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	<title>Comments on: Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer &#8230;.</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/though-cowards-flinch-and-traitors-sneer/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/though-cowards-flinch-and-traitors-sneer/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: isakofsky</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/though-cowards-flinch-and-traitors-sneer/comment-page-1/#comment-177280</link>
		<dc:creator>isakofsky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Oct 2006 12:48:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/though-cowards-flinch-and-traitors-sneer/#comment-177280</guid>
		<description>The starting point for serious kammoriography is an analysis of the word &#039;we&#039;. Once a bearing is fixed on who he means by &#039;we&#039;, or who is the invisible &#039;we&#039; he is referring to, or indeed who is the &#039;we&#039; he thinks he&#039;s part of, then everything else falls into place. Alternatively, there&#039;s another way of analysing it, by getting a take on all the people who aren&#039;t in his &#039;we&#039; (ooh that last bit is the kind of thing that would have my five-year old giggling for hours).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The starting point for serious kammoriography is an analysis of the word &#8216;we&#8217;. Once a bearing is fixed on who he means by &#8216;we&#8217;, or who is the invisible &#8216;we&#8217; he is referring to, or indeed who is the &#8216;we&#8217; he thinks he&#8217;s part of, then everything else falls into place. Alternatively, there&#8217;s another way of analysing it, by getting a take on all the people who aren&#8217;t in his &#8216;we&#8217; (ooh that last bit is the kind of thing that would have my five-year old giggling for hours).</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/though-cowards-flinch-and-traitors-sneer/comment-page-1/#comment-176990</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Oct 2006 19:24:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/though-cowards-flinch-and-traitors-sneer/#comment-176990</guid>
		<description>I forgot where I saw this cartoon (possibly by David Rees) where a guy suggests building one huge bomb in the shape and size of the globe with the US part cut out - and detonating it, killing everyone outside the US. 

Hey, I just realized: not only we wouldn&#039;t have to worry about the military capabilities of various unpleasant foreigners - that would&#039;ve solved the illegal immigration problem as well, wouldn&#039;t it. And even the problem with US jobs moving abroad. 

Too bad for Oliver - he lives in the UK, right? Oh well, sorry, nothing personal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I forgot where I saw this cartoon (possibly by David Rees) where a guy suggests building one huge bomb in the shape and size of the globe with the US part cut out &#8211; and detonating it, killing everyone outside the US.</p>

	<p>Hey, I just realized: not only we wouldn&#8217;t have to worry about the military capabilities of various unpleasant foreigners &#8211; that would&#8217;ve solved the illegal immigration problem as well, wouldn&#8217;t it. And even the problem with US jobs moving abroad.</p>

	<p>Too bad for Oliver &#8211; he lives in the UK, right? Oh well, sorry, nothing personal.</p>
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		<title>By: stuart</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/though-cowards-flinch-and-traitors-sneer/comment-page-1/#comment-176980</link>
		<dc:creator>stuart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Oct 2006 17:57:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/though-cowards-flinch-and-traitors-sneer/#comment-176980</guid>
		<description>According to Kamm&#039;s logic can we wipe out the entire of the US population, because I would feel safer if they werent around.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>According to Kamm&#8217;s logic can we wipe out the entire of the US population, because I would feel safer if they werent around.</p>
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		<title>By: rana</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/though-cowards-flinch-and-traitors-sneer/comment-page-1/#comment-176969</link>
		<dc:creator>rana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Oct 2006 15:30:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/though-cowards-flinch-and-traitors-sneer/#comment-176969</guid>
		<description>More or less &lt;i&gt;Let justice be done though the heavens should fail&lt;/i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>More or less <i>Let justice be done though the heavens should fail</i>.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Williams</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/though-cowards-flinch-and-traitors-sneer/comment-page-1/#comment-176960</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Oct 2006 14:20:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/though-cowards-flinch-and-traitors-sneer/#comment-176960</guid>
		<description>Yeah, but on the plus side, ending on a latin tag that I don&#039;t yet understand reminds me that the only thing I like about Kamm is his mother.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yeah, but on the plus side, ending on a latin tag that I don&#8217;t yet understand reminds me that the only thing I like about Kamm is his mother.</p>
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		<title>By: chris y</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/though-cowards-flinch-and-traitors-sneer/comment-page-1/#comment-176958</link>
		<dc:creator>chris y</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Oct 2006 13:46:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/though-cowards-flinch-and-traitors-sneer/#comment-176958</guid>
		<description>What is most extraordinary (or would be to a naive reader) about Kamm&#039;s screed is the final paragraph. He goes on for longer than flesh and blood can endure about the justifications for the Iraq war, leading us to suppose that this is his primary concern, and then, TA-DAH!!!, he reveals his punchline:

