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	<title>Comments on: Bizarro World Thucydides</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/27/levinson-on-thucydides/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/27/levinson-on-thucydides/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Eunomia &#183; A Political Hack Like No Other</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/27/levinson-on-thucydides/comment-page-2/#comment-173510</link>
		<dc:creator>Eunomia &#183; A Political Hack Like No Other</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Oct 2006 03:53:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/27/levinson-on-thucydides/#comment-173510</guid>
		<description>[...] Saturday, September 30th, 2006 in politics, history, foreign policy by Daniel Larison   I imagine that the appalling Victor Davis Hanson is to blame for most of this. I simply don’t see how one can read Thucydides without coming away with some quite emphatic lessons about the long term costs of imperial arrogance towards one’s political allies, how unnecessary military adventures turn into disasters, und so weiter. Not to mention Thucydides’ depiction of the dangers of cheap jingoism and pro-war demagoguery at home (it would be unfair to describe Glenn Reynolds and company as tinpot Kleons, if only because Kleon actually went out to fight the war that he had touted for). ~Harry Ferrell, Crooked Timber [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] Saturday, September 30th, 2006 in politics, history, foreign policy by Daniel Larison   I imagine that the appalling Victor Davis Hanson is to blame for most of this. I simply don&#8217;t see how one can read Thucydides without coming away with some quite emphatic lessons about the long term costs of imperial arrogance towards one&#8217;s political allies, how unnecessary military adventures turn into disasters, und so weiter. Not to mention Thucydides&#8217; depiction of the dangers of cheap jingoism and pro-war demagoguery at home (it would be unfair to describe Glenn Reynolds and company as tinpot Kleons, if only because Kleon actually went out to fight the war that he had touted for). ~Harry Ferrell, Crooked Timber [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Eunomia &#183; Syracuse, Anyone?</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/27/levinson-on-thucydides/comment-page-2/#comment-173509</link>
		<dc:creator>Eunomia &#183; Syracuse, Anyone?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Oct 2006 03:50:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/27/levinson-on-thucydides/#comment-173509</guid>
		<description>[...] Saturday, September 30th, 2006 in history, foreign policy by Daniel Larison   Henry Farrell gets medieval on a pet peeve of mine: neoimperialists invoking Thucydides. I&#8217;m not a big fan of our pundit Blavatskys who tell us that the dead would be on their side of some contemporary controversy. Orwell gets this the most of course. But if I was going to pick a historical figure supportive of democratic imperialism and the remote social engineering implied in transforming the Islamic world into a swarthier Kansas, then Thucydides would be absolutely the last on any list. ~Pithlord [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] Saturday, September 30th, 2006 in history, foreign policy by Daniel Larison   Henry Farrell gets medieval on a pet peeve of mine: neoimperialists invoking Thucydides. I&#8217;m not a big fan of our pundit Blavatskys who tell us that the dead would be on their side of some contemporary controversy. Orwell gets this the most of course. But if I was going to pick a historical figure supportive of democratic imperialism and the remote social engineering implied in transforming the Islamic world into a swarthier Kansas, then Thucydides would be absolutely the last on any list. ~Pithlord [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/27/levinson-on-thucydides/comment-page-2/#comment-173507</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Oct 2006 02:56:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/27/levinson-on-thucydides/#comment-173507</guid>
		<description>Re: #17 and #57, supra.

My impression of Hanson (after a couple of his books) is that his personal reasons were rooted in the basic fact that, unlike on his farm, in academia he was unable to order his colleagues off his property.

Have I judged him too harshly?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Re: #17 and #57, supra.</p>

	<p>My impression of Hanson (after a couple of his books) is that his personal reasons were rooted in the basic fact that, unlike on his farm, in academia he was unable to order his colleagues off his property.</p>

	<p>Have I judged him too harshly?</p>
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		<title>By: wmr</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/27/levinson-on-thucydides/comment-page-2/#comment-173506</link>
		<dc:creator>wmr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Oct 2006 00:29:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/27/levinson-on-thucydides/#comment-173506</guid>
		<description>Oh, those back stairs get you every time.

I really liked Hanson&#039;s &quot;The Other Greeks : The Family Farm And The Agrarian Roots Of Western Civilization&quot; (1995), but I&#039;m not a classical scholar so I can&#039;t say whether it is good history.

I wish he&#039;d stuck with that period, but apparently he had personal reasons for turning to modern times (see #17 above).

