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	<title>Comments on: Turnabout is fair play?</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/10/turnabout-is-fair-play-2/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: astrongmaybe</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/10/turnabout-is-fair-play-2/comment-page-1/#comment-174858</link>
		<dc:creator>astrongmaybe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Oct 2006 15:53:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Not sure whether there has been any deep syntactical effect on German - I&#039;d love to know of any study of it -  but there sure are a ton of asinine loan words. Sometimes the borrowings are very slightly wrong (&quot;und &#039;last not least&#039;...&quot; and &quot;ein Who-Is-Who&quot; bug me more than they should), but what&#039;s unlikeable is mostly the tawdriness of the really visible ones, borrowed from MTV and business jargon more than anywhere else. 

To be fair, sometimes the hybrids can be fantastic: there is, or was, a lounge bar in Berlin called &quot;Scotch and Sofa&quot;, a brilliant name,   but not something a native speaker would come up with; couldn&#039;t say exactly why I think that. I quite like &quot;Handy&quot; for cellphone too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Not sure whether there has been any deep syntactical effect on German &#8211; I&#8217;d love to know of any study of it &#8211;  but there sure are a ton of asinine loan words. Sometimes the borrowings are very slightly wrong (&#8220;und &#8216;last not least&#8217;&#8230;&#8221; and &#8220;ein Who-Is-Who&#8221; bug me more than they should), but what&#8217;s unlikeable is mostly the tawdriness of the really visible ones, borrowed from <span class="caps">MTV</span> and business jargon more than anywhere else.</p>

	<p>To be fair, sometimes the hybrids can be fantastic: there is, or was, a lounge bar in Berlin called &#8220;Scotch and Sofa&#8221;, a brilliant name,   but not something a native speaker would come up with; couldn&#8217;t say exactly why I think that. I quite like &#8220;Handy&#8221; for cellphone too.</p>
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		<title>By: bad Jim</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/10/turnabout-is-fair-play-2/comment-page-1/#comment-174836</link>
		<dc:creator>bad Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Oct 2006 08:23:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/10/turnabout-is-fair-play-2/#comment-174836</guid>
		<description>Actually, I love &quot;Way Out&quot;, although, when a tube station has multiple exits, it would be handy if one was labeled &quot;Far Out&quot;. I even like &quot;Sortie&quot;; it makes me feel like a pilot just for riding the Metro.

My difficulty isn&#039;t so much with &quot;Nooduitgang&quot; as with &quot;Notausgang&quot;. One quickly learns in any German city&#039;s streets that &quot;Ausgang&quot; means &quot;Exit&quot;, but it may be worthwhile to keep in mind that &quot;Notausgang&quot; doesn&#039;t mean &quot;Not an exit&quot;.

The Anglophone Latin preference doesn&#039;t always serve us well. In English, Freud&#039;s plain &quot;es&quot; und &quot;Ich&quot; wound up as &quot;Id&quot; and &quot;Ego&quot;. One might surmise that he would have used Latin if he&#039;d meant to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Actually, I love &#8220;Way Out&#8221;, although, when a tube station has multiple exits, it would be handy if one was labeled &#8220;Far Out&#8221;. I even like &#8220;Sortie&#8221;; it makes me feel like a pilot just for riding the Metro.</p>

	<p>My difficulty isn&#8217;t so much with &#8220;Nooduitgang&#8221; as with &#8220;Notausgang&#8221;. One quickly learns in any German city&#8217;s streets that &#8220;Ausgang&#8221; means &#8220;Exit&#8221;, but it may be worthwhile to keep in mind that &#8220;Notausgang&#8221; doesn&#8217;t mean &#8220;Not an exit&#8221;.</p>