&lt;i&gt;fiat Tony, ruat caelum&lt;/i&gt;. what a hack.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What is most extraordinary (or would be to a naive reader) about Kamm&#8217;s screed is the final paragraph. He goes on for longer than flesh and blood can endure about the justifications for the Iraq war, leading us to suppose that this is his primary concern, and then, TA-DAH<img src="!" alt="" border="0" />, he reveals his punchline:</p>

	<p><i>fiat Tony, ruat caelum</i>. what a hack.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Donoghue</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/though-cowards-flinch-and-traitors-sneer/comment-page-1/#comment-176953</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Donoghue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Oct 2006 12:31:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/though-cowards-flinch-and-traitors-sneer/#comment-176953</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;I’m not much enamoured of your recommendation to retreat into huffy, disdainful silence in the face of an argument with which one disagrees.&lt;/em&gt;

Had I made such a recommendation, you would be quite right to reject it.

Let’s return to the question you posed at the outset. You already have my answer. Kamm might say (in effect but at greater length) that we had compelling reasons to invade Iraq and if we have similarly compelling reasons to bomb a minibus then we should bomb a minibus. Why should he shrink from that conclusion? The IAF frequently bombs minibuses; if Kamm condemns that then maybe you have him cornered. If not then it’s hard to see where you are going with this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>I&#8217;m not much enamoured of your recommendation to retreat into huffy, disdainful silence in the face of an argument with which one disagrees.</em></p>

	<p>Had I made such a recommendation, you would be quite right to reject it.</p>

	<p>Let&#8217;s return to the question you posed at the outset. You already have my answer. Kamm might say (in effect but at greater length) that we had compelling reasons to invade Iraq and if we have similarly compelling reasons to bomb a minibus then we should bomb a minibus. Why should he shrink from that conclusion? The <span class="caps">IAF</span> frequently bombs minibuses; if Kamm condemns that then maybe you have him cornered. If not then it&#8217;s hard to see where you are going with this.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Scudder</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/though-cowards-flinch-and-traitors-sneer/comment-page-1/#comment-176948</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Scudder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Oct 2006 11:18:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/though-cowards-flinch-and-traitors-sneer/#comment-176948</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The fact that we no longer have to worry about the military capabilities of Saddam Hussein and his family – not just now but maybe thirty years into the future&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I don&#039;t think even that&#039;s true. Maybe in the very, very narrow sense that Saddam Hussein&#039;s literal family probably won&#039;t return to power in Iraq (although who can tell - isn&#039;t his daughter in Jordan somewhere?), but is it inherently unreasonable to think that, 30 years down the road, there could be a strongly anti-American and anti-Western government in Iraq that succeeds in producing nuclear weapons? That&#039;s a good 5 years to wait out a US withdrawal, 15 years to win the civil war, and 10 years to come up with the nukes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote>The fact that we no longer have to worry about the military capabilities of Saddam Hussein and his family &#8211; not just now but maybe thirty years into the future</blockquote></p>

