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	<title>Comments on: Little Green Lines</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/15/little-green-lines/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Anderson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/15/little-green-lines/comment-page-2/#comment-172300</link>
		<dc:creator>Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Sep 2006 16:46:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/15/little-green-lines/#comment-172300</guid>
		<description>After a weekend away from the computer ...

&lt;i&gt;Singular “their” is OK - or at least it was OK for Jane Austen and Shakespeare.&lt;/i&gt;

This assumes that Austen and Shakespeare are infallible, and that the rules governing their usage govern today.  Spell &quot;choose&quot; as &quot;chuse&quot; and you will get marked off.

As for &quot;Everybody wanted to keep on dancing.  They said ...&quot;, the problem doesn&#039;t arise, because it&#039;s not just one person speaking.

As for the KJV, one has to allow for scribal errors, no?  And in any event, Nietzsche already hit this one:  &quot;It was subtle of God to learn Greek when he decided to become an author -- and not to learn it better.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>After a weekend away from the computer &#8230;</p>

	<p><i>Singular &#8220;their&#8221; is <span class="caps">OK </span>- or at least it was OK for Jane Austen and Shakespeare.</i></p>

	<p>This assumes that Austen and Shakespeare are infallible, and that the rules governing their usage govern today.  Spell &#8220;choose&#8221; as &#8220;chuse&#8221; and you will get marked off.</p>

	<p>As for &#8220;Everybody wanted to keep on dancing.  They said &#8230;&#8221;, the problem doesn&#8217;t arise, because it&#8217;s not just one person speaking.</p>

	<p>As for the <span class="caps">KJV</span>, one has to allow for scribal errors, no?  And in any event, Nietzsche already hit this one:  &#8220;It was subtle of God to learn Greek when he decided to become an author&#8212;and not to learn it better.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: vitia &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Responding to Error</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/15/little-green-lines/comment-page-2/#comment-172220</link>
		<dc:creator>vitia &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Responding to Error</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Sep 2006 19:13:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/15/little-green-lines/#comment-172220</guid>
		<description>[...] I&#8217;d be curious to hear how Yagoda might respond to the now-canonical Joseph Williams article on &#8220;The Phenomenology of Error&#8221; (CCC 32.2, May 1981), Richard Haswell&#8217;s &#8220;Minimal Marking&#8221; (CE 45.6, October 1983), or Connors and Lunsford&#8217;s &#8220;Frequency of Formal Errors in Current College Writing&#8221; (CCC 39.4, December 1988). I&#8217;ve shared these pieces of scholarship and their range of perspectives with my new colleagues, and there&#8217;s been some interesting discussion. And at my new institution, we&#8217;re blessed with an abundance of technological resources, so this recent Crooked Timber post by Harry Brighouse caught my eye. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] I&#8217;d be curious to hear how Yagoda might respond to the now-canonical Joseph Williams article on &#8220;The Phenomenology of Error&#8221; (CCC 32.2, May 1981), Richard Haswell&#8217;s &#8220;Minimal Marking&#8221; (CE 45.6, October 1983), or Connors and Lunsford&#8217;s &#8220;Frequency of Formal Errors in Current College Writing&#8221; (CCC 39.4, December 1988). I&#8217;ve shared these pieces of scholarship and their range of perspectives with my new colleagues, and there&#8217;s been some interesting discussion. And at my new institution, we&#8217;re blessed with an abundance of technological resources, so this recent Crooked Timber post by Harry Brighouse caught my eye. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Hollo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/15/little-green-lines/comment-page-2/#comment-172205</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Hollo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Sep 2006 06:17:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/15/little-green-lines/#comment-172205</guid>
		<description>And what&#039;s more, the grammar checker often wrongly characterises sentences as being in the passive voice when they&#039;re not, for the same reason that it gets confused about case matching and so forth. And many of its punctuation rules are positively archaic, as also mentioned above.