	<p>The Anglophone Latin preference doesn&#8217;t always serve us well. In English, Freud&#8217;s plain &#8220;es&#8221; und &#8220;Ich&#8221; wound up as &#8220;Id&#8221; and &#8220;Ego&#8221;. One might surmise that he would have used Latin if he&#8217;d meant to.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt McIrvin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/10/turnabout-is-fair-play-2/comment-page-1/#comment-174796</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt McIrvin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Oct 2006 02:31:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Anyway, in the UK the sign would say &quot;way out&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Anyway, in the UK the sign would say &#8220;way out&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: KCinDC</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/10/turnabout-is-fair-play-2/comment-page-1/#comment-174791</link>
		<dc:creator>KCinDC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Oct 2006 01:15:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/10/turnabout-is-fair-play-2/#comment-174791</guid>
		<description>Kibnick, I believe the phrase is &quot;sealed beam&quot;, not &quot;shield beam&quot;, and the resulting Hebrew plural is &quot;silbim&quot;.

Bad Jim, I suppose &quot;emergency&quot; is understood in most &quot;exit&quot; signs, but is it really a difference in the languages that causes it to be omitted from the English sign and not the Dutch one? And is plain &quot;uitgang&quot; never found?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Kibnick, I believe the phrase is &#8220;sealed beam&#8221;, not &#8220;shield beam&#8221;, and the resulting Hebrew plural is &#8220;silbim&#8221;.</p>

	<p>Bad Jim, I suppose &#8220;emergency&#8221; is understood in most &#8220;exit&#8221; signs, but is it really a difference in the languages that causes it to be omitted from the English sign and not the Dutch one? And is plain &#8220;uitgang&#8221; never found?</p>
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		<title>By: rilkefan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/10/turnabout-is-fair-play-2/comment-page-1/#comment-174785</link>
		<dc:creator>rilkefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Oct 2006 00:41:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/10/turnabout-is-fair-play-2/#comment-174785</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s my impression that Germans have picked up the unfortunate apostrophe-s-as-plural from us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It&#8217;s my impression that Germans have picked up the unfortunate apostrophe-s-as-plural from us.</p>
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		<title>By: James Wimberley</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/10/turnabout-is-fair-play-2/comment-page-1/#comment-174771</link>
		<dc:creator>James Wimberley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Oct 2006 22:23:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/10/turnabout-is-fair-play-2/#comment-174771</guid>
		<description>The underground train station beneath Frankfurt airport has a sign advertising &lt;em&gt;Traintickets&lt;/em&gt;: as German a compound word as &lt;em&gt;Handy&lt;/em&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The underground train station beneath Frankfurt airport has a sign advertising <em>Traintickets</em>: as German a compound word as <em>Handy</em>.</p>
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		<title>By: JR</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/10/turnabout-is-fair-play-2/comment-page-1/#comment-174739</link>
		<dc:creator>JR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Oct 2006 19:38:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/10/turnabout-is-fair-play-2/#comment-174739</guid>
		<description>Contrast a department store in Amsterdam, with signs idiomatically pointing towards “Nooduitgang”, with one in America using terse Latin: “Exit” 

Yes, but in the US, signs point to &quot;Elevator,&quot; while in Amsterdam they point tersely to &quot;Lift.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Contrast a department store in Amsterdam, with signs idiomatically pointing towards &#8220;Nooduitgang&#8221;, with one in America using terse Latin: &#8220;Exit&#8221;</p>

	<p>Yes, but in the US, signs point to &#8220;Elevator,&#8221; while in Amsterdam they point tersely to &#8220;Lift.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: kibnick</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/10/turnabout-is-fair-play-2/comment-page-1/#comment-174738</link>
		<dc:creator>kibnick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Oct 2006 19:36:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/10/turnabout-is-fair-play-2/#comment-174738</guid>
		<description>In Hebrew, masculine plural is indicated by the suffice &quot;im.&quot;  Years ago, the headlights used in Peugeot automobiles had the trade name &quot;Shieldbeam&quot; marked on the inside of the bulb.  In an Israeli garage I worked in many years ago, the mechanics called a headlight a &quot;sheeldb.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>In Hebrew, masculine plural is indicated by the suffice &#8220;im.&#8221;  Years ago, the headlights used in Peugeot automobiles had the trade name &#8220;Shieldbeam&#8221; marked on the inside of the bulb.  In an Israeli garage I worked in many years ago, the mechanics called a headlight a &#8220;sheeldb.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: pdf23ds</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/10/turnabout-is-fair-play-2/comment-page-1/#comment-174734</link>
		<dc:creator>pdf23ds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Oct 2006 19:15:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/10/turnabout-is-fair-play-2/#comment-174734</guid>
		<description>&quot;This is why educated Romance language speakers [...] find the adoption of English vocabulary so distressing&quot;

