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	<title>Comments on: European Russia</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/european-russia/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: doug</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/european-russia/comment-page-1/#comment-177039</link>
		<dc:creator>doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Oct 2006 23:33:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/european-russia/#comment-177039</guid>
		<description>Regards the &#039;grammar&#039; thread here,  see http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003711.html#more</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Regards the &#8216;grammar&#8217; thread here,  see <a href="http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003711.html#more" rel="nofollow">http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003711.html#more</a></p>
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		<title>By: Stevenkarmi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/european-russia/comment-page-1/#comment-177036</link>
		<dc:creator>Stevenkarmi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Oct 2006 22:50:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/european-russia/#comment-177036</guid>
		<description>And now the report--published in today&#039;s NY Times--that Russia has been leading the world in sales of weapons and other military technologies to &quot;developing&quot; countries. 

Recent Russian immigrants are leaving Israel in large numbers (mostly those who are not &#039;legally&#039; Jewish, primarily for Germany and Poland.  

Russia is in a very tough spot, caught between the U.S. and China in the emergence of the 21st century balance of Superpowers. They are maneuvering themselves rather clumsily, like half-educated drunks stumbling across the world stage. It is a very dangerous situation. 

Give them a small role in demilitarizing both North Korea and Iran (i.e. pulling down those regimes) and then...

a serious effort at democratizing the Russian regime. How? God knows, but it has to involve the emmigrants returning with more than just money and molotov cocktails on their minds! I would like to see a study done of the civic and social attitudes of Russian emmigrant high school and university students in eastern and central Europe--and Israel. Much is at stake.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>And now the report&#8212;published in today&#8217;s <span class="caps">NY </span>Times&#8212;that Russia has been leading the world in sales of weapons and other military technologies to &#8220;developing&#8221; countries.</p>

	<p>Recent Russian immigrants are leaving Israel in large numbers (mostly those who are not &#8216;legally&#8217; Jewish, primarily for Germany and Poland.</p>

	<p>Russia is in a very tough spot, caught between the U.S. and China in the emergence of the 21st century balance of Superpowers. They are maneuvering themselves rather clumsily, like half-educated drunks stumbling across the world stage. It is a very dangerous situation.</p>

	<p>Give them a small role in demilitarizing both North Korea and Iran (i.e. pulling down those regimes) and then&#8230;</p>

	<p>a serious effort at democratizing the Russian regime. How? God knows, but it has to involve the emmigrants returning with more than just money and molotov cocktails on their minds! I would like to see a study done of the civic and social attitudes of Russian emmigrant high school and university students in eastern and central Europe&#8212;and Israel. Much is at stake.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/european-russia/comment-page-1/#comment-177007</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Oct 2006 03:43:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/european-russia/#comment-177007</guid>
		<description>&quot;Russia, as Doug says, sees itself as an equal to the EU.&quot;

True, but at least three current members see themselves as being greater than or equal to the rest put together (or have only abandoned such pretensions in the recent past).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Russia, as Doug says, sees itself as an equal to the EU.&#8221;</p>

	<p>True, but at least three current members see themselves as being greater than or equal to the rest put together (or have only abandoned such pretensions in the recent past).</p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin Nelson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/european-russia/comment-page-1/#comment-177003</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin Nelson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Oct 2006 01:38:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/european-russia/#comment-177003</guid>
		<description>Dearieme, I think the main argument against prescriptivism is that it offers such a lack of stimulating, interesting, and convincing reasons for considering something grammatical or ungrammatical. For instance, if the prescriptivist were to say, &quot;that&#039;s tosh&quot; or &quot;not ok&quot;, one can easily rebut with the equally convincing &quot;nah&quot; and &quot;sure &#039;tis&quot;.

This is not to beat up on prescription in general. I&#039;m quite sympathetic to *lexical* prescriptivism, for example. Historical usage gets to weigh up against popular usage, and the former isn&#039;t necessarily destined to be subverted by the latter (and nor should be feel ourselves obliged to help that process along).

I just wanted to reaffirm the fact that, if I had a girlfriend, then it would be because I would previously have made a solemn vow that me and her would not have this kind of conversation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Dearieme, I think the main argument against prescriptivism is that it offers such a lack of stimulating, interesting, and convincing reasons for considering something grammatical or ungrammatical. For instance, if the prescriptivist were to say, &#8220;that&#8217;s tosh&#8221; or &#8220;not ok&#8221;, one can easily rebut with the equally convincing &#8220;nah&#8221; and &#8220;sure &#8216;tis&#8221;.</p>

	<p>This is not to beat up on prescription in general. I&#8217;m quite sympathetic to <strong>lexical</strong> prescriptivism, for example. Historical usage gets to weigh up against popular usage, and the former isn&#8217;t necessarily destined to be subverted by the latter (and nor should be feel ourselves obliged to help that process along).</p>

