Comments on: The Art Mafia http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/09/the-art-mafia/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sun, 22 Nov 2009 02:52:26 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: trialsanderrors http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/09/the-art-mafia/comment-page-1/#comment-174834 trialsanderrors Thu, 12 Oct 2006 08:01:39 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/09/the-art-mafia/#comment-174834 We had this discussion last year when Pitchfork came out with its year-end Top 30 (or 50?). Looking at the comparable list on metacritic, which surveys the whole market, how could we show that Pitchfork controls the market for album reviews? Two things come to mind: 1. If the two lists overlap significantly, this could mean either a. records have an innate quality level which everybody recognizes (with some distortion), b. Someone dictates taste, and Pitchfork is a follower, or c. Pitchfork is the taste leader. 2. To solve the above indeterminacy we would look at variance in reviews for albums Pitchfork has already reviewed vs. album that Pitchfork ignored. Of course the discussion was on a music list so we never actually followed through on it, but maybe someone is looking for a research program on this... We had this discussion last year when Pitchfork came out with its year-end Top 30 (or 50?). Looking at the comparable list on metacritic, which surveys the whole market, how could we show that Pitchfork controls the market for album reviews? Two things come to mind:

1. If the two lists overlap significantly, this could mean either a. records have an innate quality level which everybody recognizes (with some distortion), b. Someone dictates taste, and Pitchfork is a follower, or c. Pitchfork is the taste leader.

2. To solve the above indeterminacy we would look at variance in reviews for albums Pitchfork has already reviewed vs. album that Pitchfork ignored.

Of course the discussion was on a music list so we never actually followed through on it, but maybe someone is looking for a research program on this…

]]> By: Steven Poole http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/09/the-art-mafia/comment-page-1/#comment-174829 Steven Poole Thu, 12 Oct 2006 07:25:50 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/09/the-art-mafia/#comment-174829 James Stevenson puts his finger exactly on the endemic problem with pop-music criticism, in the UK as well as the US. The writers can write about lyrics and hype and history, but most of them can't write about <em>music</em> to save their lives. It's not as though they all have to be Alex Ross writing about Radiohead in the <em>New Yorker</em> (though that was a sublime piece), but they barely even try to evoke what the record <em>sounds like</em>. Of course that's difficult, but you would have thought it's their job. (This does not apply to Paul Morley and a handful of others.) James Stevenson puts his finger exactly on the endemic problem with pop-music criticism, in the UK as well as the US. The writers can write about lyrics and hype and history, but most of them can’t write about music to save their lives. It’s not as though they all have to be Alex Ross writing about Radiohead in the New Yorker (though that was a sublime piece), but they barely even try to evoke what the record sounds like. Of course that’s difficult, but you would have thought it’s their job. (This does not apply to Paul Morley and a handful of others.)

]]> By: bryan http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/09/the-art-mafia/comment-page-1/#comment-174709 bryan Wed, 11 Oct 2006 17:49:24 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/09/the-art-mafia/#comment-174709 for <i>who's</i> read <i>whose</i>. for who’s read whose.

]]> By: jayinbmore http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/09/the-art-mafia/comment-page-1/#comment-174702 jayinbmore Wed, 11 Oct 2006 16:51:05 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/09/the-art-mafia/#comment-174702 Wait a sec. "Babe Rainbow" is the best House of Love album? Wait a sec. “Babe Rainbow” is the best House of Love album?

]]> By: Bryan http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/09/the-art-mafia/comment-page-1/#comment-174607 Bryan Wed, 11 Oct 2006 06:19:50 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/09/the-art-mafia/#comment-174607 I think it needs to be opened to up to question how far your experience of a piece of music is some sort of pure encounter between you and the music. I.e. how far does the thought "what will people who's approval I value think of me for (dis)liking this" enter in to the equation <i>while</i> listening? I have to admit if I hear something and I don't know who it is or what their reputation is I feel a little twinge of nervousness and a little reluctance to judge it. I think it needs to be opened to up to question how far your experience of a piece of music is some sort of pure encounter between you and the music. I.e. how far does the thought “what will people who’s approval I value think of me for (dis)liking this” enter in to the equation while listening? I have to admit if I hear something and I don’t know who it is or what their reputation is I feel a little twinge of nervousness and a little reluctance to judge it.

]]> By: joe o http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/09/the-art-mafia/comment-page-1/#comment-174524 joe o Tue, 10 Oct 2006 20:33:54 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/09/the-art-mafia/#comment-174524 The mafia can be analysed as an economic organization and pitchfork can be analysed as an economic organization, but vibracobra is right, pitchfork is nothing like the mafia. The mafia wants to get rid of or weaken other intermediaries like the state. Pitchfork doesn't do this. It doesn't even rate albums like the rolling stones "a bigger bang". Pitchfork just doesn't care. nl is right that indie bands who are together too long get burned out. Pavement is one of my favorite bands, but on their final tour they were just depressing to watch. The mafia can be analysed as an economic organization and pitchfork can be analysed as an economic organization, but vibracobra is right, pitchfork is nothing like the mafia. The mafia wants to get rid of or weaken other intermediaries like the state. Pitchfork doesn’t do this. It doesn’t even rate albums like the rolling stones “a bigger bang”. Pitchfork just doesn’t care.

nl is right that indie bands who are together too long get burned out. Pavement is one of my favorite bands, but on their final tour they were just depressing to watch.