I don&#039;t think this is it. I think the only reason it&#039;s distressing is because it&#039;s part of what is seen as a very likely, if gradual, death of their language in favor of English. Educated speakers of any language will allways have there pet peeves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;This is why educated Romance language speakers [...] find the adoption of English vocabulary so distressing&#8221;</p>

	<p>I don&#8217;t think this is it. I think the only reason it&#8217;s distressing is because it&#8217;s part of what is seen as a very likely, if gradual, death of their language in favor of English. Educated speakers of any language will allways have there pet peeves.</p>
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		<title>By: pdf23ds</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/10/turnabout-is-fair-play-2/comment-page-1/#comment-174732</link>
		<dc:creator>pdf23ds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Oct 2006 19:11:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/10/turnabout-is-fair-play-2/#comment-174732</guid>
		<description>kid bitzer, I do believe that &quot;una problema&quot; was borrowed from Mexican Spanish, not from Italian. But maybe it was borrowed from both. The point was (I think) that English speakers don&#039;t complain about how their langauge has so many loan words, so why should Italians? But that&#039;s not a good point anyway---English speakers in the past *have* complained about that, and don&#039;t do so as much any longer only because English is so dominant internationally.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>kid bitzer, I do believe that &#8220;una problema&#8221; was borrowed from Mexican Spanish, not from Italian. But maybe it was borrowed from both. The point was (I think) that English speakers don&#8217;t complain about how their langauge has so many loan words, so why should Italians? But that&#8217;s not a good point anyway&#8212;-English speakers in the past <strong>have</strong> complained about that, and don&#8217;t do so as much any longer only because English is so dominant internationally.</p>
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		<title>By: JR</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/10/turnabout-is-fair-play-2/comment-page-1/#comment-174727</link>
		<dc:creator>JR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Oct 2006 18:52:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/10/turnabout-is-fair-play-2/#comment-174727</guid>
		<description>English originated when Anglo-Saxon speakers and Norman French speakers created a language that is neither Romance nor quite Germanic.  So English has always vocabulary from more than one language.  This means that English speakers are comfortable with words whose roots we don&#039;t know.  Since we don&#039;t care whether we know a word&#039;s root or not, English has always been hospitable to words from other languages.

Romance languages work differently.  An educated Romance language speaker expects to know the root of any word, and how that word relates to all other words with the same root.  All words have a family, and each family&#039;s pedigree is apparent. A foreign word sticks out like an ugly, unwanted orphan.

This is why educated Romance language speakers - the French especially, but also Italians and Spaniards - find the adoption of English vocabulary so distressing, and also why native English speakers find their distress unintelligible, and therefore ridiculous.

PS- Mike, you&#039;ll be interested to know that &quot;cookie&quot; came into American English from the Dutch settlers of the Hudson Valley.  So when cookie eventually replaces biscuit entirely - as it will do - you can take comfort in the fact that it&#039;s a European word after all.

PPS - I put that &quot;do&quot; in there to make you feel comfortable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>English originated when Anglo-Saxon speakers and Norman French speakers created a language that is neither Romance nor quite Germanic.  So English has always vocabulary from more than one language.  This means that English speakers are comfortable with words whose roots we don&#8217;t know.  Since we don&#8217;t care whether we know a word&#8217;s root or not, English has always been hospitable to words from other languages.</p>

	<p>Romance languages work differently.  An educated Romance language speaker expects to know the root of any word, and how that word relates to all other words with the same root.  All words have a family, and each family&#8217;s pedigree is apparent. A foreign word sticks out like an ugly, unwanted orphan.</p>

