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	<title>Comments on: Finally!</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/24/finally/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: paperwight</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/24/finally/comment-page-1/#comment-170045</link>
		<dc:creator>paperwight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Aug 2006 21:38:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/24/finally/#comment-170045</guid>
		<description>@ #26:  I know that&#039;s what the makers say, but notice that they say &lt;strong&gt;may&lt;/strong&gt; when referring to that mechanism, because there&#039;s not really any proof of the effect -- it&#039;s speculative.  They&#039;re actually doing themselves more harm than good there, because it gives the &quot;personhood begins at fertilization&quot; crowd a hook to howl about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@ #26:  I know that&#8217;s what the makers say, but notice that they say <strong>may</strong> when referring to that mechanism, because there&#8217;s not really any proof of the effect&#8212;it&#8217;s speculative.  They&#8217;re actually doing themselves more harm than good there, because it gives the &#8220;personhood begins at fertilization&#8221; crowd a hook to howl about.</p>
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		<title>By: dsquared</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/24/finally/comment-page-1/#comment-169899</link>
		<dc:creator>dsquared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:36:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/24/finally/#comment-169899</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;One wonders if those who want unfettered access to abortion pills for minors feel the same way about unfettered access to plastic surgery for girls under 18&lt;/i&gt;

One can wonder all sorts of things.  I, for example, wonder whether people who use the &quot;one wonders&quot; construction for their nasty, fascistic little views think that anyone is fooled as to their general character.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>One wonders if those who want unfettered access to abortion pills for minors feel the same way about unfettered access to plastic surgery for girls under 18</i></p>

	<p>One can wonder all sorts of things.  I, for example, wonder whether people who use the &#8220;one wonders&#8221; construction for their nasty, fascistic little views think that anyone is fooled as to their general character.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Ball</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/24/finally/comment-page-1/#comment-169884</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Ball</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:57:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/24/finally/#comment-169884</guid>
		<description>Re #24 &amp; 25, that&#039;s not what &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.go2planb.com/ForConsumers/AboutPlanB/HowItWorks.aspx&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the makers say&lt;/a&gt; (my boldfacing): 
&lt;blockquote&gt;
Plan B® works like a regular birth control pill. It prevents pregnancy mainly by stopping the release of an egg from the ovary, and may also prevent the fertilization of an egg (the uniting of sperm with the egg). &lt;b&gt;Plan B® may also work by preventing it from attaching to the uterus (womb).&lt;/b&gt; It is important to know that Plan B® will not affect a fertilized egg &lt;b&gt;already attached to the uterus&lt;/b&gt;; it will not affect an existing pregnancy. 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The ICCR animal studies that #24 refers to cast doubt on Barr&#039;s claims that Plan B may stop implantation, which is too bad, because if someone ovulated prior to intercourse, standard contraception failed, and fertilization occurred before she took Plan B, then she&#039;ll have to go to RU-486 instead. 

But no one addressed the autonomy issues -- we&#039;re still in the pro/anti-abortion/contrapception rhetoric zone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Re #24 &#038; 25, that&#8217;s not what <a href="http://www.go2planb.com/ForConsumers/AboutPlanB/HowItWorks.aspx" rel="nofollow">the makers say</a> (my boldfacing):<br />
<blockquote><br />
Plan B&#174; works like a regular birth control pill. It prevents pregnancy mainly by stopping the release of an egg from the ovary, and may also prevent the fertilization of an egg (the uniting of sperm with the egg). <b>Plan B&#174; may also work by preventing it from attaching to the uterus (womb).</b> It is important to know that Plan B&#174; will not affect a fertilized egg <b>already attached to the uterus</b>; it will not affect an existing pregnancy.<br />
</blockquote></p>

	<p>The <span class="caps">ICCR</span> animal studies that #24 refers to cast doubt on Barr&#8217;s claims that Plan B may stop implantation, which is too bad, because if someone ovulated prior to intercourse, standard contraception failed, and fertilization occurred before she took Plan B, then she&#8217;ll have to go to RU-486 instead.</p>

