Comments on: Heaven and Hell http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/19/heaven-and-hell/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Mon, 13 Feb 2012 05:00:09 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: jason corner http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/19/heaven-and-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-172581 jason corner Wed, 20 Sep 2006 14:38:42 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/19/heaven-and-hell/#comment-172581 At the risk of sounding mopey, could it be that there are just more (extremely) unpleasant things in the world than (extremely) pleasant ones to draw on as sources of imagery? Dante's hell is made up of grotesque versions of real things that we consider just awful - insects, feces, extreme heat, being eaten, et cetera. There are lots of mildly nice things in the world, like food and beer, but the really, really astonishingly good things are just outnumbered. At the risk of sounding mopey, could it be that there are just more (extremely) unpleasant things in the world than (extremely) pleasant ones to draw on as sources of imagery? Dante’s hell is made up of grotesque versions of real things that we consider just awful – insects, feces, extreme heat, being eaten, et cetera. There are lots of mildly nice things in the world, like food and beer, but the really, really astonishingly good things are just outnumbered.

]]> By: Ginger Yellow http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/19/heaven-and-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-172540 Ginger Yellow Wed, 20 Sep 2006 09:43:42 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/19/heaven-and-hell/#comment-172540 <blockquote>The devil always gets the best lines because he’s a crude, vulgar, pagan character, utterly fearless and free of restraint, available to be imbued with any attitude the author chooses. He’s the ultimate dramatic foil: any opinion he voices is perfectly deniable, and neither he nor those he criticises can complain.</blockquote> Spurious pop culture analogy: in the episode(s) of South Park dealing with the Danish cartoon controversy, the criticisms of South Park are put in the mouths of a) Cartman, and b) a terrorist. Conversely the sympathetic characters Kyle and Stan are ardent Family Guy fans.
The devil always gets the best lines because he’s a crude, vulgar, pagan character, utterly fearless and free of restraint, available to be imbued with any attitude the author chooses. He’s the ultimate dramatic foil: any opinion he voices is perfectly deniable, and neither he nor those he criticises can complain.

Spurious pop culture analogy: in the episode(s) of South Park dealing with the Danish cartoon controversy, the criticisms of South Park are put in the mouths of a) Cartman, and b) a terrorist. Conversely the sympathetic characters Kyle and Stan are ardent Family Guy fans.

]]> By: Stephen http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/19/heaven-and-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-172539 Stephen Wed, 20 Sep 2006 09:24:16 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/19/heaven-and-hell/#comment-172539 I wouldn't call the Paradiso dull by any stretch of the imagination but it is undoubtedly the case that you can read the Inferno purely for the scenery which you can't do with the Paradiso. (It's missing the point with a vengeance but it's humanly possible.) Part of this is the change that takes place in 'Dante' in the poem. There is an element of 'gee-whizz look at that' from the human-all-too-human Dante of the Inferno - at one point an exasperated Virgil has to tick him off for eavesdropping on a conversation - by the Purgatorio he is not merely seeing sin as it is but repenting of it. Having been thoroughly purged of sin and raised into heaven by Divine Grace (Beatrice) he can hardly regard the abode of the blessed as a tourist attraction. Hence the focus of his attention shifts. This coincides, rather neatly, I think with the entirely human predicament of being able to invent interesting and macabre torments for the dammned but not suitable rewards for the blessed. Hell is just the worst bits of earth made eternal. Heaven is the Beatific Vision. Human language is much better at describing the former than the latter because we have rather more experience of it. All of which is a long winded way of saying that, yes, Dante really disproves Cerulo's thesis. I wouldn’t call the Paradiso dull by any stretch of the imagination but it is undoubtedly the case that you can read the Inferno purely for the scenery which you can’t do with the Paradiso. (It’s missing the point with a vengeance but it’s humanly possible.) Part of this is the change that takes place in ‘Dante’ in the poem. There is an element of ‘gee-whizz look at that’ from the human-all-too-human Dante of the Inferno – at one point an exasperated Virgil has to tick him off for eavesdropping on a conversation – by the Purgatorio he is not merely seeing sin as it is but repenting of it. Having been thoroughly purged of sin and raised into heaven by Divine Grace (Beatrice) he can hardly regard the abode of the blessed as a tourist attraction. Hence the focus of his attention shifts. This coincides, rather neatly, I think with the entirely human predicament of being able to invent interesting and macabre torments for the dammned but not suitable rewards for the blessed. Hell is just the worst bits of earth made eternal. Heaven is the Beatific Vision. Human language is much better at describing the former than the latter because we have rather more experience of it.

