Comments on: Slime and Defend, Vietnam style http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/22/slime-and-defend-vietnam-style/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sun, 27 May 2012 00:43:58 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: bellatrys http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/22/slime-and-defend-vietnam-style/comment-page-1/#comment-169566 bellatrys Thu, 24 Aug 2006 03:24:37 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/22/slime-and-defend-vietnam-style/#comment-169566 And the [natural, inevitable] followup to it: <a href="http://bellatrys.livejournal.com/188910.html" rel="nofollow">fun and games with prisoners and electrodes in Chicago</a>. Did you know there was a <a href="http://bellatrys.livejournal.com/265161.html" rel="nofollow">statute of limitations on torture</a> here? And the [natural, inevitable] followup to it: fun and games with prisoners and electrodes in Chicago.

Did you know there was a statute of limitations on torture here?

]]> By: Nell http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/22/slime-and-defend-vietnam-style/comment-page-1/#comment-169497 Nell Wed, 23 Aug 2006 15:13:11 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/22/slime-and-defend-vietnam-style/#comment-169497 Scott Martens: <i>So why is this story a surprise?</i> Because it goes against the national narrative about why the country goes to war (to spread freedom and democracy) and what our troops do and how "the system works" in the rare, few-bad-apples cases in which they don't act honorably. Those of us who stopped buying that national narrative between 1966 and 1972 thought that the country as a whole had, too. But during the late 1970s and especially the 1980s, it turned out that Americans, indeed, couldn't handle the truth. The successful politicians were those who restored and maintained the old, flattering story. Those of us with functioning memories were branded as "anti-American." Just a bit of discussion on these issues became permissible in the 1990s (for instance, after the files on U.S. involvement in the Pinochet coup and Central American skullduggery were declassified). Then, the September 11 attacks clanged those doors shut again. So most people are surprised by the L.A. Times story, or pretend to be. Or they're not, but they still wish it would go away, and the news of soldiers' and Marines' crimes in Iraq with it. Which would explain the lack of attention to the story. Scott Martens: So why is this story a surprise?

Because it goes against the national narrative about why the country goes to war (to spread freedom and democracy) and what our troops do and how “the system works” in the rare, few-bad-apples cases in which they don’t act honorably.

Those of us who stopped buying that national narrative between 1966 and 1972 thought that the country as a whole had, too. But during the late 1970s and especially the 1980s, it turned out that Americans, indeed, couldn’t handle the truth. The successful politicians were those who restored and maintained the old, flattering story.

Those of us with functioning memories were branded as “anti-American.” Just a bit of discussion on these issues became permissible in the 1990s (for instance, after the files on U.S. involvement in the Pinochet coup and Central American skullduggery were declassified). Then, the September 11 attacks clanged those doors shut again.

So most people are surprised by the L.A. Times story, or pretend to be.

Or they’re not, but they still wish it would go away, and the news of soldiers’ and Marines’ crimes in Iraq with it. Which would explain the lack of attention to the story.

]]> By: glenn http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/22/slime-and-defend-vietnam-style/comment-page-1/#comment-169458 glenn Wed, 23 Aug 2006 10:25:39 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/22/slime-and-defend-vietnam-style/#comment-169458 Christopher, you took the thought out of my (formerly young and naive) mind. Christopher, you took the thought out of my (formerly young and naive) mind.

]]> By: Christopher M http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/22/slime-and-defend-vietnam-style/comment-page-1/#comment-169443 Christopher M Wed, 23 Aug 2006 04:24:22 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/22/slime-and-defend-vietnam-style/#comment-169443 I miss the America that used to exist, if only in my young and naive mind. I miss the America that used to exist, if only in my young and naive mind.

