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	<title>Comments on: exile.ru</title>
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	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/exileru/comment-page-2/#comment-177297</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Oct 2006 15:12:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/exileru/#comment-177297</guid>
		<description>An article about fascism in Russia which is very critical of Limonov.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/globalization-institutions_government/nazi_russia_3511.jsp

&lt;blockquote&gt;Islamophobia and xenophobia are on the rise particularly with nationalist groups such as the National-Bolshevik Party, which also calls for the elimination of gays and lesbians. An unlikely mixture of Nazi and Stalinist rhetoric with anarchist notions thrown in, the National-Bolshevik Party seeks to recreate a Russian empire along czarist lines; it is hostile to ethnic minorities and foreigners, critical of Vladimir Putin, and calls for direct action, usually pranks and stunts, to protest political and social issues. Its most notorious action was on 2 August 2004, when it occupied the ministry of health in Moscow to protest against the cancellation of Soviet-era benefits for pensioners and others; this government decision made many Russians angry and provided the group with an opportunity for a public display of their party flags, which look uncannily like Nazi flags except that a hammer and sickle has been substituted for the swastika as a black image in a white circle on a field of red (figure 4).&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;Despite the rhetoric of the National-Bolshevik Party, it is not politically possible to combine Nazism and communism, even in its deformed and degenerated Stalinist form. ...&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;Limonov denounces the Russian revolution of 1917 as a &quot;Jewish coup d&#039;état&quot; but admires the &quot;green revolution&quot; of Colonel Muammar Gaddafi in Libya, the Ba&#039;athist coup of Saddam Hussein in Iraq and the Islamic revolution of Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran – all reactionary movements based on either military dictatorship or clerical rule. In his stint as a sniper for the Serbian army, Limonov admired the &quot;ethnic cleansing&quot; of non-Serbs in Serbian areas. His goal is to extend the borders of Russia into the former Soviet republics, producing a greater-Russia that would dominate non-ethnic Russians with a military dictator in place of a czar, a condition of oppressive rule Lenin famously referred to as &quot;a prison-house of peoples.&quot; Ultimately Limonov and the National-Bolshevik Party would like to supercede the United States as the dominant world imperialist power.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>An article about fascism in Russia which is very critical of Limonov.</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.opendemocracy.net/globalization-institutions_government/nazi_russia_3511.jsp" rel="nofollow">http://www.opendemocracy.net/globalization-institutions_government/nazi_russia_3511.jsp</a></p>

	<p><blockquote>Islamophobia and xenophobia are on the rise particularly with nationalist groups such as the National-Bolshevik Party, which also calls for the elimination of gays and lesbians. An unlikely mixture of Nazi and Stalinist rhetoric with anarchist notions thrown in, the National-Bolshevik Party seeks to recreate a Russian empire along czarist lines; it is hostile to ethnic minorities and foreigners, critical of Vladimir Putin, and calls for direct action, usually pranks and stunts, to protest political and social issues. Its most notorious action was on 2 August 2004, when it occupied the ministry of health in Moscow to protest against the cancellation of Soviet-era benefits for pensioners and others; this government decision made many Russians angry and provided the group with an opportunity for a public display of their party flags, which look uncannily like Nazi flags except that a hammer and sickle has been substituted for the swastika as a black image in a white circle on a field of red (figure 4).</blockquote></p>

	<p><blockquote>Despite the rhetoric of the National-Bolshevik Party, it is not politically possible to combine Nazism and communism, even in its deformed and degenerated Stalinist form. &#8230;</blockquote></p>

	<p><blockquote>Limonov denounces the Russian revolution of 1917 as a &#8220;Jewish coup d&#8217;&#233;tat&#8221; but admires the &#8220;green revolution&#8221; of Colonel Muammar Gaddafi in Libya, the Ba&#8217;athist coup of Saddam Hussein in Iraq and the Islamic revolution of Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran &#8211; all reactionary movements based on either military dictatorship or clerical rule. In his stint as a sniper for the Serbian army, Limonov admired the &#8220;ethnic cleansing&#8221; of non-Serbs in Serbian areas. His goal is to extend the borders of Russia into the former Soviet republics, producing a greater-Russia that would dominate non-ethnic Russians with a military dictator in place of a czar, a condition of oppressive rule Lenin famously referred to as &#8220;a prison-house of peoples.&#8221; Ultimately Limonov and the National-Bolshevik Party would like to supercede the United States as the dominant world imperialist power.</blockquote></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/exileru/comment-page-2/#comment-177284</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Oct 2006 13:31:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/exileru/#comment-177284</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;It’s all nonsense.&lt;/i&gt;