	<p>But no one addressed the autonomy issues&#8212;we&#8217;re still in the pro/anti-abortion/contrapception rhetoric zone.</p>
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		<title>By: eudoxis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/24/finally/comment-page-1/#comment-169877</link>
		<dc:creator>eudoxis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:51:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/24/finally/#comment-169877</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Plan B does not just prevent ovulation and fertilization but it will also function by preventing implantation, so the fertilized egg will go silently screaming away for anti-abortionists&lt;/i&gt;

No, absoluteley not.  Plan B, or levonorgestrel acts prefertilization and has no effect post-fertilization.  That&#039;s why it has to be taken within 72 hours.  Many people confuse Plan B with Mifepristone or RU486, which is an anti-progestone with a different mechanism of action.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Plan B does not just prevent ovulation and fertilization but it will also function by preventing implantation, so the fertilized egg will go silently screaming away for anti-abortionists</i></p>

	<p>No, absoluteley not.  Plan B, or levonorgestrel acts prefertilization and has no effect post-fertilization.  That&#8217;s why it has to be taken within 72 hours.  Many people confuse Plan B with Mifepristone or <span class="caps">RU486</span>, which is an anti-progestone with a different mechanism of action.</p>
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		<title>By: paperwight</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/24/finally/comment-page-1/#comment-169867</link>
		<dc:creator>paperwight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Aug 2006 05:00:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/24/finally/#comment-169867</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;(Re the ‘abortion pill’ v. contrapception issue, Plan B does not just prevent ovulation and fertilization but it will also function by preventing implantation, so the fertilized egg will go silently screaming away for anti-abortionists).&lt;/i&gt;

My understanding is that there&#039;s no evidence for this either way.

For example:  http://www.popcouncil.org/publications/popbriefs/pb11(2)_3.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>(Re the &#8216;abortion pill&#8217; v. contrapception issue, Plan B does not just prevent ovulation and fertilization but it will also function by preventing implantation, so the fertilized egg will go silently screaming away for anti-abortionists).</i></p>

	<p>My understanding is that there&#8217;s no evidence for this either way.</p>

	<p>For example:  <a href="http://www.popcouncil.org/publications/popbriefs/pb11(2)_3.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.popcouncil.org/publications/popbriefs/pb11(2)_3.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Ball</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/24/finally/comment-page-1/#comment-169865</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Ball</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Aug 2006 04:45:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/24/finally/#comment-169865</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m glad Plan-B is available but I&#039;m waiting for someone to respond to the substance of #11 because there are important issues of autonomy at stake. California reintroduced a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.aroundthecapitol.com/billtrack/text.html?file=ab_646_bill_20050831_enrolled.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;ban on body-piercing&lt;/a&gt; without parental consent (except for ears) in 2006. I&#039;m unclear on why minors should be denied medical autonomy in one case but allowed it in another. Are denials of medical autonomy to minors in body-piercing, plastic surgery, abortion, and emergency contraception all wrong, or are some denials permissible and others prohibited? I&#039;m asking this not in legal terms, but in philosophical terms. Put differently, should a 16-year old be able to consent to a  hymen restoration surgery or breast augmentation? If not, why?