Nice preview feature, by the way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oh, those back stairs get you every time.</p>

	<p>I really liked Hanson&#8217;s &#8220;The Other Greeks : The Family Farm And The Agrarian Roots Of Western Civilization&#8221; (1995), but I&#8217;m not a classical scholar so I can&#8217;t say whether it is good history.</p>

	<p>I wish he&#8217;d stuck with that period, but apparently he had personal reasons for turning to modern times (see #17 above).</p>

	<p>Nice preview feature, by the way.</p>
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		<title>By: wmr</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/27/levinson-on-thucydides/comment-page-2/#comment-173504</link>
		<dc:creator>wmr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Sep 2006 23:59:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/27/levinson-on-thucydides/#comment-173504</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the link to Dan Simmons.  Now I don&#039;t feel so bad about not being able to finish any of his books.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks for the link to Dan Simmons.  Now I don&#8217;t feel so bad about not being able to finish any of his books.</p>
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		<title>By: brennen</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/27/levinson-on-thucydides/comment-page-2/#comment-173475</link>
		<dc:creator>brennen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Sep 2006 05:48:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/27/levinson-on-thucydides/#comment-173475</guid>
		<description>Ok, so I haven&#039;t read Thucydides, clearly should, all that.

But I have read Dan Simmons, and at least a couple of the &lt;em&gt;Hyperion&lt;/em&gt; books (the first two, specifically, before he starting pulling a Geo. Lucas on his own mythos, albeit more competently) were really good space opera. A superhuman time-manipulating killing machine, giant inscrutable AIs, a crazy poet, a galaxy-spanning network of teleportation devices, all kinds of fun stuff.

This piece - for the love of the sweet baby Jesus, what dread ideological disease keeps striking SF authors I really liked in high school? I mean, didn&#039;t anyone else used to admire Orson Scott Card?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ok, so I haven&#8217;t read Thucydides, clearly should, all that.</p>

	<p>But I have read Dan Simmons, and at least a couple of the <em>Hyperion</em> books (the first two, specifically, before he starting pulling a Geo. Lucas on his own mythos, albeit more competently) were really good space opera. A superhuman time-manipulating killing machine, giant inscrutable AIs, a crazy poet, a galaxy-spanning network of teleportation devices, all kinds of fun stuff.</p>

	<p>This piece &#8211; for the love of the sweet baby Jesus, what dread ideological disease keeps striking SF authors I really liked in high school? I mean, didn&#8217;t anyone else used to admire Orson Scott Card?</p>
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		<title>By: bi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/27/levinson-on-thucydides/comment-page-2/#comment-173440</link>
		<dc:creator>bi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Sep 2006 21:27:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/27/levinson-on-thucydides/#comment-173440</guid>
		<description>gmoke: I don&#039;t know. There are warmongers, and then there are warriors. And of course, the chickenhawks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>gmoke: I don&#8217;t know. There are warmongers, and then there are warriors. And of course, the chickenhawks.</p>
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		<title>By: gmoke</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/27/levinson-on-thucydides/comment-page-2/#comment-173432</link>
		<dc:creator>gmoke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Sep 2006 20:44:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/27/levinson-on-thucydides/#comment-173432</guid>
		<description>from Martin van Creveld&#039;s _The Transformation of War_:

page 218:  The reason why other activities do not provide a substitute is precisely because they are &quot;civilized&quot;:  in other words, bound by artificial rules.  Compared to war, der Ernstfall as the Germans used to say, every one of the many other activities in which men play with their lives is merely a game, and a trivial one at that.  Though war too is in one sense an artificial activity, it differs from all the rest in that it offers complete freedom, including paradoxically freedom from death.  War alone presents man with the opportunity of employing all his faculties, putting everything at risk, and testing his ultimate worth against an opponent as strong as himself.  It is the stakes that can make a game serious, even noble.  While war&#039;s usefulness as a servant of power, interest, and profit may be questioned, the inherent fascination it has held for men at all times and places is a matter of historical fact. When all is said and done, the only way to account for this fascination is to regard war as the game with the highest stakes of all.

page 221:  However unpalatable the fact, the real reason why we have wars is that men like fighting, and women like those men who are prepared to fight on their behalf.

My extensive notes from the book are available at 
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/9/22/02622/8960</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>from Martin van Creveld&#8217;s <em>The Transformation of War</em>:</p>

	<p>page 218: &#160;The reason why other activities do not provide a substitute is precisely because they are &#8220;civilized&#8221;: &#160;in other words, bound by artificial rules. &#160;Compared to war, der Ernstfall as the Germans used to say, every one of the many other activities in which men play with their lives is merely a game, and a trivial one at that. &#160;Though war too is in one sense an artificial activity, it differs from all the rest in that it offers complete freedom, including paradoxically freedom from death. &#160;War alone presents man with the opportunity of employing all his faculties, putting everything at risk, and testing his ultimate worth against an opponent as strong as himself. &#160;It is the stakes that can make a game serious, even noble. &#160;While war&#8217;s usefulness as a servant of power, interest, and profit may be questioned, the inherent fascination it has held for men at all times and places is a matter of historical fact. When all is said and done, the only way to account for this fascination is to regard war as the game with the highest stakes of all.</p>

	<p>page 221: &#160;However unpalatable the fact, the real reason why we have wars is that men like fighting, and women like those men who are prepared to fight on their behalf.</p>

	<p>My extensive notes from the book are available at<br />
<a href="http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/9/22/02622/8960" rel="nofollow">http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/9/22/02622/8960</a></p>
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		<title>By: Martin James</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/27/levinson-on-thucydides/comment-page-2/#comment-173396</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Sep 2006 16:27:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/27/levinson-on-thucydides/#comment-173396</guid>
		<description>Judd,

I agree. 

