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	<title>Comments on: War on Science: Science Strikes Back</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/21/war-on-science-science-strikes-back/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: bi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/21/war-on-science-science-strikes-back/comment-page-1/#comment-172885</link>
		<dc:creator>bi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Sep 2006 08:28:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/21/war-on-science-science-strikes-back/#comment-172885</guid>
		<description>JR: Your just-so story sounds attractive, but in the end it&#039;s still a just-so story. There is evidence, in fact, that relativism is much older than some group of English professors in universities, and is at least &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophism&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;as old as ancient Greek civilization&lt;/a&gt; itself.

And right now, the problem isn&#039;t that people aren&#039;t challenging ExxonMobil&#039;s lies, the problem&#039;s that the challenges don&#039;t matter much if the people with vested interests in perpetuating these lies currently hold the reins of power.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>JR: Your just-so story sounds attractive, but in the end it&#8217;s still a just-so story. There is evidence, in fact, that relativism is much older than some group of English professors in universities, and is at least <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophism" rel="nofollow">as old as ancient Greek civilization</a> itself.</p>

	<p>And right now, the problem isn&#8217;t that people aren&#8217;t challenging ExxonMobil&#8217;s lies, the problem&#8217;s that the challenges don&#8217;t matter much if the people with vested interests in perpetuating these lies currently hold the reins of power.</p>
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		<title>By: JR</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/21/war-on-science-science-strikes-back/comment-page-1/#comment-172877</link>
		<dc:creator>JR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Sep 2006 01:42:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/21/war-on-science-science-strikes-back/#comment-172877</guid>
		<description>John Quiggin - I&#039;ve read your post again and since you&#039;ve misunderstood me about as completely as humanly possible let me try again.  Exxon doesn&#039;t care about truth.  It cares about profit.  If truth stands in the way of profit, well then, Exxon lies. 
There have always been liars who will sell themselves for money. &quot;Leftists&quot; in universities have nothing to do with that.  

The question is, why are honest people of good will seemingly so powerless or feckless in the face of the liars of Exxon, Fox News, the Republican leadership, the WSJ editorial page?

Once upon a time there were intellectuals who knew the difference between an honest person and a liar.  Now we have intellectuals who teach that there is no such thing as honesty.  I think that that is part of the problem.  If people don&#039;t believe in truth, they are defenseless against falsehood.

PPS- the 101 most dangerous profs have nothing to do with it.  My favorite blogger, Berube, knows a liar when he sees one.  So do Eric Foner and Victor Navasky, among others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>John Quiggin &#8211; I&#8217;ve read your post again and since you&#8217;ve misunderstood me about as completely as humanly possible let me try again.  Exxon doesn&#8217;t care about truth.  It cares about profit.  If truth stands in the way of profit, well then, Exxon lies.<br />
There have always been liars who will sell themselves for money. &#8220;Leftists&#8221; in universities have nothing to do with that.</p>

	<p>The question is, why are honest people of good will seemingly so powerless or feckless in the face of the liars of Exxon, Fox News, the Republican leadership, the <span class="caps">WSJ</span> editorial page?</p>

	<p>Once upon a time there were intellectuals who knew the difference between an honest person and a liar.  Now we have intellectuals who teach that there is no such thing as honesty.  I think that that is part of the problem.  If people don&#8217;t believe in truth, they are defenseless against falsehood.</p>

	<p><span class="caps">PPS</span>- the 101 most dangerous profs have nothing to do with it.  My favorite blogger, Berube, knows a liar when he sees one.  So do Eric Foner and Victor Navasky, among others.</p>
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		<title>By: JR</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/21/war-on-science-science-strikes-back/comment-page-1/#comment-172875</link>
		<dc:creator>JR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Sep 2006 00:39:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/21/war-on-science-science-strikes-back/#comment-172875</guid>
		<description>John Quiggin- no, I&#039;m not saying that the &quot;Left&quot; caused Exxon, any more than Chamberlain caused Hitler.  What I am saying is that skepticism tends to disarm people when faced with genuine liars.  Professors who teach that what appears to be truth is really just power may think that they are teaching something radically subversive.  But the practical effect is to persuade students that there is nothing to be gained in opposing power and nothing to be lost in abandoning a commitment to truth.