(Re the &#039;abortion pill&#039; v. contrapception issue, Plan B does not just prevent ovulation and fertilization but it will also function by preventing implantation, so the fertilized egg will go silently screaming away for anti-abortionists).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m glad Plan-B is available but I&#8217;m waiting for someone to respond to the substance of #11 because there are important issues of autonomy at stake. California reintroduced a <a href="http://www.aroundthecapitol.com/billtrack/text.html?file=ab_646_bill_20050831_enrolled.html" rel="nofollow">ban on body-piercing</a> without parental consent (except for ears) in 2006. I&#8217;m unclear on why minors should be denied medical autonomy in one case but allowed it in another. Are denials of medical autonomy to minors in body-piercing, plastic surgery, abortion, and emergency contraception all wrong, or are some denials permissible and others prohibited? I&#8217;m asking this not in legal terms, but in philosophical terms. Put differently, should a 16-year old be able to consent to a  hymen restoration surgery or breast augmentation? If not, why?</p>

	<p>(Re the &#8216;abortion pill&#8217; v. contrapception issue, Plan B does not just prevent ovulation and fertilization but it will also function by preventing implantation, so the fertilized egg will go silently screaming away for anti-abortionists).</p>
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		<title>By: SamChevre</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/24/finally/comment-page-1/#comment-169814</link>
		<dc:creator>SamChevre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Aug 2006 19:18:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/24/finally/#comment-169814</guid>
		<description>Eszter,

Was that because they were in the women&#039;s bathrooms?  Condom dispensers are extremely common in men&#039;s bathrooms in the US in my experience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Eszter,</p>

	<p>Was that because they were in the women&#8217;s bathrooms?  Condom dispensers are extremely common in men&#8217;s bathrooms in the US in my experience.</p>
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		<title>By: Eszter</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/24/finally/comment-page-1/#comment-169801</link>
		<dc:creator>Eszter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Aug 2006 18:05:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/24/finally/#comment-169801</guid>
		<description>Re condom vending machines, at the Am Soc Assn meetings in Montreal a couple of weeks ago, I felt that the presence of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.flickr.com/photos/eszter/223581948/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;condom vending machines&lt;/a&gt; in the bathrooms at the convention center was a quick reminder that one was not in the US.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Re condom vending machines, at the Am Soc Assn meetings in Montreal a couple of weeks ago, I felt that the presence of <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/eszter/223581948/" rel="nofollow">condom vending machines</a> in the bathrooms at the convention center was a quick reminder that one was not in the US.</p>
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		<title>By: eudoxis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/24/finally/comment-page-1/#comment-169739</link>
		<dc:creator>eudoxis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Aug 2006 14:08:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/24/finally/#comment-169739</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s a little confusing to say that teenagers under the age of 18 are more likely to need emergency contraception.  Presumably, one means to say that the social outcomes for a pregnancy in an adolescent under 18 is much worse than for older women.  But the likelyhood of needing contraception is related to the unintended pregnancy rate of adolescents under 18, which is considerably lower for that age group than that at 18 or over.  The majority of pregancies in teens or adolescents occurs in the 18-19 year age group.  (The social travesty associated with that is questionable - it&#039;s biologically healthier to have children at that age.)  

That said, IMO, there should be vending machines with condoms and emergency contraception on street corners.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It&#8217;s a little confusing to say that teenagers under the age of 18 are more likely to need emergency contraception.  Presumably, one means to say that the social outcomes for a pregnancy in an adolescent under 18 is much worse than for older women.  But the likelyhood of needing contraception is related to the unintended pregnancy rate of adolescents under 18, which is considerably lower for that age group than that at 18 or over.  The majority of pregancies in teens or adolescents occurs in the 18-19 year age group.  (The social travesty associated with that is questionable &#8211; it&#8217;s biologically healthier to have children at that age.)</p>