	<p>I just wanted to reaffirm the fact that, if I had a girlfriend, then it would be because I would previously have made a solemn vow that me and her would not have this kind of conversation.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/european-russia/comment-page-1/#comment-176987</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Oct 2006 18:48:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/european-russia/#comment-176987</guid>
		<description>I blame Old Europe. They should have found more distinctive names for their two courts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I blame Old Europe. They should have found more distinctive names for their two courts.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/european-russia/comment-page-1/#comment-176982</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Oct 2006 18:06:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/european-russia/#comment-176982</guid>
		<description>Also in the final sentence you may want to put a comma before &quot;and so on&quot;, unless you&#039;re asking for pointers to various things, &quot;further reading&quot; being one of them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Also in the final sentence you may want to put a comma before &#8220;and so on&#8221;, unless you&#8217;re asking for pointers to various things, &#8220;further reading&#8221; being one of them.</p>
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		<title>By: marcel</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/european-russia/comment-page-1/#comment-176979</link>
		<dc:creator>marcel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Oct 2006 17:53:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/european-russia/#comment-176979</guid>
		<description>JQ: You missed the second occurrence of &quot;than me&quot; (the one in the final sentence).

(I like this getting in first - it makes a successful hijacking of the thread much more likely - hee hee.)

The language pedant strikes again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>JQ: You missed the second occurrence of &#8220;than me&#8221; (the one in the final sentence).</p>

	<p>(I like this getting in first &#8211; it makes a successful hijacking of the thread much more likely &#8211; hee hee.)</p>

	<p>The language pedant strikes again.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/european-russia/comment-page-1/#comment-176977</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Oct 2006 17:28:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/european-russia/#comment-176977</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s &quot;me and me girlfriend&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It&#8217;s &#8220;me and me girlfriend&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: JR</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/european-russia/comment-page-1/#comment-176976</link>
		<dc:creator>JR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Oct 2006 17:17:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/european-russia/#comment-176976</guid>
		<description>#2-
&quot;Me like breadsticks&quot; - not ok
&quot;Me and my girlfriend like breadsticks&quot; - ok
How about:
&quot;Me and my girlfriend? We like breadksticks&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>#2-<br />
&#8220;Me like breadsticks&#8221; &#8211; not ok<br />
&#8220;Me and my girlfriend like breadsticks&#8221; &#8211; ok<br />
How about:<br />
&#8220;Me and my girlfriend? We like breadksticks&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: dearieme</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/european-russia/comment-page-1/#comment-176975</link>
		<dc:creator>dearieme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Oct 2006 17:13:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/european-russia/#comment-176975</guid>
		<description>&quot;than me&quot; is not only legit, but surely massively preferable - who on earth invented the cock-and-bull story about a [do] that&#039;s &quot;understood&quot;?  &quot;me and my girlfriend&quot;, on the other hand, is tosh.

And who invented the linguists&#039; quasi-religious doctrine about its being evil to prescribe?  And do they apply it when bringing up their own children?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;than me&#8221; is not only legit, but surely massively preferable &#8211; who on earth invented the cock-and-bull story about a [do] that&#8217;s &#8220;understood&#8221;?  &#8220;me and my girlfriend&#8221;, on the other hand, is tosh.</p>

	<p>And who invented the linguists&#8217; quasi-religious doctrine about its being evil to prescribe?  And do they apply it when bringing up their own children?</p>
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		<title>By: Anderson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/european-russia/comment-page-1/#comment-176962</link>
		<dc:creator>Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Oct 2006 14:33:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/european-russia/#comment-176962</guid>
		<description>Poor Russians, having to go to an international court to seek justice for violations of law by their government.