All of which is a long winded way of saying that, yes, Dante really disproves Cerulo’s thesis.

]]> By: bad Jim http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/19/heaven-and-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-172535 bad Jim Wed, 20 Sep 2006 08:17:22 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/19/heaven-and-hell/#comment-172535 The devil always gets the best lines because he's a crude, vulgar, pagan character, utterly fearless and free of restraint, available to be imbued with any attitude the author chooses. He's the ultimate dramatic foil: any opinion he voices is perfectly deniable, and neither he nor those he criticises can complain. Why, though, are Christianity and Islam considered monotheistic, when both stipulate the existence of a devil? And angels? The devil always gets the best lines because he’s a crude, vulgar, pagan character, utterly fearless and free of restraint, available to be imbued with any attitude the author chooses. He’s the ultimate dramatic foil: any opinion he voices is perfectly deniable, and neither he nor those he criticises can complain.

Why, though, are Christianity and Islam considered monotheistic, when both stipulate the existence of a devil? And angels?

]]> By: derrida derider http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/19/heaven-and-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-172505 derrida derider Wed, 20 Sep 2006 02:44:46 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/19/heaven-and-hell/#comment-172505 It was Blake who in an aside first pointed out why Milton made Satan and Hell much more interesting than God and Heaven - "he was of the devil's party without knowing it" (Blake meant that as praise - strange guy). It was Blake who in an aside first pointed out why Milton made Satan and Hell much more interesting than God and Heaven – “he was of the devil’s party without knowing it” (Blake meant that as praise – strange guy).

]]> By: kid bitzer http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/19/heaven-and-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-172503 kid bitzer Wed, 20 Sep 2006 02:23:07 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/19/heaven-and-hell/#comment-172503 no, it's one of those things that's designed to get you to ask "so what was the first best thing"? Obliging of you to play straight man. no, it’s one of those things that’s designed to get you to ask “so what was the first best thing”?

Obliging of you to play straight man.

]]> By: John Quiggin http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/19/heaven-and-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-172487 John Quiggin Tue, 19 Sep 2006 22:54:41 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/19/heaven-and-hell/#comment-172487 <i>Origins of the Second World War</i> was impressive, but totally wrongheaded, I think. BTW, Harry you've listed #2, #3 and #4 but not #1. Is this one of those things that's supposed to be obvious? Origins of the Second World War was impressive, but totally wrongheaded, I think.

BTW, Harry you’ve listed #2, #3 and #4 but not #1. Is this one of those things that’s supposed to be obvious?

]]> By: harry b http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/19/heaven-and-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-172481 harry b Tue, 19 Sep 2006 22:05:21 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/19/heaven-and-hell/#comment-172481 Paradise Lost was the second best thing I was made to read at school. Closely followed by Emma and The Origins of the Second World War. Never got to Regained though. Paradise Lost was the second best thing I was made to read at school. Closely followed by Emma and The Origins of the Second World War. Never got to Regained though.

]]> By: Ginger Yellow http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/19/heaven-and-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-172478 Ginger Yellow Tue, 19 Sep 2006 21:32:50 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/19/heaven-and-hell/#comment-172478 <blockquote>The Royal Academy of Art in London (Sackler Gallery) showed a gorgeous set of engravings from an illustrated Dante a few years ago...</blockquote> Those were Botticelli's. You can see them <a href="http://dante.ilt.columbia.edu/images/index.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.
The Royal Academy of Art in London (Sackler Gallery) showed a gorgeous set of engravings from an illustrated Dante a few years ago…

Those were Botticelli’s. You can see them here.