	<p>I don&#8217;t think even that&#8217;s true. Maybe in the very, very narrow sense that Saddam Hussein&#8217;s literal family probably won&#8217;t return to power in Iraq (although who can tell &#8211; isn&#8217;t his daughter in Jordan somewhere?), but is it inherently unreasonable to think that, 30 years down the road, there could be a strongly anti-American and anti-Western government in Iraq that succeeds in producing nuclear weapons? That&#8217;s a good 5 years to wait out a US withdrawal, 15 years to win the civil war, and 10 years to come up with the nukes.</p>
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		<title>By: roy belmont</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/though-cowards-flinch-and-traitors-sneer/comment-page-1/#comment-176941</link>
		<dc:creator>roy belmont</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:30:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/though-cowards-flinch-and-traitors-sneer/#comment-176941</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;The terrible death of anti-Israel activist Rachel Corrie beneath an Israeli bulldozer was plainly an accident - an impassioned demonstration that got out of hand - and no fair-minded observer would doubt the thoroughness and fairness of the Israeli army&#039;s investigation. But that won&#039;t stop unfair-minded observers from using Miss Corrie&#039;s memory as a tabula rasa on which to write their own myths.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
This the opening paragraph of Kamm&#039;s gallant piece on Rachel Corrie; which does display along the way a pretty distinct pro-Israel bias in his p.o.v.
Which may explain some of his superficially irrational defense of the removal of Saddam Hussein&#039;s Iraq from Middle East affairs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote>&#8220;The terrible death of anti-Israel activist Rachel Corrie beneath an Israeli bulldozer was plainly an accident &#8211; an impassioned demonstration that got out of hand &#8211; and no fair-minded observer would doubt the thoroughness and fairness of the Israeli army&#8217;s investigation. But that won&#8217;t stop unfair-minded observers from using Miss Corrie&#8217;s memory as a tabula rasa on which to write their own myths.&#8221;</blockquote><br />
This the opening paragraph of Kamm&#8217;s gallant piece on Rachel Corrie; which does display along the way a pretty distinct pro-Israel bias in his p.o.v.<br />
Which may explain some of his superficially irrational defense of the removal of Saddam Hussein&#8217;s Iraq from Middle East affairs.</p>
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		<title>By: glenn</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/though-cowards-flinch-and-traitors-sneer/comment-page-1/#comment-176940</link>
		<dc:creator>glenn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:03:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/though-cowards-flinch-and-traitors-sneer/#comment-176940</guid>
		<description>Before the war started, say before 9/11, I don&#039;t think anyone in the US or its allies truly worried about the military capabilities of Iraq nor the crazed ambitions of Hussein, aside from liars, the paranoid, and those paid to worry about it. Unfortuately, the liars and the paranoid now run the Executive branch, which can find some sliver of justification only be re-writing history and trying to build-up Iraq through hindsight. Iraq was never a threat to the US nor to any of its allies. The country was effectively neutered. The US essentially organized a mugging ... of a parapalegic.

By Kamm&#039;s logic (term is loosely used), we would be justified in killing any neighbor we didn&#039;t like the look of, just in the off chance he would have happened to become a murderer.

What Bush has been successful at is making the US even more hated by its enemies, making many new enemies, and weakening to a great degree the relationship with its allies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Before the war started, say before 9/11, I don&#8217;t think anyone in the US or its allies truly worried about the military capabilities of Iraq nor the crazed ambitions of Hussein, aside from liars, the paranoid, and those paid to worry about it. Unfortuately, the liars and the paranoid now run the Executive branch, which can find some sliver of justification only be re-writing history and trying to build-up Iraq through hindsight. Iraq was never a threat to the US nor to any of its allies. The country was effectively neutered. The US essentially organized a mugging &#8230; of a parapalegic.</p>

	<p>By Kamm&#8217;s logic (term is loosely used), we would be justified in killing any neighbor we didn&#8217;t like the look of, just in the off chance he would have happened to become a murderer.</p>

	<p>What Bush has been successful at is making the US even more hated by its enemies, making many new enemies, and weakening to a great degree the relationship with its allies.</p>
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		<title>By: Callan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/though-cowards-flinch-and-traitors-sneer/comment-page-1/#comment-176928</link>
		<dc:creator>Callan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Oct 2006 08:09:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/though-cowards-flinch-and-traitors-sneer/#comment-176928</guid>
		<description>I thought the cardinal tenets of Decency were:

1/ We alone, unlike the &#039;pro-hezbollah left&#039; and the intellectual heirs of Kissinger and Hurd have a moral compass which points to the true magnetic north of Decency.

2/ We alone care about the poor purple-fingered mites in Iraq yearning to breathe free.

If all Kamm can now offer is a consequentialist argument that over half a million actual Iraqi deaths are justified because they prevent x hypothetical deaths when the Hussein dynasty acquired Massive Weapons of Destruction sometime in the next thirty years, hasn&#039;t he implicitly abandoned both those claims in favour of a Kissingerian realism which effectively says that Iraqi lives are unimportant compared to our position on the global chessboard?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I thought the cardinal tenets of Decency were:</p>

	<p>1/ We alone, unlike the &#8216;pro-hezbollah left&#8217; and the intellectual heirs of Kissinger and Hurd have a moral compass which points to the true magnetic north of Decency.</p>

	<p>2/ We alone care about the poor purple-fingered mites in Iraq yearning to breathe free.</p>