I think the main problem is that while it may bring up the standard of the really bad papers, it will also tend to mediocritise the decently-written stuff; and what&#039;s more, because it&#039;s so misleading and so often incorrect, it won&#039;t teach the bad students anything much at all, while confusing those who do have some idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>And what&#8217;s more, the grammar checker often wrongly characterises sentences as being in the passive voice when they&#8217;re not, for the same reason that it gets confused about case matching and so forth. And many of its punctuation rules are positively archaic, as also mentioned above.</p>

	<p>I think the main problem is that while it may bring up the standard of the really bad papers, it will also tend to mediocritise the decently-written stuff; and what&#8217;s more, because it&#8217;s so misleading and so often incorrect, it won&#8217;t teach the bad students anything much at all, while confusing those who do have some idea.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Hollo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/15/little-green-lines/comment-page-2/#comment-172204</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Hollo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Sep 2006 06:13:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/15/little-green-lines/#comment-172204</guid>
		<description>Too right! The passive voice is useful, and can even be essential, in technical writing, scientific writing, philosophy, and plenty of other areas. It can, indeed, often be &lt;i&gt;more&lt;/i&gt; precise. Word&#039;s insistence on flagging every passive construction in a document is one reason to turn the grammar checker off, along with the other problems mentioned above.

FWIW, speaking as someone with a fair bit of editing experience, Word&#039;s grammar checker, and even its spell checker often, are the first things any copyeditor I know turns off when installing the program &#8212; along with most of its irritating auto-correct and auto-formatting features. The grammar checker is far too inaccurate and misleading to let loose on first-year uni students! Please don&#039;t ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Too right! The passive voice is useful, and can even be essential, in technical writing, scientific writing, philosophy, and plenty of other areas. It can, indeed, often be <i>more</i> precise. Word&#8217;s insistence on flagging every passive construction in a document is one reason to turn the grammar checker off, along with the other problems mentioned above.</p>

	<p><span class="caps">FWIW</span>, speaking as someone with a fair bit of editing experience, Word&#8217;s grammar checker, and even its spell checker often, are the first things any copyeditor I know turns off when installing the program &mdash; along with most of its irritating auto-correct and auto-formatting features. The grammar checker is far too inaccurate and misleading to let loose on first-year uni students! Please don&#8217;t ;)</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/15/little-green-lines/comment-page-2/#comment-172198</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Sep 2006 04:10:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/15/little-green-lines/#comment-172198</guid>
		<description>Oh, pooh!, &quot;bemused&quot;. 

We all know that passives can be misused. We just don&#039;t think that every single one should be flagged, as MS Word does.

&quot;Defenses of writing in the passive&quot; -- why, isn&#039;t that moral equivalence and relativism? Lord save us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oh, pooh!, &#8220;bemused&#8221;.</p>

	<p>We all know that passives can be misused. We just don&#8217;t think that every single one should be flagged, as <span class="caps">MS </span>Word does.</p>

	<p>&#8220;Defenses of writing in the passive&#8221;&#8212;why, isn&#8217;t that moral equivalence and relativism? Lord save us.</p>
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		<title>By: bemused</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/15/little-green-lines/comment-page-2/#comment-172193</link>
		<dc:creator>bemused</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Sep 2006 01:16:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/15/little-green-lines/#comment-172193</guid>
		<description>It amuses me to see the defenses of writing in the passive voice in formal writing in previous comments --suggesting that it is necessary or desirable.  While it is often difficult to find a way to rephrase formal writing to use the active voice while avoiding the first person, it invariably pays off in concision and in answering the reader&#039;s questions that would arise in reading the passive voice form.  Yes, I use Word&#039;s squiggley green lines as a reminder.  I don&#039;t slavishly remove every one, and I don&#039;t take the advice of the grammar checker, or even read it.  But I believe it tightens up my writing to remove the green.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It amuses me to see the defenses of writing in the passive voice in formal writing in previous comments&#8212;suggesting that it is necessary or desirable.  While it is often difficult to find a way to rephrase formal writing to use the active voice while avoiding the first person, it invariably pays off in concision and in answering the reader&#8217;s questions that would arise in reading the passive voice form.  Yes, I use Word&#8217;s squiggley green lines as a reminder.  I don&#8217;t slavishly remove every one, and I don&#8217;t take the advice of the grammar checker, or even read it.  But I believe it tightens up my writing to remove the green.</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/15/little-green-lines/comment-page-2/#comment-172174</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Sep 2006 16:55:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/15/little-green-lines/#comment-172174</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Singular “their” is OK - or at least it was OK for Jane Austen and Shakespeare.&lt;/i&gt;