]]> By: Henry http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/09/the-art-mafia/comment-page-1/#comment-174522 Henry Tue, 10 Oct 2006 19:54:28 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/09/the-art-mafia/#comment-174522 vibracobra,I've lived in Italy for three years, albeit in the center. My major academic area of research for my Ph.D. was the Italian political economy. I'm borrowing my argument from Diego Gambetta, who is perhaps the world's foremost academic authority on the mafia, and has, I understand, enough intimate knowledge of them to have had some quite uncomfortable experiences(he's received a bullet or two in the mail). The comparison I'm drawing isn't entirely serious, but if you don't think that the mafia can be analysed as an economic organization, then you're flat out wrong. vibracobra,I’ve lived in Italy for three years, albeit in the center. My major academic area of research for my Ph.D. was the Italian political economy. I’m borrowing my argument from Diego Gambetta, who is perhaps the world’s foremost academic authority on the mafia, and has, I understand, enough intimate knowledge of them to have had some quite uncomfortable experiences(he’s received a bullet or two in the mail). The comparison I’m drawing isn’t entirely serious, but if you don’t think that the mafia can be analysed as an economic organization, then you’re flat out wrong.

]]> By: 99 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/09/the-art-mafia/comment-page-1/#comment-174513 99 Tue, 10 Oct 2006 18:45:38 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/09/the-art-mafia/#comment-174513 I don't think there are many people who read Pitchfork without an understand about the particular, narrow context in which they operate. And for those who read it uncritically, well, they relish the frission of taking cues from smarmy music critics. In other words, they have more of an interest in that particular hipster moment to moment namechecking than the music. Witness the path of the Artic Monkeys, Clap Your Hands and Say Yeah, etc. Pitchfork is a good place to find new music, but you should never use their ratings as a guide over time. They don't necessarily promote exclusively 'difficult' music, but they do privilege the new. So bands that develop over time might not get the fair shake they deserve. As to Rainer Maria -- well, maybe they have gotten better, but it's not like they aren't just one of a pretty crowded landscape. <em>Long Knives Drawn</em> is about all you need. But at least their time in the sun lasted long than Blonde Redhead. That was like, what, a weekend? I don’t think there are many people who read Pitchfork without an understand about the particular, narrow context in which they operate. And for those who read it uncritically, well, they relish the frission of taking cues from smarmy music critics. In other words, they have more of an interest in that particular hipster moment to moment namechecking than the music. Witness the path of the Artic Monkeys, Clap Your Hands and Say Yeah, etc.

Pitchfork is a good place to find new music, but you should never use their ratings as a guide over time. They don’t necessarily promote exclusively ‘difficult’ music, but they do privilege the new. So bands that develop over time might not get the fair shake they deserve.

As to Rainer Maria—well, maybe they have gotten better, but it’s not like they aren’t just one of a pretty crowded landscape. Long Knives Drawn is about all you need. But at least their time in the sun lasted long than Blonde Redhead. That was like, what, a weekend?

]]> By: Rich B. http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/09/the-art-mafia/comment-page-1/#comment-174511 Rich B. Tue, 10 Oct 2006 18:19:01 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/09/the-art-mafia/#comment-174511 I'm failing to see how a bad review would stop you from at least _listening_ (if only in 30 second Amazon/ iTunes chunks) of the songs of an album by a group you previously liked. If someone I respected told an old (30s) fogey like me that the latest Paul Simon album sucked, I would appear surprised, and then go check it out for myself. Put simply, the theory may work for new groups with no developed fanbase. If a great band with followers gets panned, though, then either the new music sucks, the reviewer will get ignored, or else the "fans" are really more interested in being hip and cutting edge than in listening to good music. I’m failing to see how a bad review would stop you from at least listening (if only in 30 second Amazon/ iTunes chunks) of the songs of an album by a group you previously liked.

If someone I respected told an old (30s) fogey like me that the latest Paul Simon album sucked, I would appear surprised, and then go check it out for myself.

Put simply, the theory may work for new groups with no developed fanbase. If a great band with followers gets panned, though, then either the new music sucks, the reviewer will get ignored, or else the “fans” are really more interested in being hip and cutting edge than in listening to good music.