PS- I put the &quot;Left&quot; in scare quotes because I believe that many on the self-identified left in academia are not leftists at all.  They are quietists whose lives and work are entirely outside any sort of practical politics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>John Quiggin- no, I&#8217;m not saying that the &#8220;Left&#8221; caused Exxon, any more than Chamberlain caused Hitler.  What I am saying is that skepticism tends to disarm people when faced with genuine liars.  Professors who teach that what appears to be truth is really just power may think that they are teaching something radically subversive.  But the practical effect is to persuade students that there is nothing to be gained in opposing power and nothing to be lost in abandoning a commitment to truth.</p>

	<p>PS- I put the &#8220;Left&#8221; in scare quotes because I believe that many on the self-identified left in academia are not leftists at all.  They are quietists whose lives and work are entirely outside any sort of practical politics.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve LaBonne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/21/war-on-science-science-strikes-back/comment-page-1/#comment-172865</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LaBonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Sep 2006 19:42:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/21/war-on-science-science-strikes-back/#comment-172865</guid>
		<description>If continuing to read straw men into my comments floats your boat, then by all means, knock yourself out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If continuing to read straw men into my comments floats your boat, then by all means, knock yourself out.</p>
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		<title>By: roger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/21/war-on-science-science-strikes-back/comment-page-1/#comment-172863</link>
		<dc:creator>roger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Sep 2006 19:34:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/21/war-on-science-science-strikes-back/#comment-172863</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s nice, steve, especially about the straw men. Since, of course, the message you were replying to was a response to a straw man argument - or actually a non-argument -- they aren&#039;t of my manufacture. 

This remark, however, seems to imply a straw man of its own  -- It’s as true to say of Quine and Laudan as it is of Mach (who by the way was at least as much philosopher as physicist) that their views about science were/are worthy of respectful attention because those views were underpinned by real knowledge and understanding of science.&quot; Which amounts to saying, &quot;their understanding of science deserves attention because they understand science.&quot; 

How nice for them -- but not a compliment, I think, that Quine or Lauden or any of the names you cited would find very convincing. Bogus accolades like that ease us into the habitual ridiculous denunciation of post modernism, and so on.

Now, the real argument here re global warming is not that we shouldn&#039;t be sceptical of scientific institutions. The history of the twentieth century is replete with official scientific institutions abusing science -- suppressing and distorting information. The AEC is a perfect example -- for forty years, it simply lied about the dangers of the testing of nuclear bombs. 

But we know why they lied, and we can follow the suppressions. The bad faith in accusing climatologists of following an ideological agenda is that the interest, here, is very weak, and the actual institutions with  material interests are, of course, the polluters. I&#039;d say that your pragmatism is in fact the best way to regard the pronouncements of the scientists -- not a bad faith skepticism, or a faith based one, and not a blind faith in Ph.Ds, either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>That&#8217;s nice, steve, especially about the straw men. Since, of course, the message you were replying to was a response to a straw man argument &#8211; or actually a non-argument&#8212;they aren&#8217;t of my manufacture.</p>

	<p>This remark, however, seems to imply a straw man of its own &#8212;It&#8217;s as true to say of Quine and Laudan as it is of Mach (who by the way was at least as much philosopher as physicist) that their views about science were/are worthy of respectful attention because those views were underpinned by real knowledge and understanding of science.&#8221; Which amounts to saying, &#8220;their understanding of science deserves attention because they understand science.&#8221;</p>

	<p>How nice for them&#8212;but not a compliment, I think, that Quine or Lauden or any of the names you cited would find very convincing. Bogus accolades like that ease us into the habitual ridiculous denunciation of post modernism, and so on.</p>