It was also good enough for God.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/%7Emyl/languagelog/archives/003572.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;Singular they&quot;: God said it, I believe it, that settles it&lt;/a&gt;. [Language Log]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Singular &#8220;their&#8221; is <span class="caps">OK </span>- or at least it was OK for Jane Austen and Shakespeare.</i></p>

	<p>It was also good enough for God.</p>

	<p><a href="http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/%7Emyl/languagelog/archives/003572.html" rel="nofollow">&#8220;Singular they&#8221;: God said it, I believe it, that settles it</a>. [Language Log]</p>
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		<title>By: cf</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/15/little-green-lines/comment-page-2/#comment-172161</link>
		<dc:creator>cf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Sep 2006 13:02:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/15/little-green-lines/#comment-172161</guid>
		<description>English language newspapers in Saudi Arabia used to automatically replace &quot;offensive&quot; words in wire service text with acceptable equivalents (even in crossword puzzles) - &quot;beer&quot; became &quot;beverage&quot;, &quot;ham&quot; became &quot;meat&quot;.  Once, in an article about a rock band, I read how they got their start playing at high schools and &quot;restaurant mitzvahs&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>English language newspapers in Saudi Arabia used to automatically replace &#8220;offensive&#8221; words in wire service text with acceptable equivalents (even in crossword puzzles) &#8211; &#8220;beer&#8221; became &#8220;beverage&#8221;, &#8220;ham&#8221; became &#8220;meat&#8221;.  Once, in an article about a rock band, I read how they got their start playing at high schools and &#8220;restaurant mitzvahs&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: maidhc</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/15/little-green-lines/comment-page-2/#comment-172146</link>
		<dc:creator>maidhc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Sep 2006 06:56:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/15/little-green-lines/#comment-172146</guid>
		<description>It appears to me that many major newspapers use the Word grammar checker to replace a human editor.  One seldom finds simple spelling errors in the papers, but usages like &quot;with baited breath&quot;, &quot;pouring over old documents&quot; and my favourite &quot;Viola! There it was!&quot; are common.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It appears to me that many major newspapers use the Word grammar checker to replace a human editor.  One seldom finds simple spelling errors in the papers, but usages like &#8220;with baited breath&#8221;, &#8220;pouring over old documents&#8221; and my favourite &#8220;Viola! There it was!&#8221; are common.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry (not the famous one)</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/15/little-green-lines/comment-page-2/#comment-172139</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry (not the famous one)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Sep 2006 02:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/15/little-green-lines/#comment-172139</guid>
		<description>A timely quotation pulled from some site somewhere, with attribution to a book I&#039;ve never seen:

&quot;I also believed, with Aldous Huxley, that it takes just as much work to write a bad book as a good one, and that whoever made the effort deserved, at least, a kind word -- even if the kindest words one could muster were &#039;please learn to spell, punctuate, construct a sentence, think coherently, find some other way of making a living.&#039;&quot; 
Rayanna Simons, &quot;Slush,&quot; in Editors on Editing 117, 117</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>A timely quotation pulled from some site somewhere, with attribution to a book I&#8217;ve never seen:</p>

	<p>&#8220;I also believed, with Aldous Huxley, that it takes just as much work to write a bad book as a good one, and that whoever made the effort deserved, at least, a kind word&#8212;even if the kindest words one could muster were &#8216;please learn to spell, punctuate, construct a sentence, think coherently, find some other way of making a living.&#8217;&#8221;<br />
Rayanna Simons, &#8220;Slush,&#8221; in Editors on Editing 117, 117</p>
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		<title>By: vivian</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/15/little-green-lines/comment-page-2/#comment-172138</link>
		<dc:creator>vivian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Sep 2006 02:14:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/15/little-green-lines/#comment-172138</guid>
		<description>I turn off the green lines as distracting, but turn them on once before printing. They are really useful as spell-checking for homonyms (this will catch there/they&#039;re/their mistakes) and autocorrect-induced mistakes. You know, the really embarrassing ones. 

