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	<title>Comments on: Irresponsibility and Abortion in Nicaragua</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/02/irresponsibility-and-abortion-in-nicaragua/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/02/irresponsibility-and-abortion-in-nicaragua/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/02/irresponsibility-and-abortion-in-nicaragua/comment-page-2/#comment-177768</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2006 05:55:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/02/irresponsibility-and-abortion-in-nicaragua/#comment-177768</guid>
		<description>Oh Radek, is your life really so empty?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oh Radek, is your life really so empty?</p>
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		<title>By: radek</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/02/irresponsibility-and-abortion-in-nicaragua/comment-page-2/#comment-177766</link>
		<dc:creator>radek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2006 04:15:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/02/irresponsibility-and-abortion-in-nicaragua/#comment-177766</guid>
		<description>Man, just drop it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Man, just drop it.</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/02/irresponsibility-and-abortion-in-nicaragua/comment-page-2/#comment-177729</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Nov 2006 18:38:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/02/irresponsibility-and-abortion-in-nicaragua/#comment-177729</guid>
		<description>Aine, the &lt;i&gt;ad hominem&lt;/i&gt; nature of this dispute originated, in believe, in comment #1, which accused the poster of being &quot;dishonest&quot;. I pointed this out at #44 and was rewarded with a string of personal attacks from Radek (as well as sharp criticism from Martin James and &quot;asg&quot;). I can not speak for anyone else but I would guess that the experience of others who sought to defend Ingrid&#039;s &quot;dishonest&quot;, &quot;ridiculous&quot; and otherwise irrational post may have been similar. So I would humbly suggest that the &quot;a plague on both your houses&quot; tone of your reaction seems a little unfair.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Aine, the <i>ad hominem</i> nature of this dispute originated, in believe, in comment #1, which accused the poster of being &#8220;dishonest&#8221;. I pointed this out at #44 and was rewarded with a string of personal attacks from Radek (as well as sharp criticism from Martin James and &#8220;asg&#8221;). I can not speak for anyone else but I would guess that the experience of others who sought to defend Ingrid&#8217;s &#8220;dishonest&#8221;, &#8220;ridiculous&#8221; and otherwise irrational post may have been similar. So I would humbly suggest that the &#8220;a plague on both your houses&#8221; tone of your reaction seems a little unfair.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve LaBonne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/02/irresponsibility-and-abortion-in-nicaragua/comment-page-2/#comment-177708</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LaBonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Nov 2006 13:15:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/02/irresponsibility-and-abortion-in-nicaragua/#comment-177708</guid>
		<description>The &quot;flame wars&quot;, aine, arise precisely from the  infuriated responses of people who completely agree with you to &quot;reasonable&quot; people (usually not themselves possessed of uteri) who just don&#039;t get it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The &#8220;flame wars&#8221;, aine, arise precisely from the  infuriated responses of people who completely agree with you to &#8220;reasonable&#8221; people (usually not themselves possessed of uteri) who just don&#8217;t get it.</p>
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		<title>By: Aine Farrell</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/02/irresponsibility-and-abortion-in-nicaragua/comment-page-2/#comment-177689</link>
		<dc:creator>Aine Farrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Nov 2006 04:41:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/02/irresponsibility-and-abortion-in-nicaragua/#comment-177689</guid>
		<description>Well, my first and last time visiting this forum.  The most infuriating and toxic arguments around the issue of reproductive rights (or lack thereof) for women around the world can all be found here with no attention paid to the central factor in the debate. While you attack each other ad hominum and avoid the subject at hand, you ignore the very real and painful reality of millions of women confronted with an unwanted pregnancy. 70% of children in Boston are being raised by single parents. The best predictor for poverty in America is motherhood.  The central issue in the abortion debate should focus on the rights of a pregnant women to be unpregnant vs. the rights of the foetus she is carrying. What follows is a debate between science and religion over when human life begins.  The only salient point in this discussion is that no man has the right to apply his religious beliefs onto someone else&#039;s pregnancy. It&#039;s called seperation of church and state and is the reason most of us ended up here. My sisters in Nicaragua have my heartfelt sympathy. Rape, incest, and fallopian tube pregnancies are distractions from the real issue at hand--how much of a woman&#039;s fate should be of her own making.  