No, it&#039;s not, actually. If you don&#039;t believe me you can just search for news reports about it. (BTW possibly opportunistic stuff which Limonov may have said 13 years later would not begin to cast doubt on these.) Debating how close Ames is, politically, to Limonov is possible, as is arguing about Limonov is a fascist. Debating whether Limonov fought with the Serbs (and Karadzic) against the Bosniaks, or whether the NBP are Russian nationalists (and very extreme ones) is, IIRC, not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>It&#8217;s all nonsense.</i></p>

	<p>No, it&#8217;s not, actually. If you don&#8217;t believe me you can just search for news reports about it. (BTW possibly opportunistic stuff which Limonov may have said 13 years later would not begin to cast doubt on these.) Debating how close Ames is, politically, to Limonov is possible, as is arguing about Limonov is a fascist. Debating whether Limonov fought with the Serbs (and Karadzic) against the Bosniaks, or whether the <span class="caps">NBP</span> are Russian nationalists (and very extreme ones) is, <span class="caps">IIRC</span>, not.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/exileru/comment-page-2/#comment-177104</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Oct 2006 10:36:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/exileru/#comment-177104</guid>
		<description>Right, in 1992 Bosnian Muslims were his enemies, and in 2005 - &lt;a href=&quot;http://eng.nbp-info.ru/435.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Limonov: Each Year I Get Closer to Islam&lt;/a&gt;:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
And then I am already 63 years old and whatever [sic] you want it or not you become wiser, it is just a necessity. And therefore each year I get closer to Islam as a wise religion.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
It&#039;s all nonsense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Right, in 1992 Bosnian Muslims were his enemies, and in 2005 &#8211; <a href="http://eng.nbp-info.ru/435.html" rel="nofollow">Limonov: Each Year I Get Closer to Islam</a>:<br />
<blockquote><br />
And then I am already 63 years old and whatever [sic] you want it or not you become wiser, it is just a necessity. And therefore each year I get closer to Islam as a wise religion.<br />
</blockquote><br />
It&#8217;s all nonsense.</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/exileru/comment-page-2/#comment-177097</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Oct 2006 10:00:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/exileru/#comment-177097</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Besides, if you read his (Limonov’s) clownish nonsense, it doesn’t sound like he is a Russian nationalist...

There’s nothing in it, it’s no different than Madonna’s adoption.&lt;/i&gt;

Except that Madonna was never &lt;a href=&quot;http://listserv.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0504&amp;L=justwatch-l&amp;O=D&amp;F=&amp;S=&amp;P=72769&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;filmed &lt;/a&gt; firing off a machine gun into Sarajevo at the suggestion of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.un.org/icty/indictment/english/kar-ai000428e.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Radovan Karadžić&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Besides, if you read his (Limonov&#8217;s) clownish nonsense, it doesn&#8217;t sound like he is a Russian nationalist&#8230;</i></p>

	<p>There&#8217;s nothing in it, it&#8217;s no different than Madonna&#8217;s adoption.</p>

	<p>Except that Madonna was never <a href="http://listserv.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0504&#038;L=justwatch-l&#038;O=D&#038;F=&#038;S=&#038;P=72769" rel="nofollow">filmed </a> firing off a machine gun into Sarajevo at the suggestion of <a href="http://www.un.org/icty/indictment/english/kar-ai000428e.htm" rel="nofollow">Radovan Karadžić</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Danny</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/exileru/comment-page-2/#comment-177077</link>
		<dc:creator>Danny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Oct 2006 12:21:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/exileru/#comment-177077</guid>
		<description>Apparently Limonov &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limonov&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;was an associate of Zhirinovsky&lt;/a&gt;, leader of the third largest party in Russia (he was his Shadow Security minister) but broke with him because of Zhirinovsky&#039;s over the top style. Which one is the bigger clown, Zhirinovsky or Limonov, I cannot judge - among fascists this was never an important distinction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Apparently Limonov <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limonov" rel="nofollow">was an associate of Zhirinovsky</a>, leader of the third largest party in Russia (he was his Shadow Security minister) but broke with him because of Zhirinovsky&#8217;s over the top style. Which one is the bigger clown, Zhirinovsky or Limonov, I cannot judge &#8211; among fascists this was never an important distinction.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/exileru/comment-page-2/#comment-177070</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Oct 2006 10:22:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/exileru/#comment-177070</guid>
		<description>From wiki:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
Based on an article published in Limonka under Limonov&#039;s byline, the government accused Limonov of planning to raise an army to invade Kazakhstan.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Being jealous of Borat, you see.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>From wiki:<br />
<blockquote><br />
Based on an article published in Limonka under Limonov&#8217;s byline, the government accused Limonov of planning to raise an army to invade Kazakhstan.<br />
</blockquote><br />
Being jealous of Borat, you see.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/exileru/comment-page-2/#comment-177068</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Oct 2006 09:58:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/exileru/#comment-177068</guid>
		<description>Besides, if you read his (Limonov&#039;s) clownish nonsense, it doesn&#039;t sound like he is a Russian nationalist; he despises most of the Russians and dreaming about designer nation consisting only of young Evel-Knievels of any ethnicity or nationality. Charlie Manson is his hero and role model. 