]]> By: Ralph Hitchens http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/22/slime-and-defend-vietnam-style/comment-page-1/#comment-169399 Ralph Hitchens Tue, 22 Aug 2006 19:24:41 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/22/slime-and-defend-vietnam-style/#comment-169399 Col. Tufts was apparently instrumental in pursuing the atrocity allegations within the 101st Airborne Division, which became famous as the "Tiger Force" investigation, publicized by reporters from the Toledo Blade. As I recall, Tufts or one of his successors at CID had kept the files after the Army closed out the investigation, and when he died some years later the files were given (on his instructions) to a Toledo Blade reporter, who passed them on to his colleagues Michael Sallah and Mitch Weiss, who now share a Pulitzer for the series of articles they wrote. They've also just published a book, Tiger Force, summarizing these atrocities. The problem is that despite abundant first-hand testimony conclusively proving that a large number of civilians and VC prisoners were murdered by the "Tiger Force" platoon, my reading of the book (which included extensive quotes from transcripts of the CID interviews) persuaded me that it would have been near-impossible for the Army to have successfully prosecuted anyone. Read the book; your mileage may vary. But there was a big difference between what everyone knows happened and proving something in a courtroom beyond a reasonable doubt. We may see the same situation in the Haditha case. Col. Tufts was apparently instrumental in pursuing the atrocity allegations within the 101st Airborne Division, which became famous as the “Tiger Force” investigation, publicized by reporters from the Toledo Blade. As I recall, Tufts or one of his successors at CID had kept the files after the Army closed out the investigation, and when he died some years later the files were given (on his instructions) to a Toledo Blade reporter, who passed them on to his colleagues Michael Sallah and Mitch Weiss, who now share a Pulitzer for the series of articles they wrote. They’ve also just published a book, Tiger Force, summarizing these atrocities.

The problem is that despite abundant first-hand testimony conclusively proving that a large number of civilians and VC prisoners were murdered by the “Tiger Force” platoon, my reading of the book (which included extensive quotes from transcripts of the CID interviews) persuaded me that it would have been near-impossible for the Army to have successfully prosecuted anyone. Read the book; your mileage may vary. But there was a big difference between what everyone knows happened and proving something in a courtroom beyond a reasonable doubt. We may see the same situation in the Haditha case.

]]> By: Scott Martens http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/22/slime-and-defend-vietnam-style/comment-page-1/#comment-169398 Scott Martens Tue, 22 Aug 2006 19:14:56 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/22/slime-and-defend-vietnam-style/#comment-169398 If a cause is worth killing for, it's certainly worth lying for. I assume that everything that comes from an official military source - of any country - is as far from the truth as circumstances will tolerate. I presume that if you're risking people's lives to win a war, you're surely prepared to suppress any information that might threaten it. I take it for granted that people who place a price on a human life won't hesitate to place a price on someone's reputation. That's certainly rational. Arguably, it's even laudable. So why is this story a surprise? If a cause is worth killing for, it’s certainly worth lying for. I assume that everything that comes from an official military source – of any country – is as far from the truth as circumstances will tolerate. I presume that if you’re risking people’s lives to win a war, you’re surely prepared to suppress any information that might threaten it. I take it for granted that people who place a price on a human life won’t hesitate to place a price on someone’s reputation.

That’s certainly rational. Arguably, it’s even laudable.

So why is this story a surprise?

]]> By: Patrick S. O'Donnell http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/22/slime-and-defend-vietnam-style/comment-page-1/#comment-169395 Patrick S. O'Donnell Tue, 22 Aug 2006 18:57:30 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/22/slime-and-defend-vietnam-style/#comment-169395 Henry, This story follows an earlier one: VIETNAM: THE WAR CRIMES FILES Civilian Killings Went Unpunished Declassified papers show U.S. atrocities went far beyond My Lai. By Nick Turse and Deborah Nelson, Special to The Times August 6, 2006 If you can't access it in their archives, I can send it to you as a Word doc. or post it in the comments section. All the best, Patrick Henry,

This story follows an earlier one:
VIETNAM: THE WAR CRIMES FILES
Civilian Killings Went Unpunished
Declassified papers show U.S. atrocities went far beyond My Lai.
By Nick Turse and Deborah Nelson, Special to The Times
August 6, 2006

If you can’t access it in their archives, I can send it to you as a Word doc. or post it in the comments section.

All the best,
Patrick

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