I&#039;m always just hoping that someone can show me the science in the social science that will explain why people are immature and keep on having wars.

What is the cause of people being immoral?

Gsmoke made the correct point that technology is increasing the ability of the few to create greater destruction.

Since we don&#039;t really know what makes people immature and destructive, being mature won&#039;t help us that much to prevent the destruction.

Why are the &quot;adults&quot; so impotent?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Judd,</p>

	<p>I agree.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m always just hoping that someone can show me the science in the social science that will explain why people are immature and keep on having wars.</p>

	<p>What is the cause of people being immoral?</p>

	<p>Gsmoke made the correct point that technology is increasing the ability of the few to create greater destruction.</p>

	<p>Since we don&#8217;t really know what makes people immature and destructive, being mature won&#8217;t help us that much to prevent the destruction.</p>

	<p>Why are the &#8220;adults&#8221; so impotent?</p>
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		<title>By: J. Slidestreet</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/27/levinson-on-thucydides/comment-page-2/#comment-173395</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Slidestreet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Sep 2006 16:26:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/27/levinson-on-thucydides/#comment-173395</guid>
		<description>Good old Thucy, a former army general, was writing about a war between nation-states, involving a comlex array of tribal groups. We don&#039;t really know, do we, what he would think about suicidal members of various death cults trying to kill members of their own religion and each every member of the civilized world they can get their hands on, men women and children. At least we&#039;ve killed, by their own report, over 4000 thousand of them so far. Jolly good show. Let&#039;s try for 40,000 as soon as possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Good old Thucy, a former army general, was writing about a war between nation-states, involving a comlex array of tribal groups. We don&#8217;t really know, do we, what he would think about suicidal members of various death cults trying to kill members of their own religion and each every member of the civilized world they can get their hands on, men women and children. At least we&#8217;ve killed, by their own report, over 4000 thousand of them so far. Jolly good show. Let&#8217;s try for 40,000 as soon as possible.</p>
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		<title>By: Urinated State of America</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/27/levinson-on-thucydides/comment-page-1/#comment-173378</link>
		<dc:creator>Urinated State of America</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Sep 2006 14:27:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/27/levinson-on-thucydides/#comment-173378</guid>
		<description>For God&#039;s sake, why didn&#039;t you warn us about how awful that piece by Simmons was?

There&#039;s an awful amount of bedwetting crap about the &quot;Restoration of the Caliphate&quot; knocking around on in wingerdom. The fact that it&#039;s as only slightly more likely than us growing wings doesn&#039;t seem to diminish the meme&#039;s strength. It&#039;s crap from wingnuts who&#039;ve rarely used a passport. One fantasy of reactionaries feeding the fantasies of another set of reactionaries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>For God&#8217;s sake, why didn&#8217;t you warn us about how awful that piece by Simmons was?</p>

	<p>There&#8217;s an awful amount of bedwetting crap about the &#8220;Restoration of the Caliphate&#8221; knocking around on in wingerdom. The fact that it&#8217;s as only slightly more likely than us growing wings doesn&#8217;t seem to diminish the meme&#8217;s strength. It&#8217;s crap from wingnuts who&#8217;ve rarely used a passport. One fantasy of reactionaries feeding the fantasies of another set of reactionaries.</p>
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		<title>By: butwhatif</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/27/levinson-on-thucydides/comment-page-1/#comment-173369</link>
		<dc:creator>butwhatif</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:20:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/27/levinson-on-thucydides/#comment-173369</guid>
		<description>I found Donald Kagan&#039;s analysis sharp. I particularly liked his rejection of any materialistic perspective, where he stresses the need to bring back an understanding of the heroic, aristocratic elements into historical and social-scientific analysis. Where he centres in on pride and honour in exploring the roots of conflict.

