Comments on: The Idea of a European Superstate: Military power and soft power http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/31/the-idea-of-a-european-superstate-military-power-and-soft-power/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Mon, 13 Feb 2012 09:49:20 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Oskar Shapley http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/31/the-idea-of-a-european-superstate-military-power-and-soft-power/comment-page-1/#comment-170634 Oskar Shapley Fri, 01 Sep 2006 15:44:20 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/31/the-idea-of-a-european-superstate-military-power-and-soft-power/#comment-170634 The problem with the US is that it has internalized the self-image of an empire too much. And by "it" I mean the intellectual/pundit elites. The honor of a non-imperial state is not tarnished if it prefers to use soft power or negotiates without threatening to become violent. An empire on the other hand demands and must not politely ask for. That would go against its reputation. Why negotiate if bombing is so much more fun? The problem with the US is that it has internalized the self-image of an empire too much. And by “it” I mean the intellectual/pundit elites. The honor of a non-imperial state is not tarnished if it prefers to use soft power or negotiates without threatening to become violent.

An empire on the other hand demands and must not politely ask for. That would go against its reputation. Why negotiate if bombing is so much more fun?

]]> By: Jim Harrison http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/31/the-idea-of-a-european-superstate-military-power-and-soft-power/comment-page-1/#comment-170544 Jim Harrison Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:18:41 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/31/the-idea-of-a-european-superstate-military-power-and-soft-power/#comment-170544 The track record of aggressive military powers over the last couple of centuries cannot be encouraging to fans of the Bush administration. The tub thumpers tend to win battles and lose wars. Maybe the important difference between America and Europe is not that the one pursues hard power and the other soft, but that the Americans have become votaries of Ares while the Europeans honor Athena. A region that is far too powerful to attack but which is no threat to others is bound to be more appealing than a declining superpower attempting to maintain its primacy by engaging in "preventive" wars against minor powers. The track record of aggressive military powers over the last couple of centuries cannot be encouraging to fans of the Bush administration. The tub thumpers tend to win battles and lose wars. Maybe the important difference between America and Europe is not that the one pursues hard power and the other soft, but that the Americans have become votaries of Ares while the Europeans honor Athena. A region that is far too powerful to attack but which is no threat to others is bound to be more appealing than a declining superpower attempting to maintain its primacy by engaging in “preventive” wars against minor powers.

]]> By: John Quiggin http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/31/the-idea-of-a-european-superstate-military-power-and-soft-power/comment-page-1/#comment-170537 John Quiggin Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:19:13 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/31/the-idea-of-a-european-superstate-military-power-and-soft-power/#comment-170537 "wonder if you would support offering eventual membership to the whole Mediterranean basin, following the fulfilment of the Copenhagen criteria, with Europe Agreement style FTAs as the first stage? That might take decades for many of these countries, but the marker would have been planted." I would - my reference to membership or close association includes the idea of an eventual transition from association to membership. I wrote a bit about this <a href="http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2002/10/25/the-united-states-of-europe/" rel="nofollow">here</a>. “wonder if you would support offering eventual membership to the whole Mediterranean basin, following the fulfilment of the Copenhagen criteria, with Europe Agreement style FTAs as the first stage? That might take decades for many of these countries, but the marker would have been planted.”

I would – my reference to membership or close association includes the idea of an eventual transition from association to membership. I wrote a bit about this here.

]]> By: a http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/31/the-idea-of-a-european-superstate-military-power-and-soft-power/comment-page-1/#comment-170533 a Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:57:10 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/31/the-idea-of-a-european-superstate-military-power-and-soft-power/#comment-170533 Might I suggest that the successes of soft power come because there has also been hard power (or the threat of it), and the successes of hard power have come when soft power has been used as well? That is, one shouldn't get caught up in a soft power vs hard power argument; it's more that one should have both, and be wise enough to see when one needs to use one, when the other. Might I suggest that the successes of soft power come because there has also been hard power (or the threat of it), and the successes of hard power have come when soft power has been used as well? That is, one shouldn’t get caught up in a soft power vs hard power argument; it’s more that one should have both, and be wise enough to see when one needs to use one, when the other.