	<p>Now, the real argument here re global warming is not that we shouldn&#8217;t be sceptical of scientific institutions. The history of the twentieth century is replete with official scientific institutions abusing science&#8212;suppressing and distorting information. The <span class="caps">AEC</span> is a perfect example&#8212;for forty years, it simply lied about the dangers of the testing of nuclear bombs.</p>

	<p>But we know why they lied, and we can follow the suppressions. The bad faith in accusing climatologists of following an ideological agenda is that the interest, here, is very weak, and the actual institutions with  material interests are, of course, the polluters. I&#8217;d say that your pragmatism is in fact the best way to regard the pronouncements of the scientists&#8212;not a bad faith skepticism, or a faith based one, and not a blind faith in Ph.Ds, either.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve LaBonne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/21/war-on-science-science-strikes-back/comment-page-1/#comment-172861</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LaBonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Sep 2006 18:54:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/21/war-on-science-science-strikes-back/#comment-172861</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know what you&#039;re on about, Roger, but suffice it to say that I don&#039;t subscribe to any of the straw men paraded in your rather odd message (I am not &quot;jr&quot;). It&#039;s as true to say of Quine and Laudan as it is of Mach (who by the way was at least as much philosopher as physicist) that their views about science were/are worthy of respectful attention because those views were underpinned by real knowledge and understanding of science, so your feigned puzzlement was itself puzzling. If it matters, my personal philosophy of science, to the limited extent that I have tried to formulate it, is fairly close to Laudan&#039;s version of pragmatism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t know what you&#8217;re on about, Roger, but suffice it to say that I don&#8217;t subscribe to any of the straw men paraded in your rather odd message (I am not &#8220;jr&#8221;). It&#8217;s as true to say of Quine and Laudan as it is of Mach (who by the way was at least as much philosopher as physicist) that their views about science were/are worthy of respectful attention because those views were underpinned by real knowledge and understanding of science, so your feigned puzzlement was itself puzzling. If it matters, my personal philosophy of science, to the limited extent that I have tried to formulate it, is fairly close to Laudan&#8217;s version of pragmatism.</p>
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		<title>By: roger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/21/war-on-science-science-strikes-back/comment-page-1/#comment-172853</link>
		<dc:creator>roger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Sep 2006 17:26:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/21/war-on-science-science-strikes-back/#comment-172853</guid>
		<description>Steve, obviously, a mention of the social studies of science is an attempt to find where jr.&#039;s charge fits, since neither Derrida nor Lyotard wrote philosophy of science (nor do I think jr. has read a word of either philosopher, but that is neither here nor there. Ignorance is obviously an advantage in this debate). Philosophers who aren&#039;t specializing in science do write about science, of course -- for instance, Quine wrote, famously, 

&quot;As an empiricist I continue to think of the conceptual scheme of science as a tool, ultimately, for predicting future experience in the light of past experience. Physical objects are conceptually imported into the situation as convenient intermediaries -- not by definition in terms of experience, but simply as irreducible posits comparable, epistemologically, to the gods of Homer. Let me interject that for my part I do, qua lay physicist, believe in physical objects and not in Homer&#039;s gods; and I consider it a scientific error to believe otherwise. But in point of epistemological footing the physical objects and the gods differ only in degree and not in kind.&quot; 

Somehow, though, I&#039;ve never heard the accusation made that analytic philosophy leads to the development of an &quot;anti-science&quot; cultural elite (except, perhaps, in Chomsky&#039;s essay on Davidson). 

As for mainstream philosophy of science, can you get more mainstream than Nancy Cartwright&#039;s work on models? Nancy Cartwright isn&#039;t inclined to quote Lyotard -- they don&#039;t do that at the LSE - but she did publish a famous book entitled, How the Laws of Physics Lie. Hmm, now, isn&#039;t that interesting.

As for your idea that Mach, being a scientist, deserved infinite respect that we should never give to those Frenchy amateurs --well, many think Mach&#039;s mockery of the atomic theory led to Boltzman&#039;s suicide. Mach&#039;s effects on science have been debated, but nobody debates that in many ways, especially in his belief that atoms were a myth, he had a powerful negative effect on physics.  

