Comments on: Dead enders http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/20/dead-enders/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sun, 22 Nov 2009 04:23:18 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Seth Gordon http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/20/dead-enders/comment-page-1/#comment-169437 Seth Gordon Wed, 23 Aug 2006 01:43:10 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/20/dead-enders/#comment-169437 By this logic, if a certain neighborhood in your city has a high crime rate, it must be the <em>good</em> neighborhood. If it weren't good, the criminals wouldn't be so devoted to making it bad. By this logic, if a certain neighborhood in your city has a high crime rate, it must be the good neighborhood. If it weren’t good, the criminals wouldn’t be so devoted to making it bad.

]]> By: Andrew L. http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/20/dead-enders/comment-page-1/#comment-169425 Andrew L. Tue, 22 Aug 2006 22:44:36 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/20/dead-enders/#comment-169425 What a sick motherf***er! "The fact that thousands of Iraqi civilians are piling up in the morgues every month, the victims of Sunni and Shiite death squads just goes to show how swimmingly Bush's plans are proceeding." This man should be shunned from civil society -- spit at in the street, forced to wear a sign that says "moral monster". What a sick motherf***er! “The fact that thousands of Iraqi civilians are piling up in the morgues every month, the victims of Sunni and Shiite death squads just goes to show how swimmingly Bush’s plans are proceeding.” This man should be shunned from civil society—spit at in the street, forced to wear a sign that says “moral monster”.

]]> By: minneapolitan http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/20/dead-enders/comment-page-1/#comment-169288 minneapolitan Mon, 21 Aug 2006 22:25:20 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/20/dead-enders/#comment-169288 I realize that #10 is meant in jest, however, I would protest that Anarchism and the situation in Somalia have about as much to do with each other as Hippiedom and the situation in Singapore. Somalia and, to some extent, Afghanistan are under a regime of Warlordism, not anarchism. A warlord represents all the power of the state concentrated into one individual who has ultimate control over the lives of others as long as he or she is in power -- really, that's just the exact opposite of anarchism. I think this underscores a point about the situation in Iraq as well. The problem is hardly an absence of state or civil authority, but rather an excess. It's fine to say that Iraq has a nice new constitution, but the problem is not its niceness but its durability. Having said that, I agree with #24. The Podhoretz piece is just sane-people-baiting at its most ridiculous. I realize that #10 is meant in jest, however, I would protest that Anarchism and the situation in Somalia have about as much to do with each other as Hippiedom and the situation in Singapore.
Somalia and, to some extent, Afghanistan are under a regime of Warlordism, not anarchism. A warlord represents all the power of the state concentrated into one individual who has ultimate control over the lives of others as long as he or she is in power—really, that’s just the exact opposite of anarchism.
I think this underscores a point about the situation in Iraq as well. The problem is hardly an absence of state or civil authority, but rather an excess. It’s fine to say that Iraq has a nice new constitution, but the problem is not its niceness but its durability.
Having said that, I agree with #24. The Podhoretz piece is just sane-people-baiting at its most ridiculous.

]]> By: Eamonn Fitzgerald http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/20/dead-enders/comment-page-1/#comment-169287 Eamonn Fitzgerald Mon, 21 Aug 2006 22:03:41 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/20/dead-enders/#comment-169287 Fred's honeymoon test is great. Well, kind of. While we're thinking about its deeper meaning, here's more bad news: "Former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein refused to enter a plea on the opening day of his trial on charges of genocide and crimes against humanity." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5268900.stm I mean it's bad news if you are a dictator, or a dictator on honeymoon. Right, said Fred! Fred’s honeymoon test is great. Well, kind of. While we’re thinking about its deeper meaning, here’s more bad news: “Former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein refused to enter a plea on the opening day of his trial on charges of genocide and crimes against humanity.”

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5268900.stm

I mean it’s bad news if you are a dictator, or a dictator on honeymoon. Right, said Fred!

]]> By: Guest http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/20/dead-enders/comment-page-1/#comment-169211 Guest Mon, 21 Aug 2006 14:04:34 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/20/dead-enders/#comment-169211 In re "retard." That's all he gets. Would you argue with a drunk? It's a big mistake for the left to keep snapping after the right's red meat. Nobody, no matter how retarded, really believes that kind of crap, unless they're "drunk." So what's to be gained? A pavlovian response mechanism has been established whereby the left wastes all its time and resources jumping after patently retarded crap. Time to stop taking it seriously and start coming up with better ideas. Thinking about retarded shit just ends up making you stupid, too. In re “retard.” That’s all he gets. Would you argue with a drunk? It’s a big mistake for the left to keep snapping after the right’s red meat. Nobody, no matter how retarded, really believes that kind of crap, unless they’re “drunk.” So what’s to be gained? A pavlovian response mechanism has been established whereby the left wastes all its time and resources jumping after patently retarded crap. Time to stop taking it seriously and start coming up with better ideas. Thinking about retarded shit just ends up making you stupid, too.

