doesn’t correlate with speed of expression of a thought or idea. The question I would ask is whether there is a relationship between the form of a language and its conceptual compactness.

Finn’s may not talk fast, but they may say an awful lot.

]]> By: Eszter http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/16/speed-of-speech-and-its-implications/comment-page-1/#comment-168954 Eszter Thu, 17 Aug 2006 22:15:47 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=5036#comment-168954 Christopher M - I appreciate your point, I can see how that wouldn't work so well. Finnish is historically related to Hungarian yet I can make no sense of that snippet there. By the way, I thought German was the one known for having super long words. Landwirtschaftlichenproduktionsgenossenschaft was one of our favorites in middle school. Andrew - sounds like a fair connection to make.:) Christopher M – I appreciate your point, I can see how that wouldn’t work so well.

Finnish is historically related to Hungarian yet I can make no sense of that snippet there. By the way, I thought German was the one known for having super long words. Landwirtschaftlichenproduktionsgenossenschaft was one of our favorites in middle school.

Andrew – sounds like a fair connection to make.:)

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