Have fun with your petty little flame wars. Life is bigger than that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, my first and last time visiting this forum.  The most infuriating and toxic arguments around the issue of reproductive rights (or lack thereof) for women around the world can all be found here with no attention paid to the central factor in the debate. While you attack each other ad hominum and avoid the subject at hand, you ignore the very real and painful reality of millions of women confronted with an unwanted pregnancy. 70% of children in Boston are being raised by single parents. The best predictor for poverty in America is motherhood.  The central issue in the abortion debate should focus on the rights of a pregnant women to be unpregnant vs. the rights of the foetus she is carrying. What follows is a debate between science and religion over when human life begins.  The only salient point in this discussion is that no man has the right to apply his religious beliefs onto someone else&#8217;s pregnancy. It&#8217;s called seperation of church and state and is the reason most of us ended up here. My sisters in Nicaragua have my heartfelt sympathy. Rape, incest, and fallopian tube pregnancies are distractions from the real issue at hand&#8212;how much of a woman&#8217;s fate should be of her own making.<br />
Have fun with your petty little flame wars. Life is bigger than that.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin James</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/02/irresponsibility-and-abortion-in-nicaragua/comment-page-2/#comment-177675</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Nov 2006 23:52:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/02/irresponsibility-and-abortion-in-nicaragua/#comment-177675</guid>
		<description>On the related issue of rape reduction. I recently heard a spot our public radio station by the local library historian about how 100 years ago prostitution was tolerated by law enforcement on the theory that men needed an outlet for their sexual urges and that prostitution served a valuable role in rape reduction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>On the related issue of rape reduction. I recently heard a spot our public radio station by the local library historian about how 100 years ago prostitution was tolerated by law enforcement on the theory that men needed an outlet for their sexual urges and that prostitution served a valuable role in rape reduction.</p>
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		<title>By: ingrid</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/02/irresponsibility-and-abortion-in-nicaragua/comment-page-2/#comment-177662</link>
		<dc:creator>ingrid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Nov 2006 21:46:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/02/irresponsibility-and-abortion-in-nicaragua/#comment-177662</guid>
		<description>By the way, in response to Steve Labonne&#039;s (#35) comment about queue-jumping of comments: comments by people who post for the first time to Crooked Timber (not sure whether it&#039;s only from a new e-mail address or also from another IP address), need to be approved for moderation (this is necessary to filter out spam). But when these comments are approved, they take the position that they had at the moment of submitting the comment. So that is why sometimes the numbering changes. I agree that can be annoying if you refer to another comment by it&#039;s number. It&#039;s therefore safer, but admittedly not so convenient, to refer to the name of the person writing the comment, rather than the comment&#039;s present number.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>By the way, in response to Steve Labonne&#8217;s (#35) comment about queue-jumping of comments: comments by people who post for the first time to Crooked Timber (not sure whether it&#8217;s only from a new e-mail address or also from another IP address), need to be approved for moderation (this is necessary to filter out spam). But when these comments are approved, they take the position that they had at the moment of submitting the comment. So that is why sometimes the numbering changes. I agree that can be annoying if you refer to another comment by it&#8217;s number. It&#8217;s therefore safer, but admittedly not so convenient, to refer to the name of the person writing the comment, rather than the comment&#8217;s present number.</p>
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		<title>By: ingrid</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/02/irresponsibility-and-abortion-in-nicaragua/comment-page-2/#comment-177660</link>
		<dc:creator>ingrid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Nov 2006 21:37:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/02/irresponsibility-and-abortion-in-nicaragua/#comment-177660</guid>
		<description>If you think it&#039;s OK to aggressively attack before asking for clarification or before contemplating for ten seconds, or if you get a kick from being insulting or aggressive, there is good news: here is more ridicilous material to shoot at.