]]> By: otto http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/31/the-idea-of-a-european-superstate-military-power-and-soft-power/comment-page-1/#comment-170528 otto Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:04:51 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/31/the-idea-of-a-european-superstate-military-power-and-soft-power/#comment-170528 "By contrast, with the important exception of the former Yugoslavia, European soft power, particularly as embodied in the lure of eventual membership has been exceptionally successful in promoting both a democratic transition in Eastern Europe and the peaceful resolution of many territorial disputes left unresolved through the Cold War." I wonder if you would support offering eventual membership to the whole Mediterranean basin, following the fulfilment of the Copenhagen criteria, with Europe Agreement style FTAs as the first stage? That might take decades for many of these countries, but the marker would have been planted. “By contrast, with the important exception of the former Yugoslavia, European soft power, particularly as embodied in the lure of eventual membership has been exceptionally successful in promoting both a democratic transition in Eastern Europe and the peaceful resolution of many territorial disputes left unresolved through the Cold War.”

I wonder if you would support offering eventual membership to the whole Mediterranean basin, following the fulfilment of the Copenhagen criteria, with Europe Agreement style FTAs as the first stage? That might take decades for many of these countries, but the marker would have been planted.

]]> By: glenn http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/31/the-idea-of-a-european-superstate-military-power-and-soft-power/comment-page-1/#comment-170521 glenn Thu, 31 Aug 2006 14:39:51 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/31/the-idea-of-a-european-superstate-military-power-and-soft-power/#comment-170521 What about Libya? There's a potential success story here, and I think arguments could made for both Soft Power and Hard Power (and a combination of both)...or of course, it could just have alot of untapped oil, and because of that, we're being forgiving. What about Libya? There’s a potential success story here, and I think arguments could made for both Soft Power and Hard Power (and a combination of both)…or of course, it could just have alot of untapped oil, and because of that, we’re being forgiving.

]]> By: Martin Bento http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/31/the-idea-of-a-european-superstate-military-power-and-soft-power/comment-page-1/#comment-170520 Martin Bento Thu, 31 Aug 2006 14:37:36 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/31/the-idea-of-a-european-superstate-military-power-and-soft-power/#comment-170520 Maybe an expansive definition of soft power is desirable. After all, if hard power is just the threat of carnage and soft power just the glow of prestige, what is economic pressure? Lumpy power? Maybe an expansive definition of soft power is desirable. After all, if hard power is just the threat of carnage and soft power just the glow of prestige, what is economic pressure? Lumpy power?

]]> By: Henry http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/31/the-idea-of-a-european-superstate-military-power-and-soft-power/comment-page-1/#comment-170516 Henry Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:58:39 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/31/the-idea-of-a-european-superstate-military-power-and-soft-power/#comment-170516 Dan - absolutely fair; I was using soft power in the sense that it's being used in this argument (i.e. so that it includes the use of more direct incentives such as EU membership to change behaviour). Dan – absolutely fair; I was using soft power in the sense that it’s being used in this argument (i.e. so that it includes the use of more direct incentives such as EU membership to change behaviour).

]]> By: Daniel Nexon http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/31/the-idea-of-a-european-superstate-military-power-and-soft-power/comment-page-1/#comment-170514 Daniel Nexon Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:46:14 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/31/the-idea-of-a-european-superstate-military-power-and-soft-power/#comment-170514 Henry's point is well taken, but these <i>aren't necessarily examples of soft power</i>. Soft power uses, according to Nye, an actor's "attractiveness" to "persuade" others to change their policies. A terribly fuzzy -- pardon the pun -- concept that we should not, I think, use as a catch-all for non-military forms of influence, whether they involve other sources of persuasion, the use of economic incentives, institutional binding, and so forth. Henry’s point is well taken, but these aren’t necessarily examples of soft power. Soft power uses, according to Nye, an actor’s “attractiveness” to “persuade” others to change their policies. A terribly fuzzy—pardon the pun—concept that we should not, I think, use as a catch-all for non-military forms of influence, whether they involve other sources of persuasion, the use of economic incentives, institutional binding, and so forth.