	<p>This is why educated Romance language speakers &#8211; the French especially, but also Italians and Spaniards &#8211; find the adoption of English vocabulary so distressing, and also why native English speakers find their distress unintelligible, and therefore ridiculous.</p>

	<p>PS- Mike, you&#8217;ll be interested to know that &#8220;cookie&#8221; came into American English from the Dutch settlers of the Hudson Valley.  So when cookie eventually replaces biscuit entirely &#8211; as it will do &#8211; you can take comfort in the fact that it&#8217;s a European word after all.</p>

	<p><span class="caps">PPS </span>- I put that &#8220;do&#8221; in there to make you feel comfortable.</p>
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		<title>By: lemuel pitkin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/10/turnabout-is-fair-play-2/comment-page-1/#comment-174704</link>
		<dc:creator>lemuel pitkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Oct 2006 17:05:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>In Argentina (and maybe in other Spanish-speaking coutnries, I don&#039;t know), it&#039;s common to adopt use English words with an &quot;ing&quot; ending, even where they would not be used that way in English. For example, a campground is a &quot;camping,&quot; a parking lot is a &quot;parking,&quot; etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>In Argentina (and maybe in other Spanish-speaking coutnries, I don&#8217;t know), it&#8217;s common to adopt use English words with an &#8220;ing&#8221; ending, even where they would not be used that way in English. For example, a campground is a &#8220;camping,&#8221; a parking lot is a &#8220;parking,&#8221; etc.</p>
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		<title>By: eweininger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/10/turnabout-is-fair-play-2/comment-page-1/#comment-174681</link>
		<dc:creator>eweininger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Oct 2006 15:47:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/10/turnabout-is-fair-play-2/#comment-174681</guid>
		<description>Fucked up the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/Debt-Pleasure-Novel-John-Lanchester/dp/0312420366/sr=1-2/qid=1160581558/ref=pd_bbs_2/104-2997098-3482363?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;link&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Fucked up the <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Debt-Pleasure-Novel-John-Lanchester/dp/0312420366/sr=1-2/qid=1160581558/ref=pd_bbs_2/104-2997098-3482363?ie=UTF8&#038;s=books" rel="nofollow">link</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: eweininger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/10/turnabout-is-fair-play-2/comment-page-1/#comment-174679</link>
		<dc:creator>eweininger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Oct 2006 15:34:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;i&gt;It indeed is true, as a prior commentor noted, that a flop and a fiasco are not the same thing.&lt;/i&gt;

See &lt;a&gt;Tarquin&#039;s fine meditation&lt;/a&gt; on the difference between a &lt;i&gt;fiasco&lt;/i&gt;, a &lt;i&gt;debacle&lt;/i&gt;, and a &lt;i&gt;fuck-up&lt;/i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>It indeed is true, as a prior commentor noted, that a flop and a fiasco are not the same thing.</i></p>

	<p>See <a>Tarquin&#8217;s fine meditation</a> on the difference between a <i>fiasco</i>, a <i>debacle</i>, and a <i>fuck-up</i>.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/10/turnabout-is-fair-play-2/comment-page-1/#comment-174673</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Oct 2006 15:16:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/10/turnabout-is-fair-play-2/#comment-174673</guid>
		<description>It indeed is true, as a prior commentor noted, that a flop and a fiasco are not the same thing.  

An example to illustrate the difference:
A movie is a &quot;flop&quot; if it does poorly at the box office but there are no other lasting consequences.
A movie is a &quot;fiasco&quot; if it does poorly at the box office, the studio executives responsible for approving it are fired, its failure becomes a staple of late-night comedy, and the actors find it very hard to get other parts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It indeed is true, as a prior commentor noted, that a flop and a fiasco are not the same thing.</p>

	<p>An example to illustrate the difference:<br />
A movie is a &#8220;flop&#8221; if it does poorly at the box office but there are no other lasting consequences.<br />
A movie is a &#8220;fiasco&#8221; if it does poorly at the box office, the studio executives responsible for approving it are fired, its failure becomes a staple of late-night comedy, and the actors find it very hard to get other parts.</p>
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