I&#039;m so glad that America has no such problem, and that Rumsfeld, Addington, and Yoo have all been indicted in the D.C. district court.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Poor Russians, having to go to an international court to seek justice for violations of law by their government.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m so glad that America has no such problem, and that Rumsfeld, Addington, and Yoo have all been indicted in the D.C. district court.</p>
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		<title>By: jallabo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/european-russia/comment-page-1/#comment-176957</link>
		<dc:creator>jallabo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Oct 2006 13:15:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/european-russia/#comment-176957</guid>
		<description>Full Russian membership in the EU is certainly not an option within the forseeable timeframe. But some form of limited associated membership (mainly on economic matters) might be very well achievable in the short to medium term. As for the Chinese-Russian relationship: If Chinas economic modernization continues on a path similar to those taken by Japan, Taiwan or South Korea, and considering Russias bleak demographic outlook, by 2050 this relationship would look in terms of power distribution a lot like the current one between the USA and Canada: Around 1400 million wealthy Chinese facing around 100 million Russian whose overwhelming majority live in Europe. Russia might get prosperous from selling the riches of Siberia to China, but they would be very much the junior partner in any form of strategic relationship.
 I am not sure if such a scenario would be more palatable to the Russian elites than a theoretical full integration into the European framework.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Full Russian membership in the EU is certainly not an option within the forseeable timeframe. But some form of limited associated membership (mainly on economic matters) might be very well achievable in the short to medium term. As for the Chinese-Russian relationship: If Chinas economic modernization continues on a path similar to those taken by Japan, Taiwan or South Korea, and considering Russias bleak demographic outlook, by 2050 this relationship would look in terms of power distribution a lot like the current one between the <span class="caps">USA</span> and Canada: Around 1400 million wealthy Chinese facing around 100 million Russian whose overwhelming majority live in Europe. Russia might get prosperous from selling the riches of Siberia to China, but they would be very much the junior partner in any form of strategic relationship.<br />
I am not sure if such a scenario would be more palatable to the Russian elites than a theoretical full integration into the European framework.</p>
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		<title>By: chris y</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/european-russia/comment-page-1/#comment-176944</link>
		<dc:creator>chris y</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:58:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/european-russia/#comment-176944</guid>
		<description>#4. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.slibe.com/image/74093e76-googlein20years_/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here, John&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>#4. <a href="http://www.slibe.com/image/74093e76-googlein20years_/" rel="nofollow">Here, John</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug M.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/european-russia/comment-page-1/#comment-176938</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:01:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/european-russia/#comment-176938</guid>
		<description>Firm agreement with the other Doug.  Russian elites have zero interest in joining the EU.  (And EU elites aren&#039;t too enthusiastic about Russia.)

&quot;The logic of gradual integration&quot; misses a key point: Russia, as Doug says, sees itself as an equal to the EU.

Note the unease with which Russia views Ukrainian membership.


Doug M.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Firm agreement with the other Doug.  Russian elites have zero interest in joining the EU.  (And EU elites aren&#8217;t too enthusiastic about Russia.)</p>

	<p>&#8220;The logic of gradual integration&#8221; misses a key point: Russia, as Doug says, sees itself as an equal to the EU.</p>

	<p>Note the unease with which Russia views Ukrainian membership.</p>


	<p>Doug M.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/european-russia/comment-page-1/#comment-176932</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Oct 2006 08:40:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/european-russia/#comment-176932</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s unlikely in the extreme that Russia will join the EU in any reasonable time frame. First, there are no segments of the Russian elite or leadership seeking membership. Even on the fastest timetable (see Hungary et al.) the route from near-unanimous desire in policy circles to actual membership takes a decade and a half. Then there&#039;s the slower lane currently being traveled by the Western Balkans and Ukraine, where membership takes more like two decades. Then of course there&#039;s the Turkish lane, which is going on four decades and counting.

Second, Russia would break all of the Union&#039;s institutional arrangements. Almost twice the population of any other member states, famously spread across eleven time zones. In Germany it&#039;s currently fashionable to say that security starts at the Hindu Kush, but Russia has land borders all across Asia and a geographic dispute with Japan. A Union that had to call in Colin Powell a couple of years back because Spain and Morocco couldn&#039;t come to terms over a pair of uninhabited rocks is not in the least bit prepared to deal with Russia-sized problems.

Further, Russian elites see their country as co-equal with the Union as a whole. Accepting that in certain circumstances Malta will exercise a veto over Moscow&#039;s wishes is not part of this view.

EU enlargement will eventually reach an end, around 2020 if the former Roman provinces in North Africa do not join, rather later if they do, and Russia will not be a part of the Union.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It&#8217;s unlikely in the extreme that Russia will join the EU in any reasonable time frame. First, there are no segments of the Russian elite or leadership seeking membership. Even on the fastest timetable (see Hungary et al.) the route from near-unanimous desire in policy circles to actual membership takes a decade and a half. Then there&#8217;s the slower lane currently being traveled by the Western Balkans and Ukraine, where membership takes more like two decades. Then of course there&#8217;s the Turkish lane, which is going on four decades and counting.</p>

	<p>Second, Russia would break all of the Union&#8217;s institutional arrangements. Almost twice the population of any other member states, famously spread across eleven time zones. In Germany it&#8217;s currently fashionable to say that security starts at the Hindu Kush, but Russia has land borders all across Asia and a geographic dispute with Japan. A Union that had to call in Colin Powell a couple of years back because Spain and Morocco couldn&#8217;t come to terms over a pair of uninhabited rocks is not in the least bit prepared to deal with Russia-sized problems.</p>

	<p>Further, Russian elites see their country as co-equal with the Union as a whole. Accepting that in certain circumstances Malta will exercise a veto over Moscow&#8217;s wishes is not part of this view.</p>

	<p>EU enlargement will eventually reach an end, around 2020 if the former Roman provinces in North Africa do not join, rather later if they do, and Russia will not be a part of the Union.</p>
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