There&#039;s nothing in it, it&#039;s no different than Madonna&#039;s adoption.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Besides, if you read his (Limonov&#8217;s) clownish nonsense, it doesn&#8217;t sound like he is a Russian nationalist; he despises most of the Russians and dreaming about designer nation consisting only of young Evel-Knievels of any ethnicity or nationality. Charlie Manson is his hero and role model.</p>

	<p>There&#8217;s nothing in it, it&#8217;s no different than Madonna&#8217;s adoption.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/exileru/comment-page-2/#comment-177067</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Oct 2006 09:46:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/exileru/#comment-177067</guid>
		<description>Nah, Limonov is a clown and nothing but a clown.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Nah, Limonov is a clown and nothing but a clown.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/exileru/comment-page-2/#comment-177061</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Oct 2006 07:28:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/exileru/#comment-177061</guid>
		<description>Ok, I just spent a little while googling this. As far as I can see, Ames and the Exile do indeed seem to be sympathetic to Edward Limonov and his ultra-nationalist National Bolshevik Party (which has been banned from electoral registration in Russia). I can&#039;t see that this is any kind of joke: apart from the fact that Limonov used to write for them regularly, they have written various pieces in support of him, like these, the first two of which are by Ames.

http://www.exile.ru/2002-October-17/feature_story.html
http://www.freezerbox.com/archive/article.php?id=189
http://www.exile.ru/2003-July-10/limonov_for_dummies.html

The last begins by saying &quot;Edward Limonov is a great writer and a heroic figure.&quot;

It seems to follow from this that Ames can not be called an apologist for Putin, and I haven&#039;t yet seen any evidence for this claim. (The &quot;Putin envy&quot; piece which Doug mentioned is not actually pro-Putin, despite its title.) On the other hand, Doug may well have been right to describe him as &quot;basically a Russian nationalist&quot;. If all this is true, then I would have to agree with the general thrust of his original comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ok, I just spent a little while googling this. As far as I can see, Ames and the Exile do indeed seem to be sympathetic to Edward Limonov and his ultra-nationalist National Bolshevik Party (which has been banned from electoral registration in Russia). I can&#8217;t see that this is any kind of joke: apart from the fact that Limonov used to write for them regularly, they have written various pieces in support of him, like these, the first two of which are by Ames.</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.exile.ru/2002-October-17/feature_story.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.exile.ru/2002-October-17/feature_story.html</a><br />
<a href="http://www.freezerbox.com/archive/article.php?id=189" rel="nofollow">http://www.freezerbox.com/archive/article.php?id=189</a><br />
<a href="http://www.exile.ru/2003-July-10/limonov_for_dummies.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.exile.ru/2003-July-10/limonov_for_dummies.html</a></p>

	<p>The last begins by saying &#8220;Edward Limonov is a great writer and a heroic figure.&#8221;</p>

	<p>It seems to follow from this that Ames can not be called an apologist for Putin, and I haven&#8217;t yet seen any evidence for this claim. (The &#8220;Putin envy&#8221; piece which Doug mentioned is not actually pro-Putin, despite its title.) On the other hand, Doug may well have been right to describe him as &#8220;basically a Russian nationalist&#8221;. If all this is true, then I would have to agree with the general thrust of his original comment.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/exileru/comment-page-2/#comment-177035</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Oct 2006 21:55:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/exileru/#comment-177035</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;...unless one assumes that Ames’s politics are strictly logical. I see no reason to suppose that, though.&lt;/i&gt;

Right, instead one should suppose that he is commie/nazi/Putin-admirer. Makes sense. Except, I suspect he&#039;s also a closeted satanist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8230;unless one assumes that Ames&#8217;s politics are strictly logical. I see no reason to suppose that, though.</i></p>

	<p>Right, instead one should suppose that he is commie/nazi/Putin-admirer. Makes sense. Except, I suspect he&#8217;s also a closeted satanist.</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/exileru/comment-page-2/#comment-177034</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Oct 2006 21:43:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/exileru/#comment-177034</guid>
		<description>Well, I think that we should also consider that Ames, like The Exile itself, is self-identified as a scurrilous journalist / provocateur / comedian, qhereas Applebaum is in charge of packaging the received wisdom for the semi-educated elite, and affects moral seriousness into the bargain. 