It&#039;s an interesting idea because while the prescriptivist rules are all the Language Log guys complain they are, applying them to freshman papers will usually make the papers more readable. Everything in moderation. So, yeah, try it and remember to tell us how it goes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I turn off the green lines as distracting, but turn them on once before printing. They are really useful as spell-checking for homonyms (this will catch there/they&#8217;re/their mistakes) and autocorrect-induced mistakes. You know, the really embarrassing ones.</p>

	<p>It&#8217;s an interesting idea because while the prescriptivist rules are all the Language Log guys complain they are, applying them to freshman papers will usually make the papers more readable. Everything in moderation. So, yeah, try it and remember to tell us how it goes.</p>
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		<title>By: anonymous</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/15/little-green-lines/comment-page-2/#comment-172137</link>
		<dc:creator>anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Sep 2006 01:58:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/15/little-green-lines/#comment-172137</guid>
		<description>You should next write a diatribe against the automatic production of outlines and lists in MSWord. It makes drawing up your own outlines and syllabi very difficult.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>You should next write a diatribe against the automatic production of outlines and lists in MSWord. It makes drawing up your own outlines and syllabi very difficult.</p>
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		<title>By: nick s</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/15/little-green-lines/comment-page-2/#comment-172135</link>
		<dc:creator>nick s</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Sep 2006 00:33:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/15/little-green-lines/#comment-172135</guid>
		<description>ben@51: we&#039;ve hashed out that particular flammable discussion a couple of times, and the related Word-vs-LaTeX one...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>ben@51: we&#8217;ve hashed out that particular flammable discussion a couple of times, and the related Word-vs-LaTeX one&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew John</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/15/little-green-lines/comment-page-2/#comment-172132</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Sep 2006 23:47:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/15/little-green-lines/#comment-172132</guid>
		<description>[kcindc, way back] I completely agree with your first paragraph, which is why I did not endorse using the little green lines as a tool for teaching good style.  

Thinking about it more in the light of these comments, I think that the stylechecker is much more useful to people who already know how to write than to those who don&#039;t.  I take my prose seriously, and I have little time for prescriptive rules of grammar, yet I do find the stylechecker useful.  I find it even more helpful when writing in French: it recently correctly pointed me to about half a dozen errors in a one-page document, all of which I was then able to fix.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[kcindc, way back] I completely agree with your first paragraph, which is why I did not endorse using the little green lines as a tool for teaching good style.</p>

	<p>Thinking about it more in the light of these comments, I think that the stylechecker is much more useful to people who already know how to write than to those who don&#8217;t.  I take my prose seriously, and I have little time for prescriptive rules of grammar, yet I do find the stylechecker useful.  I find it even more helpful when writing in French: it recently correctly pointed me to about half a dozen errors in a one-page document, all of which I was then able to fix.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/15/little-green-lines/comment-page-2/#comment-172115</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:56:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/15/little-green-lines/#comment-172115</guid>
		<description>Will no one here speak up in favor of emacs?  It not only has no grammar checker, and will never do anything annoying you didn&#039;t look up the keystroke combination for before hand, but has a built in psychiatrist, and an implementation of &quot;the game of life&quot; instead. Now, that&#039;s what I call a word processor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Will no one here speak up in favor of emacs?  It not only has no grammar checker, and will never do anything annoying you didn&#8217;t look up the keystroke combination for before hand, but has a built in psychiatrist, and an implementation of &#8220;the game of life&#8221; instead. Now, that&#8217;s what I call a word processor.</p>
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