	<p>That said, <span class="caps">IMO</span>, there should be vending machines with condoms and emergency contraception on street corners.</p>
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		<title>By: Another Damned Medievalist</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/24/finally/comment-page-1/#comment-169731</link>
		<dc:creator>Another Damned Medievalist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:03:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/24/finally/#comment-169731</guid>
		<description>it&#039;s better than nothing.  Really.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>it&#8217;s better than nothing.  Really.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/24/finally/comment-page-1/#comment-169725</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Aug 2006 10:43:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/24/finally/#comment-169725</guid>
		<description>What Alice said. It seems that the age restriction and especially price puts it outside of the reach of maybe 70-80% of those who would&#039;ve benefited most. So, it&#039;s nothing but a travesty, isn&#039;t it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What Alice said. It seems that the age restriction and especially price puts it outside of the reach of maybe 70-80% of those who would&#8217;ve benefited most. So, it&#8217;s nothing but a travesty, isn&#8217;t it.</p>
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		<title>By: Eszter</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/24/finally/comment-page-1/#comment-169707</link>
		<dc:creator>Eszter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Aug 2006 05:37:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/24/finally/#comment-169707</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I believe the announcement said that they wouldn’t actually have any means of enforcing the age restriction&lt;/i&gt;

Actually, as I noted in a comment above, access to the pill is going to require a government ID so that is a way they are going to try to enforce the age restriction.

While it&#039;s possible that people may gain access through older acquaintances, don&#039;t forget that it may not be that easy for a 16-year-old to tell her parents about this. Moreover, timing is an important issue with the pill, and the need for having to look for an older friend won&#039;t help the efficiency of the contraceptive. Plus is it so obvious that in certain communities just any 18-year-old friend would want to take it upon themselves to go and claim the need for this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I believe the announcement said that they wouldn&#8217;t actually have any means of enforcing the age restriction</i></p>

	<p>Actually, as I noted in a comment above, access to the pill is going to require a government ID so that is a way they are going to try to enforce the age restriction.</p>

	<p>While it&#8217;s possible that people may gain access through older acquaintances, don&#8217;t forget that it may not be that easy for a 16-year-old to tell her parents about this. Moreover, timing is an important issue with the pill, and the need for having to look for an older friend won&#8217;t help the efficiency of the contraceptive. Plus is it so obvious that in certain communities just any 18-year-old friend would want to take it upon themselves to go and claim the need for this?</p>
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		<title>By: Uncle Kvetch</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/24/finally/comment-page-1/#comment-169698</link>
		<dc:creator>Uncle Kvetch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Aug 2006 02:56:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/24/finally/#comment-169698</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;One wonders if those who want unfettered access to abortion pills for minors feel the same way about unfettered access to plastic surgery for girls under 18&lt;/i&gt;

One also wonders what kind of political agenda lies behind the use of terms like &quot;abortion pills&quot; to describe a form of contraception.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>One wonders if those who want unfettered access to abortion pills for minors feel the same way about unfettered access to plastic surgery for girls under 18</i></p>

	<p>One also wonders what kind of political agenda lies behind the use of terms like &#8220;abortion pills&#8221; to describe a form of contraception.</p>
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		<title>By: Alice</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/24/finally/comment-page-1/#comment-169697</link>
		<dc:creator>Alice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Aug 2006 02:54:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/24/finally/#comment-169697</guid>
		<description>What I would like to see...women in the 50+ age bracket going in and buying Plan B to hoard for their daughters, granddaughters, nieces, etc. After all, there is no upper age limit...what can they say? I think it would be a fun way to underline the absurdity of denying Plan B to the very ones who are most likely to need it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What I would like to see&#8230;women in the 50+ age bracket going in and buying Plan B to hoard for their daughters, granddaughters, nieces, etc. After all, there is no upper age limit&#8230;what can they say? I think it would be a fun way to underline the absurdity of denying Plan B to the very ones who are most likely to need it.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/24/finally/comment-page-1/#comment-169690</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Aug 2006 00:37:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/24/finally/#comment-169690</guid>
		<description>Yeah it&#039;s going to be impossible for 16 and 17 year old kids because they know no one over 18, and thus have no friends or family to help get the pills for them.

Just like cigarettes! I&#039;ve never seen 16 year olds smoking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yeah it&#8217;s going to be impossible for 16 and 17 year old kids because they know no one over 18, and thus have no friends or family to help get the pills for them.</p>

	<p>Just like cigarettes! I&#8217;ve never seen 16 year olds smoking.</p>
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