Perhaps I should have taken more care in formulating my sentences, since some &quot;interpretations&quot; in the comments are not what I subscribe to, and perhaps it could have saved us from the bad part of this thread (though I wonder whether one could write about abortion without provoking some rather nasty, and in my view uncharitable, comments.) 

In any case, I think Alison (#21) gives a better interpretation of the orignal post than some others do; and I agree that aiming for a reduction in the number of late abortions by having a same-number increase in earlier abortions is, all other things equal, a good thing. 

My critique on the Nicaraguan position is in part based on the belief that if a woman is pregnant and really doesn&#039;t want to continue the pregnancy, she will try whatever she can to have an abortion; and I further assume that for the vast majority of women pregnancies resulting from rape or incest are strongly unwanted, up to the point of being (psychologically) unbearable. If that is true, then the first step in minimising the number of abortions is to minimise the number of unwanted pregnancies. 
Therefore the policy mix I&#039;d support is making contraceptives effectively available AND providing sexual education AND empowering women AND supporting women who do choose to continue the pregnancy AND giving women access to safe abortions up to a certain week in the pregnancy. (Thanks to the commentators who highlighted the sexual education and empowerment issues - I should have mentioned them in the original post). If you have this policy mix, I would hope that (a) you minimise the number of unwanted pregnancies in the first place, and (b) from all the abortions that will happen whatever their legality, you minimise the probability that they will take place later in the pregnancy or in unsafe conditions. And you don&#039;t create a society where the effective options for how to deal with unwanted pregnancies are strongly unequal between the rich and the poor.

I&#039;m happy to admit that this is a refinement/restatement of the view in the original post, prompted by some interesting comments (though in my view it is not a categorical change). If those who thought my original post was ridicilous still think so, so be it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If you think it&#8217;s OK to aggressively attack before asking for clarification or before contemplating for ten seconds, or if you get a kick from being insulting or aggressive, there is good news: here is more ridicilous material to shoot at.</p>

	<p>Perhaps I should have taken more care in formulating my sentences, since some &#8220;interpretations&#8221; in the comments are not what I subscribe to, and perhaps it could have saved us from the bad part of this thread (though I wonder whether one could write about abortion without provoking some rather nasty, and in my view uncharitable, comments.)</p>

	<p>In any case, I think Alison (#21) gives a better interpretation of the orignal post than some others do; and I agree that aiming for a reduction in the number of late abortions by having a same-number increase in earlier abortions is, all other things equal, a good thing.</p>

