<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: GMail ads</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/13/gmail-ads/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/13/gmail-ads/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 21:53:32 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: fyreflye</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/13/gmail-ads/comment-page-1/#comment-175769</link>
		<dc:creator>fyreflye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Oct 2006 22:55:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/13/gmail-ads/#comment-175769</guid>
		<description>If you&#039;re seriously concerned about GMail ads switch to Firefox and download its Adblock extension; it will kill ads on Google Groups, GMail, and just about anyplace online you don&#039;t want to see them.  Unfortunately I can&#039;t guarantee that your mail isn&#039;t still being read and that you just can&#039;t see the resulting ads.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If you&#8217;re seriously concerned about GMail ads switch to Firefox and download its Adblock extension; it will kill ads on Google Groups, GMail, and just about anyplace online you don&#8217;t want to see them.  Unfortunately I can&#8217;t guarantee that your mail isn&#8217;t still being read and that you just can&#8217;t see the resulting ads.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Peter Clay</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/13/gmail-ads/comment-page-1/#comment-175663</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Clay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Oct 2006 14:37:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/13/gmail-ads/#comment-175663</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m trying to coin the term &quot;data sharecropping&quot; to refer to the practice of keeping your vital personal data (such as email) on a system you don&#039;t own and have no rights over, such as Gmail.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m trying to coin the term &#8220;data sharecropping&#8221; to refer to the practice of keeping your vital personal data (such as email) on a system you don&#8217;t own and have no rights over, such as Gmail.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Eszter</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/13/gmail-ads/comment-page-1/#comment-175656</link>
		<dc:creator>Eszter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Oct 2006 14:12:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/13/gmail-ads/#comment-175656</guid>
		<description>Raven, thanks for putting CT on the &quot;watch closely&quot; list (uhm, not that it wasn&#039;t on it already, I suspect:).

Regarding more general comments about my observation, I realize that the algorithms are not paying close attention to context, thus the resulting ad I mentioned. My point was to note that it is a direction that seems would be fruitful to follow. It seems like so many people are working at these companies (like Google, but others as well), one would imagine some of these products may improve over time.  I suspect they will, they just haven&#039;t gotten too far as of yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Raven, thanks for putting CT on the &#8220;watch closely&#8221; list (uhm, not that it wasn&#8217;t on it already, I suspect:).</p>

	<p>Regarding more general comments about my observation, I realize that the algorithms are not paying close attention to context, thus the resulting ad I mentioned. My point was to note that it is a direction that seems would be fruitful to follow. It seems like so many people are working at these companies (like Google, but others as well), one would imagine some of these products may improve over time.  I suspect they will, they just haven&#8217;t gotten too far as of yet.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Raven</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/13/gmail-ads/comment-page-1/#comment-175627</link>
		<dc:creator>Raven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Oct 2006 10:12:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/13/gmail-ads/#comment-175627</guid>
		<description>I expect that Google Groups (the Usenet newsgroup archive) uses the same algorithm as Gmail to attach ads to posts and threads.  I also wouldn&#039;t be surprised to learn that the national-security apparatus does its initial quick scans of Internet traffic using tools as rough and clumsy, though with different search targets than advertiser keywords.

With lots of time to &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;kill, the president&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt; of our club suggested &quot;adopting&quot; a stretch of road to clean.  Other PR ideas had &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;bombed&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt;, but he said getting our name on the roadside sign would keep our recognition levels &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;shooting&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt; higher every week, as people would &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;drive by&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt; it over and &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;over. &quot;Throw&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt; out better ideas if you&#039;ve got &#039;em.&quot;  We didn&#039;t, so we &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;spent rounds&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt; bagging trash each week, from cans and paper to road-&lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;kill.  The president&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt; praised our efforts every time he gave out assignments, but eventually we compared notes and noticed that none of us ever had him sharing our rounds.  After that, our club participation &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;dropped.  The bomb&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt; this time was a &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;time bomb&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt;: the time it took to realize he&#039;d volunteered us, not himself.

Oh... hi, guys!  How ya doin&#039;?  My, what pretty, shiny badges you have!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I expect that Google Groups (the Usenet newsgroup archive) uses the same algorithm as Gmail to attach ads to posts and threads.  I also wouldn&#8217;t be surprised to learn that the national-security apparatus does its initial quick scans of Internet traffic using tools as rough and clumsy, though with different search targets than advertiser keywords.</p>