]]> By: fred lapides http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/20/dead-enders/comment-page-1/#comment-169208 fred lapides Mon, 21 Aug 2006 13:50:33 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/20/dead-enders/#comment-169208 A simple test to apply: would you vist as a tourist, go there for a honeymoon, buy a second home there? If not, why not? A simple test to apply: would you vist as a tourist, go there for a honeymoon, buy a second home there? If not, why not?

]]> By: james http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/20/dead-enders/comment-page-1/#comment-169207 james Mon, 21 Aug 2006 13:47:03 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/20/dead-enders/#comment-169207 walt: Sorry, I was unclear. I postulating that the bar for success in international military interventions is exceedingly low. Seirra Lione intervention is an example of this. walt: Sorry, I was unclear. I postulating that the bar for success in international military interventions is exceedingly low. Seirra Lione intervention is an example of this.

]]> By: nick s http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/20/dead-enders/comment-page-1/#comment-169203 nick s Mon, 21 Aug 2006 12:44:40 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/20/dead-enders/#comment-169203 <i>By what bizarre calculus does all this add up to failure?</i> Shorter Pod Sr: "Apart from that, Mrs Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?" By what bizarre calculus does all this add up to failure?

Shorter Pod Sr: “Apart from that, Mrs Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?”

]]> By: Steve LaBonne http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/20/dead-enders/comment-page-1/#comment-169200 Steve LaBonne Mon, 21 Aug 2006 11:25:17 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/20/dead-enders/#comment-169200 Yeah, bring on those Improvised Explosive Opportunities! Mr. Podhoretz, meet Mr. Mandvi. Yeah, bring on those Improvised Explosive Opportunities! Mr. Podhoretz, meet Mr. Mandvi.

]]> By: Bruce Baugh http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/20/dead-enders/comment-page-1/#comment-169198 Bruce Baugh Mon, 21 Aug 2006 10:42:40 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/20/dead-enders/#comment-169198 I don't want to push a very limited set of data very far, but...I was thinking recently about conservative and libertarian arguments against universal health care, and there's this same pattern at work. They present a scatter-shot of specific points, like "you can get this particular surgery 2.4 weeks faster in the US" and "there are 39% more machines that go 'ping' in the US", without ever looking at the larger perspective. Questions like "Do people live as long under this regimen?", "How much of their lives do they spend healthy?", and "Are they satisfied with their care?" just don't come up unless someone forces them in. Podhoretz is doing the same kind of thing here. "Look at this bit! And this!" But he seems to have no awareness of people as people, or interest in questions like "Are they trying to leave?", "Do people feel at liberty to pursue their work safely?", and "How does the rate of violence and disorder compare to the First World, and what would we think of it if it were here?" I don’t want to push a very limited set of data very far, but…I was thinking recently about conservative and libertarian arguments against universal health care, and there’s this same pattern at work. They present a scatter-shot of specific points, like “you can get this particular surgery 2.4 weeks faster in the US” and “there are 39% more machines that go ‘ping’ in the US”, without ever looking at the larger perspective. Questions like “Do people live as long under this regimen?”, “How much of their lives do they spend healthy?”, and “Are they satisfied with their care?” just don’t come up unless someone forces them in.

Podhoretz is doing the same kind of thing here. “Look at this bit! And this!” But he seems to have no awareness of people as people, or interest in questions like “Are they trying to leave?”, “Do people feel at liberty to pursue their work safely?”, and “How does the rate of violence and disorder compare to the First World, and what would we think of it if it were here?”

]]> By: Henry (not the famous one) http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/20/dead-enders/comment-page-1/#comment-169195 Henry (not the famous one) Mon, 21 Aug 2006 09:16:00 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/20/dead-enders/#comment-169195 Pravda 1934 or thereabouts: the forces of reaction always fight their fiercest at the eve of the triumph of socialism. Of course that was a justification for the oppression of largely imaginary internal enemies, rather than a way to convert ethnic cleansing, as it teeters on the verge of becoming the war of all against all, as proof of the imminent arrival of the Western democratic paradise, but the device is the same. We're giddy with success. Pravda 1934 or thereabouts: the forces of reaction always fight their fiercest at the eve of the triumph of socialism. Of course that was a justification for the oppression of largely imaginary internal enemies, rather than a way to convert ethnic cleansing, as it teeters on the verge of becoming the war of all against all, as proof of the imminent arrival of the Western democratic paradise, but the device is the same. We’re giddy with success.