So, here&#039;s the case:
1. Lyotard and Derrida are introduced merely as names. Nothing they say is quoted, no attempt to compare what they might have said to what other, &quot;mainstream&quot; philosophy of science people have said -- instead, they speak through the mouths of nutty English professors;
2. When attempting to at least get the charges right - which are, more properly, attached to Latour and the SST people -- suddenly the ground shifts from English professors to sociologists, who can&#039;t, after all, have a philosophy of science.
3. So, one pursues the avenue of the philosophy of science and finds it loaded (as, in my opinion, it should be) with a lot of statements that can only be construed relativistically, and a lot of statements, such as those by Quine, that are question the status of the sciences as radically as anything produced by that Devil Derrida. And at that point, the conversation lapses. As you should know, since you are citing him, Laudan is especially concerned with revision in science, which definitely makes problematic any idea of science as the linear accumulation of facts. It would be misleading in the extreme to say that Laudan believes that science is an advance from one truth to another - and his model has been accused of epistemic relativism by many other philosophers of science. So it goes. That debate is blessedly free of pundit-like smears.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Steve, obviously, a mention of the social studies of science is an attempt to find where jr.&#8217;s charge fits, since neither Derrida nor Lyotard wrote philosophy of science (nor do I think jr. has read a word of either philosopher, but that is neither here nor there. Ignorance is obviously an advantage in this debate). Philosophers who aren&#8217;t specializing in science do write about science, of course&#8212;for instance, Quine wrote, famously,</p>

	<p>&#8220;As an empiricist I continue to think of the conceptual scheme of science as a tool, ultimately, for predicting future experience in the light of past experience. Physical objects are conceptually imported into the situation as convenient intermediaries&#8212;not by definition in terms of experience, but simply as irreducible posits comparable, epistemologically, to the gods of Homer. Let me interject that for my part I do, qua lay physicist, believe in physical objects and not in Homer&#8217;s gods; and I consider it a scientific error to believe otherwise. But in point of epistemological footing the physical objects and the gods differ only in degree and not in kind.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Somehow, though, I&#8217;ve never heard the accusation made that analytic philosophy leads to the development of an &#8220;anti-science&#8221; cultural elite (except, perhaps, in Chomsky&#8217;s essay on Davidson).</p>

	<p>As for mainstream philosophy of science, can you get more mainstream than Nancy Cartwright&#8217;s work on models? Nancy Cartwright isn&#8217;t inclined to quote Lyotard&#8212;they don&#8217;t do that at the <span class="caps">LSE </span>- but she did publish a famous book entitled, How the Laws of Physics Lie. Hmm, now, isn&#8217;t that interesting.</p>

	<p>As for your idea that Mach, being a scientist, deserved infinite respect that we should never give to those Frenchy amateurs&#8212;well, many think Mach&#8217;s mockery of the atomic theory led to Boltzman&#8217;s suicide. Mach&#8217;s effects on science have been debated, but nobody debates that in many ways, especially in his belief that atoms were a myth, he had a powerful negative effect on physics.</p>