	<p>My critique on the Nicaraguan position is in part based on the belief that if a woman is pregnant and really doesn&#8217;t want to continue the pregnancy, she will try whatever she can to have an abortion; and I further assume that for the vast majority of women pregnancies resulting from rape or incest are strongly unwanted, up to the point of being (psychologically) unbearable. If that is true, then the first step in minimising the number of abortions is to minimise the number of unwanted pregnancies.<br />
Therefore the policy mix I&#8217;d support is making contraceptives effectively available <span class="caps">AND</span> providing sexual education <span class="caps">AND</span> empowering women <span class="caps">AND</span> supporting women who do choose to continue the pregnancy <span class="caps">AND</span> giving women access to safe abortions up to a certain week in the pregnancy. (Thanks to the commentators who highlighted the sexual education and empowerment issues &#8211; I should have mentioned them in the original post). If you have this policy mix, I would hope that (a) you minimise the number of unwanted pregnancies in the first place, and (b) from all the abortions that will happen whatever their legality, you minimise the probability that they will take place later in the pregnancy or in unsafe conditions. And you don&#8217;t create a society where the effective options for how to deal with unwanted pregnancies are strongly unequal between the rich and the poor.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m happy to admit that this is a refinement/restatement of the view in the original post, prompted by some interesting comments (though in my view it is not a categorical change). If those who thought my original post was ridicilous still think so, so be it.</p>
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		<title>By: radek</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/02/irresponsibility-and-abortion-in-nicaragua/comment-page-2/#comment-177658</link>
		<dc:creator>radek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Nov 2006 20:58:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/02/irresponsibility-and-abortion-in-nicaragua/#comment-177658</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;This is like the “You’re the troll!” “No, you’re the troll!” game. Yawn.&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>This is like the &#8220;You&#8217;re the troll!&#8221; &#8220;No, you&#8217;re the troll!&#8221; game. Yawn.</i></p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/02/irresponsibility-and-abortion-in-nicaragua/comment-page-2/#comment-177654</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Nov 2006 20:04:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/02/irresponsibility-and-abortion-in-nicaragua/#comment-177654</guid>
		<description>And while that may seem a little curt, frankly I am tired of your trollish mélange of weak arguments mixed in with silly, over-the-top insults. So it will have to do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>And while that may seem a little curt, frankly I am tired of your trollish m&#233;lange of weak arguments mixed in with silly, over-the-top insults. So it will have to do.</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/02/irresponsibility-and-abortion-in-nicaragua/comment-page-2/#comment-177651</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Nov 2006 18:44:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/02/irresponsibility-and-abortion-in-nicaragua/#comment-177651</guid>
		<description>What Steve Labonne said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What Steve Labonne said.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve LaBonne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/02/irresponsibility-and-abortion-in-nicaragua/comment-page-2/#comment-177647</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LaBonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Nov 2006 18:18:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/02/irresponsibility-and-abortion-in-nicaragua/#comment-177647</guid>
		<description>Try a mirror.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Try a mirror.</p>
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		<title>By: radek</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/02/irresponsibility-and-abortion-in-nicaragua/comment-page-2/#comment-177646</link>
		<dc:creator>radek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Nov 2006 18:08:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/02/irresponsibility-and-abortion-in-nicaragua/#comment-177646</guid>
		<description>Engels, yours was post #41. Plenty of articulation in the meantime. Did you just have some inner rage you needed to get out?

&lt;i&gt;on some threads about “social liberties”, we see some of our regular “libertarian” commentators coming in on the side of liberty. To my knowledge, I have never seen this once.&lt;/i&gt;

I don&#039;t know what threads and which &#039;liberterian&#039; commentators (not including the occasional cross over from the Corner or whatever) you&#039;re referring to but this seems just like a baseless assertion. Again, this blog is left of center, which is reflected in most of the comments with a sprinkling of some liberterians. And these two groups pretty much agree on social issues, with the possible exception of abortion which is much more complex (and let me remphasize this again since you&#039;re completly ignoring it, prefering to attack your own fata morganas - everyone on this thread agreed abortion should be legal!). You want me to prove my social liberal cred? Fine. War on drugs bad. Gay marriage should be subsidies to make up for past discrimination. Immigration, more please. Homeland security and patriot act, stupid, wasteful and authoritarian. Swat teams and no-knock raids, trouble, trouble, trouble. Hell, I&#039;ll throw in higher gas taxes and higher EITC for poor folks while we&#039;re at it. On a good day you might convince me to extend unemployment insurance.
This is like the Cory Maye post where some commentators on here were trying to score cheap ideological points by saying &quot;where are the liberterians on this? see how hypocritical they are!&quot; while liberterians were actually doing most of the leg work on spreading the news.

And when you begin by questioning people&#039;s motivations rather then engaging their arguments (again, post #41) then yeah, I think you&#039;re just having an idelogical knee jerk reaction.