]]> By: vibracobra http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/09/the-art-mafia/comment-page-1/#comment-174502 vibracobra Tue, 10 Oct 2006 16:29:37 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/09/the-art-mafia/#comment-174502 I'm still trying to wrap my brain around how you've managed to put the Sicilian Mafia and Pitchfork on the same level. Oh right, there's a reason I can't -- having grown up in Sicily in their presence (as opposed to your <i>Sorpranos</i>-addled teenage fantasy), I know the two can never, ever be conflated. I will say the thought of Ryan Schreiber as the Godfather is a pretty funny image. I’m still trying to wrap my brain around how you’ve managed to put the Sicilian Mafia and Pitchfork on the same level. Oh right, there’s a reason I can’t—having grown up in Sicily in their presence (as opposed to your Sorpranos-addled teenage fantasy), I know the two can never, ever be conflated.

I will say the thought of Ryan Schreiber as the Godfather is a pretty funny image.

]]> By: Ginger Yellow http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/09/the-art-mafia/comment-page-1/#comment-174494 Ginger Yellow Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:50:07 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/09/the-art-mafia/#comment-174494 I don't get this idea that Pitchfork has "enormous market power". The percentage of music buyers and listeners who read Pitchfork is tiny, especially compared to those who listen to radio or watch MTV or read the NME or Rolling Stone or whatever. Moreover, the people who read Pitchfork will by definition tend to be more dedicated music fans than the population average and hence are likely to have other sources of opinion, or just first hand knowledge. I don’t get this idea that Pitchfork has “enormous market power”. The percentage of music buyers and listeners who read Pitchfork is tiny, especially compared to those who listen to radio or watch MTV or read the NME or Rolling Stone or whatever. Moreover, the people who read Pitchfork will by definition tend to be more dedicated music fans than the population average and hence are likely to have other sources of opinion, or just first hand knowledge.

]]> By: Doug http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/09/the-art-mafia/comment-page-1/#comment-174463 Doug Tue, 10 Oct 2006 06:39:46 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/09/the-art-mafia/#comment-174463 14: Five-word review of <i>The Hours</i> "Hours? It seemed like days." 10: And then there are reviewers whose tastes are skew to yours, such that what they say about the piece under consideration tells you nothing about what your reaction will be like. Michiko Kakutani in my case. 14: Five-word review of The Hours “Hours? It seemed like days.”

10: And then there are reviewers whose tastes are skew to yours, such that what they say about the piece under consideration tells you nothing about what your reaction will be like. Michiko Kakutani in my case.

]]> By: Christopher M http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/09/the-art-mafia/comment-page-1/#comment-174457 Christopher M Tue, 10 Oct 2006 04:39:52 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/09/the-art-mafia/#comment-174457 mcmanus: i'm not sure i disagree, but don't forget that AMG sells its music reviews to people who <i>sell music</i> -- among other things, they show up in iTunes. Assuming they're making money from that deal, it's a pretty good incentive not to be too harsh. mcmanus: i’m not sure i disagree, but don’t forget that AMG sells its music reviews to people who sell music—among other things, they show up in iTunes. Assuming they’re making money from that deal, it’s a pretty good incentive not to be too harsh.

]]> By: astrongmaybe http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/09/the-art-mafia/comment-page-1/#comment-174452 astrongmaybe Tue, 10 Oct 2006 02:48:01 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/09/the-art-mafia/#comment-174452 <i> After all, this stuff I’m talking about is probably the hardest part of musical criticism. It’s a shame you so rarely get it in pop music writing. </i> Sasha Frere-Jones (I don't know if that's a man or a woman), who writes for the New Yorker is good at describing quite banal pop music in very exact terms, making it imaginable and interesting even to those who've never heard it, and he never resorts to that "It's like an all-girl Brazilian Sugarcubes tribute band suddenly doing a Sun-Ra covers album" comparison thing. After all, this stuff I’m talking about is probably the hardest part of musical criticism. It’s a shame you so rarely get it in pop music writing.

Sasha Frere-Jones (I don’t know if that’s a man or a woman), who writes for the New Yorker is good at describing quite banal pop music in very exact terms, making it imaginable and interesting even to those who’ve never heard it, and he never resorts to that “It’s like an all-girl Brazilian Sugarcubes tribute band suddenly doing a Sun-Ra covers album” comparison thing.

]]> By: NL http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/09/the-art-mafia/comment-page-1/#comment-174441 NL Tue, 10 Oct 2006 00:02:04 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/09/the-art-mafia/#comment-174441 One suspects the tiredness of Rainer Maria is more to blame for the lackluster attendance, a tiredness common in indie bands that have been together too long, and a tiredness which longtime devotees are sometimes blind too. I mean, we should admit that that's possible. Occam and all. They sure did have some great albums back in the day, though. But so did Metallica. One suspects the tiredness of Rainer Maria is more to blame for the lackluster attendance, a tiredness common in indie bands that have been together too long, and a tiredness which longtime devotees are sometimes blind too. I mean, we should admit that that’s possible. Occam and all.

They sure did have some great albums back in the day, though. But so did Metallica.

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