]]> By: john c. halasz http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/19/heaven-and-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-172459 john c. halasz Tue, 19 Sep 2006 18:36:41 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/19/heaven-and-hell/#comment-172459 It's been twenty years since I read it, but I thought the "Purgatorio" the best part of the "Divine Commedy". The "Inferno" has sharply etched characters, an interesting moral framework for its causuistries, and supple moral psychology of sin and damnation, rooted in a combination of obsession and obtuseness and attributed in general to "perverse desire", defined as desiring what one fears. But the grim materialism of an absolutely fallen world, which culminates in frozen treachery, in the notion of evil as absolute coldness, has its limits. In the "Purgatorio", the shades/souls are curiously vibrant, Dante discusses his poetic/aesthetic ideas and brings off synaesthetic audio-visual effects. The overall feeling is one of solidarity amongst wayfarers. The "Paradisio" is heavily doctrinal and all white-on-white, blinding light, such the the intent of intensifing joy back-fires and yields diminishing returns. Two things I do remember from the "Paradisio" is that the heavenly saints look on the torments of the damned with satisfaction, even more than equanimity, almost like Brahmins looking on untouchables, and that on one planet, IIRC thematically dedicated to monasticism, mystical union/heavenly bliss is described in terms of the metaphor of an orgy, which ribaldry amidst sublimity was not uncommon in Medieval discourse. Perhaps the intrinsic problem is that human language has abundant means to express suffering or striving, but scarcely can express bliss or exstasy. Joy is not only purposeless and "irrational", as well as, rare and unlikely, but is essentially ineffable, its effusions only banalizing. The effect of the "Paradiso" on a modern secular sensibility is more a depiction of infantile regression than an image of cosmically culminating fulfillment. It’s been twenty years since I read it, but I thought the “Purgatorio” the best part of the “Divine Commedy”. The “Inferno” has sharply etched characters, an interesting moral framework for its causuistries, and supple moral psychology of sin and damnation, rooted in a combination of obsession and obtuseness and attributed in general to “perverse desire”, defined as desiring what one fears. But the grim materialism of an absolutely fallen world, which culminates in frozen treachery, in the notion of evil as absolute coldness, has its limits. In the “Purgatorio”, the shades/souls are curiously vibrant, Dante discusses his poetic/aesthetic ideas and brings off synaesthetic audio-visual effects. The overall feeling is one of solidarity amongst wayfarers. The “Paradisio” is heavily doctrinal and all white-on-white, blinding light, such the the intent of intensifing joy back-fires and yields diminishing returns. Two things I do remember from the “Paradisio” is that the heavenly saints look on the torments of the damned with satisfaction, even more than equanimity, almost like Brahmins looking on untouchables, and that on one planet, IIRC thematically dedicated to monasticism, mystical union/heavenly bliss is described in terms of the metaphor of an orgy, which ribaldry amidst sublimity was not uncommon in Medieval discourse. Perhaps the intrinsic problem is that human language has abundant means to express suffering or striving, but scarcely can express bliss or exstasy. Joy is not only purposeless and “irrational”, as well as, rare and unlikely, but is essentially ineffable, its effusions only banalizing. The effect of the “Paradiso” on a modern secular sensibility is more a depiction of infantile regression than an image of cosmically culminating fulfillment.

]]> By: Rasselas http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/19/heaven-and-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-172458 Rasselas Tue, 19 Sep 2006 18:03:36 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/19/heaven-and-hell/#comment-172458 Re: 12, I think that's right, but I don't think I conveyed properly what I had in mind about hell as the maintenance of the alienated individual, as distinguished from heaven as the explosion of the individual. Probably unduly influenced by a few unsystematically-absorbed statements by Hans Kung about hell as "distance" from God. Re: 12, I think that’s right, but I don’t think I conveyed properly what I had in mind about hell as the maintenance of the alienated individual, as distinguished from heaven as the explosion of the individual. Probably unduly influenced by a few unsystematically-absorbed statements by Hans Kung about hell as “distance” from God.

]]> By: hermit greg http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/19/heaven-and-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-172456 hermit greg Tue, 19 Sep 2006 17:35:42 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/19/heaven-and-hell/#comment-172456 Would it be fair to say Cerullo is leaning too hard on the sublime, where vagueness and mystery itself signifies what there is to be afraid of? Re: 13 -- It's worth plugging Swedenborg again. For him, <a href="http://swedenborg.newearth.org/hh/hh11.html" rel="nofollow">that heaven is a metaphor is entirely the point</a>: men are in heaven; men in heaven make societies, and societies are men; societies in heaven make heaven, and heaven is a man; heaven is a man is God. (Essentially.) Would it be fair to say Cerullo is leaning too hard on the sublime, where vagueness and mystery itself signifies what there is to be afraid of?

Re: 13—It’s worth plugging Swedenborg again. For him, that heaven is a metaphor is entirely the point: men are in heaven; men in heaven make societies, and societies are men; societies in heaven make heaven, and heaven is a man; heaven is a man is God. (Essentially.)