Steve Lebonne - &quot;these people&quot;? Where are they, I don&#039;t see them. Yup much better to just call&#039;em &quot;these people&quot; then actually say something substantial.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Engels, yours was post #41. Plenty of articulation in the meantime. Did you just have some inner rage you needed to get out?</p>

	<p><i>on some threads about &#8220;social liberties&#8221;, we see some of our regular &#8220;libertarian&#8221; commentators coming in on the side of liberty. To my knowledge, I have never seen this once.</i></p>

	<p>I don&#8217;t know what threads and which &#8216;liberterian&#8217; commentators (not including the occasional cross over from the Corner or whatever) you&#8217;re referring to but this seems just like a baseless assertion. Again, this blog is left of center, which is reflected in most of the comments with a sprinkling of some liberterians. And these two groups pretty much agree on social issues, with the possible exception of abortion which is much more complex (and let me remphasize this again since you&#8217;re completly ignoring it, prefering to attack your own fata morganas &#8211; everyone on this thread agreed abortion should be legal!). You want me to prove my social liberal cred? Fine. War on drugs bad. Gay marriage should be subsidies to make up for past discrimination. Immigration, more please. Homeland security and patriot act, stupid, wasteful and authoritarian. Swat teams and no-knock raids, trouble, trouble, trouble. Hell, I&#8217;ll throw in higher gas taxes and higher <span class="caps">EITC</span> for poor folks while we&#8217;re at it. On a good day you might convince me to extend unemployment insurance.<br />
This is like the Cory Maye post where some commentators on here were trying to score cheap ideological points by saying &#8220;where are the liberterians on this? see how hypocritical they are!&#8221; while liberterians were actually doing most of the leg work on spreading the news.</p>

	<p>And when you begin by questioning people&#8217;s motivations rather then engaging their arguments (again, post #41) then yeah, I think you&#8217;re just having an idelogical knee jerk reaction.</p>

	<p>Steve Lebonne &#8211; &#8220;these people&#8221;? Where are they, I don&#8217;t see them. Yup much better to just call&#8217;em &#8220;these people&#8221; then actually say something substantial.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve LaBonne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/02/irresponsibility-and-abortion-in-nicaragua/comment-page-2/#comment-177632</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LaBonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Nov 2006 13:54:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/02/irresponsibility-and-abortion-in-nicaragua/#comment-177632</guid>
		<description>engels, we need a sound bite to describe these people- I&#039;ll start the bidding by suggesting &quot;liberty for me but not for thee&quot;. Not very original, I know, but it fits.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>engels, we need a sound bite to describe these people- I&#8217;ll start the bidding by suggesting &#8220;liberty for me but not for thee&#8221;. Not very original, I know, but it fits.</p>
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		<title>By: astrongmaybe</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/02/irresponsibility-and-abortion-in-nicaragua/comment-page-2/#comment-177618</link>
		<dc:creator>astrongmaybe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Nov 2006 09:45:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/02/irresponsibility-and-abortion-in-nicaragua/#comment-177618</guid>
		<description>This thread, infuriating as it is, has taught me something at least. You see, as a happy hermeneuting-humanist, one can’t help having a slight residual inferiority complex regarding the slightly harder and more empirically-minded disciplines. But the literal- and narrow-mindedness shown by some on this thread (“Minimize!” “But she said ‘minimize’, &lt;i&gt;therefore&lt;/i&gt;, Captain…”) have cheered me up no end. Identifying ‘means’ and ‘ends’ is no guarantee of sanity! It seems every field gets the scholasticism it deserves! Hurray! (Though I guess Weber knew that all along.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This thread, infuriating as it is, has taught me something at least. You see, as a happy hermeneuting-humanist, one can&#8217;t help having a slight residual inferiority complex regarding the slightly harder and more empirically-minded disciplines. But the literal- and narrow-mindedness shown by some on this thread (&#8220;Minimize!&#8221; &#8220;But she said &#8216;minimize&#8217;, <i>therefore</i>, Captain&#8230;&#8221;) have cheered me up no end. Identifying &#8216;means&#8217; and &#8216;ends&#8217; is no guarantee of sanity! It seems every field gets the scholasticism it deserves! Hurray! (Though I guess Weber knew that all along.)</p>
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