And if Ames is s a political hack himself, that&#039;s just a version of the &quot;you&#039;re just as bad&quot; defense, and in doesn&#039;t really help Applebaum. Applebaum&#039;s own silences certainly should looked at.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, I think that we should also consider that Ames, like The Exile itself, is self-identified as a scurrilous journalist / provocateur / comedian, qhereas Applebaum is in charge of packaging the received wisdom for the semi-educated elite, and affects moral seriousness into the bargain.</p>

	<p>And if Ames is s a political hack himself, that&#8217;s just a version of the &#8220;you&#8217;re just as bad&#8221; defense, and in doesn&#8217;t really help Applebaum. Applebaum&#8217;s own silences certainly should looked at.</p>
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		<title>By: josh</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/exileru/comment-page-2/#comment-177033</link>
		<dc:creator>josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Oct 2006 21:02:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/exileru/#comment-177033</guid>
		<description>Engels -- while admiration for Putin and support for the NBP may seem logically impossible, it doesn&#039;t mean that it&#039;s an inaccurate characterisation of Ames&#039;s views -- unless one assumes that Ames&#039;s politics are strictly logical. I see no reason to suppose that, though. It does seem like he&#039;s motivated both by a desire to epater le bourgeois, as suggested, and a general contempt for liberals and Westernizers in Russia; and these commitments seem entirely consonant with both defending Putin against (liberal and Western) critics, and at least flirting with support for the NBP.
Whether Ames is a &#039;sellout&#039; is another matter. That the political axe(s) he has grind coincide with the interests of the authorities in his adopted country may be pure coincidence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Engels&#8212;while admiration for Putin and support for the <span class="caps">NBP</span> may seem logically impossible, it doesn&#8217;t mean that it&#8217;s an inaccurate characterisation of Ames&#8217;s views&#8212;unless one assumes that Ames&#8217;s politics are strictly logical. I see no reason to suppose that, though. It does seem like he&#8217;s motivated both by a desire to epater le bourgeois, as suggested, and a general contempt for liberals and Westernizers in Russia; and these commitments seem entirely consonant with both defending Putin against (liberal and Western) critics, and at least flirting with support for the <span class="caps">NBP</span>.<br />
Whether Ames is a &#8216;sellout&#8217; is another matter. That the political axe(s) he has grind coincide with the interests of the authorities in his adopted country may be pure coincidence.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/exileru/comment-page-2/#comment-177032</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Oct 2006 19:01:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/exileru/#comment-177032</guid>
		<description>To make that clearer: &quot;slavish defender of Putin&quot; should have been something like &quot;fanatical Putin worshipper&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>To make that clearer: &#8220;slavish defender of Putin&#8221; should have been something like &#8220;fanatical Putin worshipper&#8221; </p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/exileru/comment-page-2/#comment-177031</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Oct 2006 18:53:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/exileru/#comment-177031</guid>
		<description>Again, I don&#039;t carry any brief for Ames - I&#039;ve only ever read a couple of his pieces myself - but it would seem to be logically impossible for him to be both a slavish defender of Putin &lt;i&gt;and&lt;/i&gt; an admirer of the NBP.  Each these charges is also distinct from another one that has been floated on this thread - that he&#039;s a spineless sellout who &quot;tailors his coat to the wind&quot; from the Kremlin. So which is it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Again, I don&#8217;t carry any brief for Ames &#8211; I&#8217;ve only ever read a couple of his pieces myself &#8211; but it would seem to be logically impossible for him to be both a slavish defender of Putin <i>and</i> an admirer of the <span class="caps">NBP</span>.  Each these charges is also distinct from another one that has been floated on this thread &#8211; that he&#8217;s a spineless sellout who &#8220;tailors his coat to the wind&#8221; from the Kremlin. So which is it?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Bertram</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/exileru/comment-page-2/#comment-177024</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Bertram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Oct 2006 17:20:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/exileru/#comment-177024</guid>
		<description>Thanks Danny. Looks like I was  _seriously_  mistaken about that. My guess is that the epater les  bourgeois explanation is right, but even if so,  that association supports the view of Ames put by Doug M. above. mea culpa.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks Danny. Looks like I was  <em>seriously</em>  mistaken about that. My guess is that the epater les  bourgeois explanation is right, but even if so,  that association supports the view of Ames put by Doug M. above. mea culpa.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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