	<p>So, here&#8217;s the case:<br />
1. Lyotard and Derrida are introduced merely as names. Nothing they say is quoted, no attempt to compare what they might have said to what other, &#8220;mainstream&#8221; philosophy of science people have said&#8212;instead, they speak through the mouths of nutty English professors;<br />
2. When attempting to at least get the charges right &#8211; which are, more properly, attached to Latour and the <span class="caps">SST</span> people&#8212;suddenly the ground shifts from English professors to sociologists, who can&#8217;t, after all, have a philosophy of science.<br />
3. So, one pursues the avenue of the philosophy of science and finds it loaded (as, in my opinion, it should be) with a lot of statements that can only be construed relativistically, and a lot of statements, such as those by Quine, that are question the status of the sciences as radically as anything produced by that Devil Derrida. And at that point, the conversation lapses. As you should know, since you are citing him, Laudan is especially concerned with revision in science, which definitely makes problematic any idea of science as the linear accumulation of facts. It would be misleading in the extreme to say that Laudan believes that science is an advance from one truth to another &#8211; and his model has been accused of epistemic relativism by many other philosophers of science. So it goes. That debate is blessedly free of pundit-like smears.</p>
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		<title>By: George Williams</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/21/war-on-science-science-strikes-back/comment-page-1/#comment-172830</link>
		<dc:creator>George Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Sep 2006 11:47:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/21/war-on-science-science-strikes-back/#comment-172830</guid>
		<description>Re 39: Correlation is not causation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Re 39: Correlation is not causation.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/21/war-on-science-science-strikes-back/comment-page-1/#comment-172818</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Sep 2006 05:04:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/21/war-on-science-science-strikes-back/#comment-172818</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think roy was saying what you implied bi. Rather that we must bring our own moral values, including respect for truth and for the environment to science - we can&#039;t find the values there.

OTOH, jr certainly seems to be claiming that The Left Caused ExxonMobil, presumably because its spin merchants were corrupted by America&#039;s 101 most dangerous professors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t think roy was saying what you implied bi. Rather that we must bring our own moral values, including respect for truth and for the environment to science &#8211; we can&#8217;t find the values there.</p>

	<p><span class="caps">OTOH</span>, jr certainly seems to be claiming that The Left Caused ExxonMobil, presumably because its spin merchants were corrupted by America&#8217;s 101 most dangerous professors.</p>
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		<title>By: bi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/21/war-on-science-science-strikes-back/comment-page-1/#comment-172816</link>
		<dc:creator>bi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Sep 2006 02:54:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/21/war-on-science-science-strikes-back/#comment-172816</guid>
		<description>The Left Caused ExxonMobil: Because Michael Moore is Fat!

And... so what roy belmont is saying is that it&#039;s perfectly OK to distort the truth to suit one&#039;s own ends. Thank you, roy belmont, you&#039;ve just proven that you&#039;re a baby-raping serial killer.

Here&#039;s the deal. Systematically distorting science, misrepresenting science, putting words into science&#039;s mouth, just so that one can earn profits that are more insane than one&#039;s insane profits,  is simply wrong, wrong, and wrong. Funding &#039;independent&#039; groups to be one&#039;s mouthpiece is wrong. And being short-sighted enough to destroy the same earth which we live on -- possibly destroying ourselves in the process -- what, that&#039;s not wrong?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The Left Caused ExxonMobil: Because Michael Moore is Fat!</p>

	<p>And&#8230; so what roy belmont is saying is that it&#8217;s perfectly OK to distort the truth to suit one&#8217;s own ends. Thank you, roy belmont, you&#8217;ve just proven that you&#8217;re a baby-raping serial killer.</p>