But just like other neocons, though (indeed this is where they all part company with conservatives), he&#039;s deeply ambivalent about what to do with these passions. Whether to endorse them, or tame them. The doses of romantic endorsement that one finds in Bloom, for instance, can also be discerned at times in Kagan. Which means, I guess, that neocon romanticism may well have sources other than Leo Strauss. (It&#039;s hard to call Kagan Snr a Straussian. He&#039;d never try, for instance, defending Strauss/Bloom&#039;s Plato.) His son, Robert, on the other hand, more of a &#039;manly man&#039; perhaps, is far more explicit in endorsing the romanticism, seeking to reinfuse politics with these impulses Greek. Just to make sure that modernity never turns us all into unmanly last men.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I found Donald Kagan&#8217;s analysis sharp. I particularly liked his rejection of any materialistic perspective, where he stresses the need to bring back an understanding of the heroic, aristocratic elements into historical and social-scientific analysis. Where he centres in on pride and honour in exploring the roots of conflict.</p>

	<p>But just like other neocons, though (indeed this is where they all part company with conservatives), he&#8217;s deeply ambivalent about what to do with these passions. Whether to endorse them, or tame them. The doses of romantic endorsement that one finds in Bloom, for instance, can also be discerned at times in Kagan. Which means, I guess, that neocon romanticism may well have sources other than Leo Strauss. (It&#8217;s hard to call Kagan Snr a Straussian. He&#8217;d never try, for instance, defending Strauss/Bloom&#8217;s Plato.) His son, Robert, on the other hand, more of a &#8216;manly man&#8217; perhaps, is far more explicit in endorsing the romanticism, seeking to reinfuse politics with these impulses Greek. Just to make sure that modernity never turns us all into unmanly last men.</p>
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		<title>By: Harald Korneliussen</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/27/levinson-on-thucydides/comment-page-1/#comment-173352</link>
		<dc:creator>Harald Korneliussen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Sep 2006 07:24:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/27/levinson-on-thucydides/#comment-173352</guid>
		<description>Glenn wrote: &quot;I think these people “read” thucydides the same way bloom “read” plato&quot;

Is that like the way &lt;a href=&quot;http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2006/07/my_head_she_exp.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Chris Muir reads Kant&lt;/a&gt;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Glenn wrote: &#8220;I think these people &#8220;read&#8221; thucydides the same way bloom &#8220;read&#8221; plato&#8221;</p>

	<p>Is that like the way <a href="http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2006/07/my_head_she_exp.html" rel="nofollow">Chris Muir reads Kant</a>?</p>
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		<title>By: judd</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/27/levinson-on-thucydides/comment-page-1/#comment-173345</link>
		<dc:creator>judd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Sep 2006 04:37:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/27/levinson-on-thucydides/#comment-173345</guid>
		<description>Martin James wrote:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
What are the anti-imperialists hoping for, to turn the whole world forever more into a collection of 21st century Switzerlands?

How dull is that?
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
It might seem dull to a child. To me, it seems the hight of adulthood to end the endless wars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Martin James wrote:<br />
<blockquote><br />
What are the anti-imperialists hoping for, to turn the whole world forever more into a collection of 21st century Switzerlands?</blockquote></p>

	<p>How dull is that?<br />
<br />
It might seem dull to a child. To me, it seems the hight of adulthood to end the endless wars.</p>
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		<title>By: gmoke</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/27/levinson-on-thucydides/comment-page-1/#comment-173342</link>
		<dc:creator>gmoke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Sep 2006 21:40:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/09/27/levinson-on-thucydides/#comment-173342</guid>
		<description>The purveyors of the &quot;clash of civilizations&quot; idea are engaging in grandiosity.  They build up an enemy in order to make themselves feel more heroic.

In actuality, we have entered a period in time when readily available technology enables small groups of individuals to create the same kind of havoc and damage that previously were only available to states and armies.  We may be going into a period of real chaos especially if climate change effects start hitting home and peak oil is a reality.  I&#039;d study walordism and the Period of Warring States in ancient Chinese history for parallels.

Armchair warriors are always a nuisance.  Armchair warriors directing operations are a disaster.

As for VD Hanson, when I heard him on his &quot;In Depth&quot; interview on CSPAN II explain to a caller that the US fought WWII to end the Holocaust, I realized that this man knows nothing about modern history.  He has turned himself into a lugubrious buffoon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The purveyors of the &#8220;clash of civilizations&#8221; idea are engaging in grandiosity.  They build up an enemy in order to make themselves feel more heroic.</p>

	<p>In actuality, we have entered a period in time when readily available technology enables small groups of individuals to create the same kind of havoc and damage that previously were only available to states and armies.  We may be going into a period of real chaos especially if climate change effects start hitting home and peak oil is a reality.  I&#8217;d study walordism and the Period of Warring States in ancient Chinese history for parallels.</p>

	<p>Armchair warriors are always a nuisance.  Armchair warriors directing operations are a disaster.</p>

	<p>As for <span class="caps">VD </span>Hanson, when I heard him on his &#8220;In Depth&#8221; interview on <span class="caps">CSPAN II</span> explain to a caller that the US fought <span class="caps">WWII</span> to end the Holocaust, I realized that this man knows nothing about modern history.  He has turned himself into a lugubrious buffoon.</p>
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