]]> By: Richard http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/19/heaven-and-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-172453 Richard Tue, 19 Sep 2006 16:44:30 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/19/heaven-and-hell/#comment-172453 re:12 - I'd say (without positive evidence as backing, however) that hell tends to be more clearly portrayed than heaven exactly because of the problem of individuality: there's broad agreement across social classes and national boundaries that being endlessly torn to shreds or burned in a lake of fire is a Bad Thing, but probably rather less agreement on exactly what bliss looks like (whether it contains sex, or bodies, or individual consciousness, what people actually do with their eternity, when they don't have any needs or ambitions to fulfill). The Royal Academy of Art in London (Sackler Gallery) showed a gorgeous set of engravings from an illustrated Dante a few years ago: hell was lavishly detailed, with a mixture of close-up and overview scenes and distinguishable personalities; the purgatory plates had rather less vigour, and relied (IIRC) entirely on distant observer viewpoints; and heaven appeared a kind of theoretical, Platonically ideal, mathematical sort of space, where the figure of the narrator himself was one of the few recognisable elements; a sort of precursor to the common advertising strategy of placing the product in front of a featureless white screen. This struck me at the time as absolutely typical of depictions of the two environments in general: any depiction of heaven is understood to be metaphorical, a pale shadow of the unimaginable, illimitable; images of hell, on the other hand, are concrete, aimed at evoking visceral reactions, and understood to be literal, 'true' depictions. re:12 – I’d say (without positive evidence as backing, however) that hell tends to be more clearly portrayed than heaven exactly because of the problem of individuality: there’s broad agreement across social classes and national boundaries that being endlessly torn to shreds or burned in a lake of fire is a Bad Thing, but probably rather less agreement on exactly what bliss looks like (whether it contains sex, or bodies, or individual consciousness, what people actually do with their eternity, when they don’t have any needs or ambitions to fulfill).

The Royal Academy of Art in London (Sackler Gallery) showed a gorgeous set of engravings from an illustrated Dante a few years ago: hell was lavishly detailed, with a mixture of close-up and overview scenes and distinguishable personalities; the purgatory plates had rather less vigour, and relied (IIRC) entirely on distant observer viewpoints; and heaven appeared a kind of theoretical, Platonically ideal, mathematical sort of space, where the figure of the narrator himself was one of the few recognisable elements; a sort of precursor to the common advertising strategy of placing the product in front of a featureless white screen. This struck me at the time as absolutely typical of depictions of the two environments in general: any depiction of heaven is understood to be metaphorical, a pale shadow of the unimaginable, illimitable; images of hell, on the other hand, are concrete, aimed at evoking visceral reactions, and understood to be literal, ‘true’ depictions.

]]> By: Rasselas http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/19/heaven-and-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-172448 Rasselas Tue, 19 Sep 2006 15:39:41 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/19/heaven-and-hell/#comment-172448 One reason for the superior definition of hell might be the expectation that individuality as we believe we know it at present will be ablated by assumption into the heavenly chorus, while our idiosyncrasies will be preserved in hell for the sake of the infliction of appropriate punishments. One reason for the superior definition of hell might be the expectation that individuality as we believe we know it at present will be ablated by assumption into the heavenly chorus, while our idiosyncrasies will be preserved in hell for the sake of the infliction of appropriate punishments.

]]> By: Delicious Pundit http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/19/heaven-and-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-172446 Delicious Pundit Tue, 19 Sep 2006 15:21:56 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/19/heaven-and-hell/#comment-172446 “The dismal Situation waste and wilde, [ 60 ] A Dungeon horrible, on all sides round As one great Furnace flam’d, yet from those flames No light, but rather darkness visible Serv’d onely to discover sights of woe, Regions of sorrow, doleful shades, where peace And rest can never dwell, hope never comes That comes to all; but torture without end Still urges, and a fiery Deluge, fed With ever-burning Sulphur unconsum’d:” Yes, but we <i>need</i> to keep doing such things or America will be vulnerable to terrorism. “The dismal Situation waste and wilde, [ 60 ]
A Dungeon horrible, on all sides round
As one great Furnace flam’d, yet from those flames
No light, but rather darkness visible
Serv’d onely to discover sights of woe,
Regions of sorrow, doleful shades, where peace And rest can never dwell, hope never comes
That comes to all; but torture without end
Still urges, and a fiery Deluge, fed
With ever-burning Sulphur unconsum’d:”

Yes, but we need to keep doing such things or America will be vulnerable to terrorism.

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