]]> By: Henry http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/31/the-idea-of-a-european-superstate-military-power-and-soft-power/comment-page-1/#comment-170512 Henry Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:40:53 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/31/the-idea-of-a-european-superstate-military-power-and-soft-power/#comment-170512 Sebastian, I'm sorry but you're talking smack. Any account of the changes in Central and Eastern Europe during and after the fall of the Berlin Wall which didn't refer to soft power would be missing the major part of the story. First through the CSCE/OSCE, which played a major role in preventing secession and Russian intervention in Latvia and Estonia. Then through the EU and the Copenhagen Criteria which defused potentially very nasty issues with Hungary's minority population in other countries etc. If it weren't for soft power, Central and Eastern Europe would look very different today, and much nastier - the experience of Yugoslavia would have been repeated on a much wider scale, and Russia would have succeeded in drawing back some countries into its sphere of influence which had successfully escaped this. The findings of people who've studied this, myself included, are pretty unanimous. This may not agree with your priors - but it's a matter of historical record. Nobody is denying that hard power has consequences, least of all John. But your contention that soft power is merely a form of 'acquiescence' flies in the face of what we know about what happened on the ground. Sebastian, I’m sorry but you’re talking smack. Any account of the changes in Central and Eastern Europe during and after the fall of the Berlin Wall which didn’t refer to soft power would be missing the major part of the story. First through the CSCE/OSCE, which played a major role in preventing secession and Russian intervention in Latvia and Estonia. Then through the EU and the Copenhagen Criteria which defused potentially very nasty issues with Hungary’s minority population in other countries etc. If it weren’t for soft power, Central and Eastern Europe would look very different today, and much nastier – the experience of Yugoslavia would have been repeated on a much wider scale, and Russia would have succeeded in drawing back some countries into its sphere of influence which had successfully escaped this. The findings of people who’ve studied this, myself included, are pretty unanimous. This may not agree with your priors – but it’s a matter of historical record. Nobody is denying that hard power has consequences, least of all John. But your contention that soft power is merely a form of ‘acquiescence’ flies in the face of what we know about what happened on the ground.

]]> By: james http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/31/the-idea-of-a-european-superstate-military-power-and-soft-power/comment-page-1/#comment-170509 james Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:29:01 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/31/the-idea-of-a-european-superstate-military-power-and-soft-power/#comment-170509 The very fact that there is a North and South Korea proves the effectiveness of "hard power". As for Bosnia and Kososvo, EU leaders are on record as stating that it was a failure for the EU and proved that they where still reliant on the US. The EU and UN failed for several years before the US invovlement. The US did not want to commit ground troups to another European War and suddenly everyone is claiming they did nothing. The very fact that there is a North and South Korea proves the effectiveness of “hard power”.

As for Bosnia and Kososvo, EU leaders are on record as stating that it was a failure for the EU and proved that they where still reliant on the US. The EU and UN failed for several years before the US invovlement. The US did not want to commit ground troups to another European War and suddenly everyone is claiming they did nothing.

]]> By: Alex http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/31/the-idea-of-a-european-superstate-military-power-and-soft-power/comment-page-1/#comment-170507 Alex Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:47:00 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/31/the-idea-of-a-european-superstate-military-power-and-soft-power/#comment-170507 Or, in a shorter version: <em>if you don't do the washing up, eventually you'll get typhoid.</em> Or, in a shorter version: if you don’t do the washing up, eventually you’ll get typhoid.

]]> By: Alex http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/31/the-idea-of-a-european-superstate-military-power-and-soft-power/comment-page-1/#comment-170506 Alex Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:44:29 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/31/the-idea-of-a-european-superstate-military-power-and-soft-power/#comment-170506 And in what bizarre framework of reference was it "not effective"? There were no weapons of mass destruction, Sebastian - it's time to let go! Further, the meme that "The US cooks and Europe washes up" was thin stuff even in its late 90s heyday. In Bosnia, for example, the bulk of the eventual IFOR was actually composed of British and French troops. The artillery and armour that compelled the Serbs to retreat from Sarajevo belonged to the British Army's 24 Airmobile Brigade plus an armoured battlegroup based on the Cheshire Regiment (I think), and the French Foreign Legion, under the command of the British general Rupert Smith. A lot of the air cover came from British Sea Harriers operating off the <em>Ark Royal</em> and French Mirage-2000s in southern Italy. For Kosovo, most of the airpower was drawn from the USAF, but again, when it came to put some skin in the game and generate forces for Option B-Minus, the planned "noncompliant entry" into Kosovo, it was the British and German armies who forked out. More recently, it's become more accurate to say that the US bursts into the kitchen like Biffa Bacon after 15 pints of wifebeater, tries to cook chips, slashes itself chopping the spuds, breaks the crockery, sets the curtains on fire, keeps trying to cook the chips, realises the kitchen is on fire, throws the pan through the window, misses, spilling burning lard all over the place, tries again, this time smashes the window successfully, burns itself, then collapses in a pool of tears and urine at the bottom of the stairs, alternately begging the Europeans to get up and clean up the mess and threatening to spank them like the little sluts they are. It's not pretty. Perhaps if we point and jeer enough eventually he'll realise what a sorry spectacle he's making of himself. And in what bizarre framework of reference was it “not effective”? There were no weapons of mass destruction, Sebastian – it’s time to let go!