	<p>Here&#8217;s the deal. Systematically distorting science, misrepresenting science, putting words into science&#8217;s mouth, just so that one can earn profits that are more insane than one&#8217;s insane profits,  is simply wrong, wrong, and wrong. Funding &#8216;independent&#8217; groups to be one&#8217;s mouthpiece is wrong. And being short-sighted enough to destroy the same earth which we live on&#8212;possibly destroying ourselves in the process&#8212;what, that&#8217;s not wrong?</p>
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		<title>By: roy belmont</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/21/war-on-science-science-strikes-back/comment-page-1/#comment-172810</link>
		<dc:creator>roy belmont</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 23:13:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/21/war-on-science-science-strikes-back/#comment-172810</guid>
		<description>Oh heck. &quot;Vernacular&quot; - that would be like, common, the people, how your average listener understands the term.
Science in that usage meaning the convoluted, multi-step processing of stuff into other stuff - like making plastic out of soybeans, or babies out of unfertilized ova.
Point of fact Ajay#6 I was aware even as I wrote that that there is a &quot;pure&quot; science, and believe it or not I&#039;ve had close friends whose lives were aligned with that unbiased search for truth. 
Are you working with the idea that there may be a metaphysical parallel here? That just as science on the ground has a Mengelian component that can&#039;t be shrugged off or reattributed, religion has its perversions and untruthful practioners?
Crystal#34:&lt;i&gt;
&quot; ...its fiddling with scientific fact is bad for the earth...&quot;&lt;/i&gt;
This is a mixing of the very thing ajay&#039;s trying to bust me for.
There is no moral weight to ultimate truth. Nothing is &quot;bad&quot; for anything else, because there is no moral center to anything. Exxon&#039;s its own moral center, therefore when the truth is bad for Exxon, the denial of truth is morally sound. This same paradigm is in play across the current events landscape.
The petrochemical industry can be reduced to a cartoon avatar of a chugging smokestack rising out of a chaotic nest of pipes and windowless buildings. Can&#039;t it? That&#039;s got nothing to do with the truth. But science as it intersects our lives is a lot like that. That was the point I was trying to illustrate.
Exxon is science without religion as applied to the immediate value system of the present. Religion in that sentence meaning moral alignment with something outside the self.
There is no &quot;bad&quot; in the wiping out of the entire mammalian branch of the tree of life, until we get a moral center that has us in it. Again, Exxon and its drones have put themselves in that center and make their moral decisions accordingly. You can express regret that their blindness and greed are damaging something you find beautiful and necessary, but you&#039;re not going to have a rebuttal to their &quot;so what&quot; until you get a moral center and alignment that&#039;s greater than theirs. 
Science, pure science, won&#039;t bring you that. There&#039;s no valence. An anemone, a crab, a sardine, a whale, the moon, the sun, the galaxy - all equally &lt;i&gt;morally&lt;/i&gt; weightless, except to themselves. Without that alignment and that center.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oh heck. &#8220;Vernacular&#8221; &#8211; that would be like, common, the people, how your average listener understands the term.<br />
Science in that usage meaning the convoluted, multi-step processing of stuff into other stuff &#8211; like making plastic out of soybeans, or babies out of unfertilized ova.<br />
Point of fact Ajay#6 I was aware even as I wrote that that there is a &#8220;pure&#8221; science, and believe it or not I&#8217;ve had close friends whose lives were aligned with that unbiased search for truth.<br />
Are you working with the idea that there may be a metaphysical parallel here? That just as science on the ground has a Mengelian component that can&#8217;t be shrugged off or reattributed, religion has its perversions and untruthful practioners?<br />
Crystal#34:<i><br />
&#8221; &#8230;its fiddling with scientific fact is bad for the earth&#8230;&#8221;</i><br />
This is a mixing of the very thing ajay&#8217;s trying to bust me for.<br />
There is no moral weight to ultimate truth. Nothing is &#8220;bad&#8221; for anything else, because there is no moral center to anything. Exxon&#8217;s its own moral center, therefore when the truth is bad for Exxon, the denial of truth is morally sound. This same paradigm is in play across the current events landscape.<br />
The petrochemical industry can be reduced to a cartoon avatar of a chugging smokestack rising out of a chaotic nest of pipes and windowless buildings. Can&#8217;t it? That&#8217;s got nothing to do with the truth. But science as it intersects our lives is a lot like that. That was the point I was trying to illustrate.<br />
Exxon is science without religion as applied to the immediate value system of the present. Religion in that sentence meaning moral alignment with something outside the self.<br />
There is no &#8220;bad&#8221; in the wiping out of the entire mammalian branch of the tree of life, until we get a moral center that has us in it. Again, Exxon and its drones have put themselves in that center and make their moral decisions accordingly. You can express regret that their blindness and greed are damaging something you find beautiful and necessary, but you&#8217;re not going to have a rebuttal to their &#8220;so what&#8221; until you get a moral center and alignment that&#8217;s greater than theirs.<br />
Science, pure science, won&#8217;t bring you that. There&#8217;s no valence. An anemone, a crab, a sardine, a whale, the moon, the sun, the galaxy &#8211; all equally <i>morally</i> weightless, except to themselves. Without that alignment and that center.</p>
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		<title>By: Francis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/21/war-on-science-science-strikes-back/comment-page-1/#comment-172809</link>
		<dc:creator>Francis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 22:40:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/21/war-on-science-science-strikes-back/#comment-172809</guid>
		<description>george: by the outcome of the two most recent US Presidential elections.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>george: by the outcome of the two most recent <span class="caps">US </span>Presidential elections.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve LaBonne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/21/war-on-science-science-strikes-back/comment-page-1/#comment-172808</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LaBonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 22:33:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/21/war-on-science-science-strikes-back/#comment-172808</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Derrida and Lyotard, those frisky outlaws, were nothing in their skepticism compared to, say, Ernst Mach. And guess what? Einstein found Mach’s work, in spite of the skepticism about atoms, useful. I wonder why.&lt;/blockquote&gt; Then wonder no longer- I shall enlighten you. The reason is that Mach was a more than competent physicist, who knew what the hell he was talking about, and for whom Einstein had great respect. 