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/20/dead-enders/comment-page-1/#comment-169194 abb1 Mon, 21 Aug 2006 08:46:02 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/20/dead-enders/#comment-169194 What is 'the Bush Doctrine'? I thought it had something to do with attacking states that harbor terrorists or something. Or was it version 1.0? Anyhow, there seems to be a new release in the pipeline: <blockquote> <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/17/world/middleeast/17military.html?_r=1&ei=5094&en=4d76e5064c0f3ee8&hp=&ex=1155873600&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin" rel="nofollow">NYT, August 17, 2006</a>: “Senior administration officials have acknowledged to me that they are considering alternatives other than democracy,” said one military affairs expert who received an Iraq briefing at the White House last month and agreed to speak only on condition of anonymity. </blockquote> Did Mr. Podhoretz miss the memo? Those damn spam filters. What is ‘the Bush Doctrine’? I thought it had something to do with attacking states that harbor terrorists or something. Or was it version 1.0?

Anyhow, there seems to be a new release in the pipeline:


NYT, August 17, 2006:
“Senior administration officials have acknowledged to me that they are considering alternatives other than democracy,” said one military affairs expert who received an Iraq briefing at the White House last month and agreed to speak only on condition of anonymity.

Did Mr. Podhoretz miss the memo? Those damn spam filters.

]]> By: Jeffrey Kramer http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/20/dead-enders/comment-page-1/#comment-169193 Jeffrey Kramer Mon, 21 Aug 2006 08:40:39 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/20/dead-enders/#comment-169193 It's possible for a sane person to argue that, when all this horrible bloodletting is over in Iraq, the practice of regular fair elections will survive and the rights proclaimed by the new constitution will become meaningful. It's not possible for a sane person to argue that a mere state of civil war and a paltry few tens of thousands of casualties therefrom shouldn't cause us to doubt the obvious success of the Bush legacy, since it has given the Iraqis a beautifully worded constitution. It’s possible for a sane person to argue that, when all this horrible bloodletting is over in Iraq, the practice of regular fair elections will survive and the rights proclaimed by the new constitution will become meaningful. It’s not possible for a sane person to argue that a mere state of civil war and a paltry few tens of thousands of casualties therefrom shouldn’t cause us to doubt the obvious success of the Bush legacy, since it has given the Iraqis a beautifully worded constitution.

]]> By: bad Jim http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/20/dead-enders/comment-page-1/#comment-169190 bad Jim Mon, 21 Aug 2006 07:29:18 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/20/dead-enders/#comment-169190 It's hard to make fun of so craven a screed, perhaps because we've heard it before: <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/dailybriefing/story/0,12965,935381,00.html" rel="nofollow">Saturday April 12, 2003</a> <blockquote>On one of the bleakest days since the invasion began, US defence secretary Donald Rumsfeld yesterday shrugged off turmoil and looting in Iraq as signs of the people's freedom. "It's untidy, and freedom's untidy," he said, jabbing his hand in the air. "Free people are free to make mistakes and commit crimes and do bad things. They're also free to live their lives and do wonderful things."</blockquote> Would Podhoretz argue that a peaceful, acquiescent Iraq was proof that democratization had failed? If the present outcome doesn't discredit his prescription, what would? It’s hard to make fun of so craven a screed, perhaps because we’ve heard it before:

Saturday April 12, 2003

On one of the bleakest days since the invasion began, US defence secretary Donald Rumsfeld yesterday shrugged off turmoil and looting in Iraq as signs of the people’s freedom.

“It’s untidy, and freedom’s untidy,” he said, jabbing his hand in the air. “Free people are free to make mistakes and commit crimes and do bad things. They’re also free to live their lives and do wonderful things.”

Would Podhoretz argue that a peaceful, acquiescent Iraq was proof that democratization had failed? If the present outcome doesn’t discredit his prescription, what would?

]]> By: Walt http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/20/dead-enders/comment-page-1/#comment-169188 Walt Mon, 21 Aug 2006 06:03:52 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/20/dead-enders/#comment-169188 bi: Guest forgot the "motherfucking". "He's a motherfucking retard" totally settles the issue. James: You realize that is an argument that Sierra Lione is a failure, not that Iraq is a success. bi: Guest forgot the “motherfucking”. “He’s a motherfucking retard” totally settles the issue.

James: You realize that is an argument that Sierra Lione is a failure, not that Iraq is a success.

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