	<p>With lots of time to <b><i>kill, the president</i></b> of our club suggested &#8220;adopting&#8221; a stretch of road to clean.  Other PR ideas had <b><i>bombed</i></b>, but he said getting our name on the roadside sign would keep our recognition levels <b><i>shooting</i></b> higher every week, as people would <b><i>drive by</i></b> it over and <b><i>over. &#8220;Throw</i></b> out better ideas if you&#8217;ve got &#8216;em.&#8221;  We didn&#8217;t, so we <b><i>spent rounds</i></b> bagging trash each week, from cans and paper to road-<b><i>kill.  The president</i></b> praised our efforts every time he gave out assignments, but eventually we compared notes and noticed that none of us ever had him sharing our rounds.  After that, our club participation <b><i>dropped.  The bomb</i></b> this time was a <b><i>time bomb</i></b>: the time it took to realize he&#8217;d volunteered us, not himself.</p>

	<p>Oh&#8230; hi, guys!  How ya doin&#8217;?  My, what pretty, shiny badges you have!</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Raven</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/13/gmail-ads/comment-page-1/#comment-175566</link>
		<dc:creator>Raven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Oct 2006 00:27:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/13/gmail-ads/#comment-175566</guid>
		<description>No doubt the word-pair &quot;Thai food&quot; was sufficient to bring up ads related to &quot;Thai food&quot; (as in Thai restaurants).  The context was not considered, and of course in the process there was no sentience that could possibly have considered it, since this only amounted to a search/match algorithm.

You could have written, &quot;I &lt;i&gt;hate&lt;/i&gt; Thai food!  I &lt;i&gt;loathe and despise&lt;/i&gt; Thai food!  I won&#039;t go within 100 miles of a city that has Thai food anywhere within its borders!  I&#039;ll go on a rampage of mass murder if anyone ever again &lt;i&gt;mentions&lt;/i&gt; Thai food to me!&quot;

And you know that Gmail would, accordingly, attach  some sort of ad for Thai food.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>No doubt the word-pair &#8220;Thai food&#8221; was sufficient to bring up ads related to &#8220;Thai food&#8221; (as in Thai restaurants).  The context was not considered, and of course in the process there was no sentience that could possibly have considered it, since this only amounted to a search/match algorithm.</p>

	<p>You could have written, &#8220;I <i>hate</i> Thai food!  I <i>loathe and despise</i> Thai food!  I won&#8217;t go within 100 miles of a city that has Thai food anywhere within its borders!  I&#8217;ll go on a rampage of mass murder if anyone ever again <i>mentions</i> Thai food to me!&#8221;</p>

	<p>And you know that Gmail would, accordingly, attach  some sort of ad for Thai food.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jacob Christensen</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/13/gmail-ads/comment-page-1/#comment-175497</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob Christensen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Oct 2006 15:06:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/13/gmail-ads/#comment-175497</guid>
		<description>Google&#039;s ads can often be incredibly amusing. I noted that the confirmation of a ticket reservation for the Opera in Frankfurt led Google to believe that I wanted to emigrate to the U.S.

(The opera in question was Smetana&#039;s &lt;em&gt;The Bartered Bride&lt;/em&gt;, in case you wonder).

Inspired by an earlier post here on CT, I bought Sheri Berman&#039;s &lt;em&gt;Primacy of Politics&lt;/em&gt;. When Amazon sent its shipping message to me, Google took that as a cue to offer investments in Slovakian property.

Huh?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Google&#8217;s ads can often be incredibly amusing. I noted that the confirmation of a ticket reservation for the Opera in Frankfurt led Google to believe that I wanted to emigrate to the U.S.</p>

	<p>(The opera in question was Smetana&#8217;s <em>The Bartered Bride</em>, in case you wonder).</p>

	<p>Inspired by an earlier post here on CT, I bought Sheri Berman&#8217;s <em>Primacy of Politics</em>. When Amazon sent its shipping message to me, Google took that as a cue to offer investments in Slovakian property.</p>

	<p>Huh?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: stuart</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/13/gmail-ads/comment-page-1/#comment-175455</link>
		<dc:creator>stuart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Oct 2006 02:14:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/13/gmail-ads/#comment-175455</guid>
		<description>I think you might be overestimating what Google (and other ad providers) are doing with this context sensitive ad stuff. The don&#039;t understand the content of the page/email, and they aren&#039;t attempting to process it, they are essentially doing a cross reference search between the content and their list of advertising terms that people are paying to match ads to and providing you with (presumably) the highest $ value match - although it might also weight how many matches, and more complex terms as higher, so that &#039;Thai&#039; might by default give you Thai holiday, but &#039;Thai food&#039; would give the restaraunt even if the holiday people would pay a little more, because its a better match (and hence more likely to click through).