Further, the meme that “The US cooks and Europe washes up” was thin stuff even in its late 90s heyday. In Bosnia, for example, the bulk of the eventual IFOR was actually composed of British and French troops. The artillery and armour that compelled the Serbs to retreat from Sarajevo belonged to the British Army’s 24 Airmobile Brigade plus an armoured battlegroup based on the Cheshire Regiment (I think), and the French Foreign Legion, under the command of the British general Rupert Smith. A lot of the air cover came from British Sea Harriers operating off the Ark Royal and French Mirage-2000s in southern Italy.

For Kosovo, most of the airpower was drawn from the USAF, but again, when it came to put some skin in the game and generate forces for Option B-Minus, the planned “noncompliant entry” into Kosovo, it was the British and German armies who forked out.

More recently, it’s become more accurate to say that the US bursts into the kitchen like Biffa Bacon after 15 pints of wifebeater, tries to cook chips, slashes itself chopping the spuds, breaks the crockery, sets the curtains on fire, keeps trying to cook the chips, realises the kitchen is on fire, throws the pan through the window, misses, spilling burning lard all over the place, tries again, this time smashes the window successfully, burns itself, then collapses in a pool of tears and urine at the bottom of the stairs, alternately begging the Europeans to get up and clean up the mess and threatening to spank them like the little sluts they are.

It’s not pretty. Perhaps if we point and jeer enough eventually he’ll realise what a sorry spectacle he’s making of himself.

]]> By: bad Jim http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/31/the-idea-of-a-european-superstate-military-power-and-soft-power/comment-page-1/#comment-170505 bad Jim Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:18:25 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/31/the-idea-of-a-european-superstate-military-power-and-soft-power/#comment-170505 Would a stronger Europe make a Basque nation possible? Would a common economic policy, a bigger army, a shared nuclear deterrent, make Catalonia or Wales viable independent entities? Would a stronger Europe make a Basque nation possible? Would a common economic policy, a bigger army, a shared nuclear deterrent, make Catalonia or Wales viable independent entities?

]]> By: Elliott Oti http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/31/the-idea-of-a-european-superstate-military-power-and-soft-power/comment-page-1/#comment-170503 Elliott Oti Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:06:10 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/31/the-idea-of-a-european-superstate-military-power-and-soft-power/#comment-170503 <i>Iran, North Korea and Syria are not failures of soft power?</i> What 'soft power'? North Korea, possibly. Iran and Syria? Mossadegh's removal, the proximate cause of today's troubles, and the entire low-intensity conflict between the US and Iran since 1979, represents a failure of 'hard power', and the continuous stream of belligerence directed at Syria the past 5 years has been neither 'soft' nor productive. In particular, it is irritating to have to read screeds from you, Sebastian, decrying the fact that this or that 'soft' measure has failed to achieve the (invariably) militaristic outcome that you personally consider optimal. If your goal is to see thousands of dead Iranian civilians then no, 'soft power' won't accomplish any of that. You may regard that as a signal failure of 'soft policy'; others regard that as a plus. Iran, North Korea and Syria are not failures of soft power?

What ‘soft power’? North Korea, possibly. Iran and Syria? Mossadegh’s removal, the proximate cause of today’s troubles, and the entire low-intensity conflict between the US and Iran since 1979, represents a failure of ‘hard power’, and the continuous stream of belligerence directed at Syria the past 5 years has been neither ‘soft’ nor productive.

In particular, it is irritating to have to read screeds from you, Sebastian, decrying the fact that this or that ‘soft’ measure has failed to achieve the (invariably) militaristic outcome that you personally consider optimal. If your goal is to see thousands of dead Iranian civilians then no, ‘soft power’ won’t accomplish any of that. You may regard that as a signal failure of ‘soft policy’; others regard that as a plus.

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