	<p>If all Kamm can now offer is a consequentialist argument that over half a million actual Iraqi deaths are justified because they prevent x hypothetical deaths when the Hussein dynasty acquired Massive Weapons of Destruction sometime in the next thirty years, hasn&#8217;t he implicitly abandoned both those claims in favour of a Kissingerian realism which effectively says that Iraqi lives are unimportant compared to our position on the global chessboard?</p>
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		<title>By: nick s</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/though-cowards-flinch-and-traitors-sneer/comment-page-1/#comment-176924</link>
		<dc:creator>nick s</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Oct 2006 07:27:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/though-cowards-flinch-and-traitors-sneer/#comment-176924</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Why bother disputing his substantive points (e.g., the Campbell/O’Hanlon argument) when sneering’s easier?&lt;/i&gt;

Why? Because life really is too fucking short. 

Especially in Iraq these days.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Why bother disputing his substantive points (e.g., the Campbell/O&#8217;Hanlon argument) when sneering&#8217;s easier?</i></p>

	<p>Why? Because life really is too fucking short.</p>

	<p>Especially in Iraq these days.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Poole</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/though-cowards-flinch-and-traitors-sneer/comment-page-1/#comment-176895</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Poole</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Oct 2006 22:52:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/though-cowards-flinch-and-traitors-sneer/#comment-176895</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Recently you have written pieces inspired, or provoked, by the thoughts of Simon Jenkins on education, Christopher Hitchens on epidemiology and Melanie Phillips on academia.&lt;/em&gt;

Guilty, if it&#039;s at all relevant. I&#039;ve also recently written things about Paul Auster, Mark Danielewski, Patrick Cockburn, Bernard Williams, and the history of Paris. I&#039;m not much enamoured of your recommendation to retreat into huffy, disdainful silence in the face of an argument with which one disagrees.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>Recently you have written pieces inspired, or provoked, by the thoughts of Simon Jenkins on education, Christopher Hitchens on epidemiology and Melanie Phillips on academia.</em></p>

	<p>Guilty, if it&#8217;s at all relevant. I&#8217;ve also recently written things about Paul Auster, Mark Danielewski, Patrick Cockburn, Bernard Williams, and the history of Paris. I&#8217;m not much enamoured of your recommendation to retreat into huffy, disdainful silence in the face of an argument with which one disagrees.</p>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/though-cowards-flinch-and-traitors-sneer/comment-page-1/#comment-176894</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Oct 2006 22:35:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/though-cowards-flinch-and-traitors-sneer/#comment-176894</guid>
		<description>Steven Poole: I suggest reading the labels on Dr. Bronner&#039;s soap bottles.  Dilute!  Dilute!  Dilute!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Steven Poole: I suggest reading the labels on Dr. Bronner&#8217;s soap bottles.  Dilute!  Dilute!  Dilute!</p>
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		<title>By: bi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/though-cowards-flinch-and-traitors-sneer/comment-page-1/#comment-176889</link>
		<dc:creator>bi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Oct 2006 21:05:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/26/though-cowards-flinch-and-traitors-sneer/#comment-176889</guid>
		<description>Kevin Donoghue s3z, &quot;Perhaps people read Kamm so that they can bask in a sense of their own superiority, both analytical and stylistic.&quot;

Sounds like a reasonable guess. But there&#039;s a very real danger that this &quot;superiority&quot; will steadily diminish as one reads more and more of his junk. Because, as &lt;a href=&quot;http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/26/but-nobodys-talking-too-much-about-the-finer-points-of-miss-coulters-argument/#comment-169935&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;bad Jim put it&lt;/a&gt;, &quot;There is such a thing as negative knowledge.&quot; The sort of superiority complex you describe can be very hazardous indeed to one&#039;s mental health.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Kevin Donoghue s3z, &#8220;Perhaps people read Kamm so that they can bask in a sense of their own superiority, both analytical and stylistic.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Sounds like a reasonable guess. But there&#8217;s a very real danger that this &#8220;superiority&#8221; will steadily diminish as one reads more and more of his junk. Because, as <a href="http://crookedtimber.org/2006/08/26/but-nobodys-talking-too-much-about-the-finer-points-of-miss-coulters-argument/#comment-169935" rel="nofollow">bad Jim put it</a>, &#8220;There is such a thing as negative knowledge.&#8221; The sort of superiority complex you describe can be very hazardous indeed to one&#8217;s mental health.</p>
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