P.S. &lt;i&gt;Mainstream&lt;/i&gt; philosophy of science is practiced by the likes of Kitcher, Bunge, Laudan, Sober et hoc genus omne. Your comment does not contain the name of a philosopher of science (Latour is a sociologist).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote>Derrida and Lyotard, those frisky outlaws, were nothing in their skepticism compared to, say, Ernst Mach. And guess what? Einstein found Mach&#8217;s work, in spite of the skepticism about atoms, useful. I wonder why.</blockquote> Then wonder no longer- I shall enlighten you. The reason is that Mach was a more than competent physicist, who knew what the hell he was talking about, and for whom Einstein had great respect.</p>

	<p>P.S. <i>Mainstream</i> philosophy of science is practiced by the likes of Kitcher, Bunge, Laudan, Sober et hoc genus omne. Your comment does not contain the name of a philosopher of science (Latour is a sociologist).</p>
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		<title>By: george</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/21/war-on-science-science-strikes-back/comment-page-1/#comment-172804</link>
		<dc:creator>george</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 20:10:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/21/war-on-science-science-strikes-back/#comment-172804</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;What has happened is that the influence of “the left” in the universities has created a class of educated people who have no belief in truth and therefore have no defense when faced with genuine liars.&lt;/i&gt;

Fascinating thesis. How has this influence been measured empirically?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>What has happened is that the influence of &#8220;the left&#8221; in the universities has created a class of educated people who have no belief in truth and therefore have no defense when faced with genuine liars.</i></p>

	<p>Fascinating thesis. How has this influence been measured empirically?</p>
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		<title>By: JR</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/21/war-on-science-science-strikes-back/comment-page-1/#comment-172803</link>
		<dc:creator>JR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 20:02:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/21/war-on-science-science-strikes-back/#comment-172803</guid>
		<description>33 - no, the point is that the people who should have been educated to believe that there is such a thing as truth, and that people who twist it for profit are con men, were educated instead to believe that there is no truth and anyone who claims there is is a con man.  This leaves them defenseless when they run into genuine con men like Exxon.  Now maybe that&#039;s because they were imbued with a bastardized caricature of culture studies, but that&#039;s what they got in their high-priced educations.

What has happened is that the influence of &quot;the left&quot; in the universities has created a class of educated people who have no belief in truth and therefore have no defense when faced with genuine liars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>33 &#8211; no, the point is that the people who should have been educated to believe that there is such a thing as truth, and that people who twist it for profit are con men, were educated instead to believe that there is no truth and anyone who claims there is is a con man.  This leaves them defenseless when they run into genuine con men like Exxon.  Now maybe that&#8217;s because they were imbued with a bastardized caricature of culture studies, but that&#8217;s what they got in their high-priced educations.</p>

	<p>What has happened is that the influence of &#8220;the left&#8221; in the universities has created a class of educated people who have no belief in truth and therefore have no defense when faced with genuine liars.</p>
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