Now if some health site decided to buy the adword &#039;Thai food allergy&#039; (unlikely they would get that specific), or maybe just &#039;food allergy&#039;, then you might get their ad instead if you wrote the same thing again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think you might be overestimating what Google (and other ad providers) are doing with this context sensitive ad stuff. The don&#8217;t understand the content of the page/email, and they aren&#8217;t attempting to process it, they are essentially doing a cross reference search between the content and their list of advertising terms that people are paying to match ads to and providing you with (presumably) the highest $ value match &#8211; although it might also weight how many matches, and more complex terms as higher, so that &#8216;Thai&#8217; might by default give you Thai holiday, but &#8216;Thai food&#8217; would give the restaraunt even if the holiday people would pay a little more, because its a better match (and hence more likely to click through).</p>

	<p>Now if some health site decided to buy the adword &#8216;Thai food allergy&#8217; (unlikely they would get that specific), or maybe just &#8216;food allergy&#8217;, then you might get their ad instead if you wrote the same thing again.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Lyrebird</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/13/gmail-ads/comment-page-1/#comment-175417</link>
		<dc:creator>Lyrebird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Oct 2006 20:30:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/13/gmail-ads/#comment-175417</guid>
		<description>Language identification (even for all-roman-letter languages) is one of the easiest problems to solve w/the techniques mentioned in reply #6.  A smidgen of Italian versus Spanish can be accurately pegged; Hungarian is that much easier because of cool consonant sequences like zs and stuff.

Knowing the content of any text proposition is MUCH HARDER than detecting its topic, thus selling of Thai restaurants to someone who just said she can&#039;t eat Thai food.  (Like that wonderful Far Side cartoon about what dogs hear: &quot;blah blah blah blah Ginger blah blah&quot;...)

My fave (ugh) is when gmail gives me garbage dating advice books when my classmate has just written to me about her meeting with a Faculty Senate rep, should she call him, etc.

Cheers!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Language identification (even for all-roman-letter languages) is one of the easiest problems to solve w/the techniques mentioned in reply #6.  A smidgen of Italian versus Spanish can be accurately pegged; Hungarian is that much easier because of cool consonant sequences like zs and stuff.</p>

	<p>Knowing the content of any text proposition is <span class="caps">MUCH HARDER</span> than detecting its topic, thus selling of Thai restaurants to someone who just said she can&#8217;t eat Thai food.  (Like that wonderful Far Side cartoon about what dogs hear: &#8220;blah blah blah blah Ginger blah blah&#8221;&#8230;)</p>

	<p>My fave (ugh) is when gmail gives me garbage dating advice books when my classmate has just written to me about her meeting with a Faculty Senate rep, should she call him, etc.</p>

	<p>Cheers!</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Eszter</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/13/gmail-ads/comment-page-1/#comment-175402</link>
		<dc:creator>Eszter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Oct 2006 19:33:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/13/gmail-ads/#comment-175402</guid>
		<description>Sorry I&#039;m late to this discussion, I was on the road. First, my messages in Hungarian rarely include the accented letters. They&#039;d be way too tedious to type and a solid level of Hungarian knowledge makes them unnecessary. That is, with the occasional amusing exception, you can guess what the word is supposed to be without the correct letters. 

Regarding &quot;Thai food allergy&quot;, you&#039;re right tps12 that it&#039;s not all Thai food. The problem is that I haven&#039;t been able to figure what it is about Thai food that I am &lt;i&gt;extremely&lt;/i&gt; allergic to. I can smell it and certainly taste it (although avoid it now), but I don&#039;t know what it is. It is not peanuts and it is not coconuts (as I can eat both on its own), but it is something sweet so it may be a sauce that has one of those. 

Incidentally, I &lt;i&gt;really&lt;/i&gt; don&#039;t appreciate it when people suggest that I call it an allergy even though it&#039;s simply a dislike. I assure you that I have very obvious and visible reactions (not to mention the pain associated with it), which I think qualifies as an allergy.  I used to like Thai food, this all started happening a few years ago.

Moriarty - my point was that given the allergy, there&#039;s just no way I&#039;m going to be interested in clicking on a link advertising a Thai restaurant. The word &quot;allergy&quot; was right next to the words &quot;Thai food&quot; so the link was there in the message.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sorry I&#8217;m late to this discussion, I was on the road. First, my messages in Hungarian rarely include the accented letters. They&#8217;d be way too tedious to type and a solid level of Hungarian knowledge makes them unnecessary. That is, with the occasional amusing exception, you can guess what the word is supposed to be without the correct letters.</p>

	<p>Regarding &#8220;Thai food allergy&#8221;, you&#8217;re right tps12 that it&#8217;s not all Thai food. The problem is that I haven&#8217;t been able to figure what it is about Thai food that I am <i>extremely</i> allergic to. I can smell it and certainly taste it (although avoid it now), but I don&#8217;t know what it is. It is not peanuts and it is not coconuts (as I can eat both on its own), but it is something sweet so it may be a sauce that has one of those.</p>

	<p>Incidentally, I <i>really</i> don&#8217;t appreciate it when people suggest that I call it an allergy even though it&#8217;s simply a dislike. I assure you that I have very obvious and visible reactions (not to mention the pain associated with it), which I think qualifies as an allergy.  I used to like Thai food, this all started happening a few years ago.</p>

	<p>Moriarty &#8211; my point was that given the allergy, there&#8217;s just no way I&#8217;m going to be interested in clicking on a link advertising a Thai restaurant. The word &#8220;allergy&#8221; was right next to the words &#8220;Thai food&#8221; so the link was there in the message.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: yoyo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/13/gmail-ads/comment-page-1/#comment-175331</link>
		<dc:creator>yoyo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:30:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/13/gmail-ads/#comment-175331</guid>
		<description>Well, speaking of languages and thai, gmail isn&#039;t superb with the language identification. Every day i get 3-4 emails in some language that appears to be thai script. THis despite the fact i religiously mark them as spam, and write or read emails in anything other than the very occasional french.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, speaking of languages and thai, gmail isn&#8217;t superb with the language identification. Every day i get 3-4 emails in some language that appears to be thai script. THis despite the fact i religiously mark them as spam, and write or read emails in anything other than the very occasional french.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/13/gmail-ads/comment-page-1/#comment-175297</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Oct 2006 19:06:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/13/gmail-ads/#comment-175297</guid>
		<description>Email, webpages, and the like specifiy a language in the metadata of the message so that the proper character set encoding may be used.

The location data comes from the internet address of the computer from which you&#039;re requesting the page at the moment. (although, for this same reason, Google has a very good idea of where and when you live, work and travel)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Email, webpages, and the like specifiy a language in the metadata of the message so that the proper character set encoding may be used.</p>

	<p>The location data comes from the internet address of the computer from which you&#8217;re requesting the page at the moment. (although, for this same reason, Google has a very good idea of where and when you live, work and travel)</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Brock</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/13/gmail-ads/comment-page-1/#comment-175292</link>
		<dc:creator>Brock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Oct 2006 18:43:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/13/gmail-ads/#comment-175292</guid>
		<description>Interesting trick that was pointed out me: if you want to kill the ads in an entire Gmail thread, all you have to do is use the word &quot;funeral&quot; in a message.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Interesting trick that was pointed out me: if you want to kill the ads in an entire Gmail thread, all you have to do is use the word &#8220;funeral&#8221; in a message.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: etat</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/13/gmail-ads/comment-page-1/#comment-175270</link>
		<dc:creator>etat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Oct 2006 17:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/13/gmail-ads/#comment-175270</guid>
		<description>Is there an unstated theme here about having Google &#039;listen in&#039; on your email conversation? You know how it is; you&#039;re having a conversation on your mobile phone about something, when a passerby interrupts to give you some relevant bit of information. We&#039;re all thrilled by those chance encounters, right? So we&#039;re even happier to expect it of our friend Google.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Is there an unstated theme here about having Google &#8216;listen in&#8217; on your email conversation? You know how it is; you&#8217;re having a conversation on your mobile phone about something, when a passerby interrupts to give you some relevant bit of information. We&#8217;re all thrilled by those chance encounters, right? So we&#8217;re even happier to expect it of our friend Google.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/13/gmail-ads/comment-page-1/#comment-175256</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Oct 2006 16:44:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/13/gmail-ads/#comment-175256</guid>
		<description>I have my students email essays to my gmail address. Often there&#039;s hardly any text (&#039;here&#039;s my essay&#039;), but I still get ads for online essay banks...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I have my students email essays to my gmail address. Often there&#8217;s hardly any text (&#8216;here&#8217;s my essay&#8217;), but I still get ads for online essay banks&#8230;</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: moriarty</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/13/gmail-ads/comment-page-1/#comment-175253</link>
		<dc:creator>moriarty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Oct 2006 16:38:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/13/gmail-ads/#comment-175253</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t understand the question. Even if in this case the reference to Thai restauarants was negative, in most cases it will be positive. That&#039;s the way it&#039;s supposed to work. They wouldn&#039;t expect every ad placement to be spot on. You don&#039;t need to win &#039;em all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t understand the question. Even if in this case the reference to Thai restauarants was negative, in most cases it will be positive. That&#8217;s the way it&#8217;s supposed to work. They wouldn&#8217;t expect every ad placement to be spot on. You don&#8217;t need to win &#8216;em all.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

<!-- Performance optimized by W3 Total Cache. Learn more: http://www.w3-edge.com/wordpress-plugins/

Minified using disk: basic
Page Caching using disk: enhanced

Served from: crookedtimber.org @ 2012-02-13 03:09:57 -->
