Comments on: And Then On The Other Hand I Might…Keep The Wax (Reprint) http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/14/and-then-on-the-other-hand-i-mightkeep-the-wax-reprint/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Mon, 13 Feb 2012 09:49:20 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: paul http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/14/and-then-on-the-other-hand-i-mightkeep-the-wax-reprint/comment-page-1/#comment-179177 paul Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:26:16 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/14/and-then-on-the-other-hand-i-mightkeep-the-wax-reprint/#comment-179177 I think PK has it. If the wax only retains some taste of honey rather than retaining all or most of the honey itself, then it's already been pressed or spun (when was the centrifugal extractor for honeycombs invented?) to extract the honey and retains little if any of its regular hexagonal pattern. That we might think of something like that delicate hotel display as the "true" shape of beeswax or even of a honeycomb (which is typically multilayered and completely regular only over short distances) is a sign of how thoroughly the pastoral fallacy has taken hold. Oh, and that comb pattern in wound-up-sheet beeswax candles: is there anyone who doesn't think it comes from the rollers? I think PK has it. If the wax only retains some taste of honey rather than retaining all or most of the honey itself, then it’s already been pressed or spun (when was the centrifugal extractor for honeycombs invented?) to extract the honey and retains little if any of its regular hexagonal pattern.

That we might think of something like that delicate hotel display as the “true” shape of beeswax or even of a honeycomb (which is typically multilayered and completely regular only over short distances) is a sign of how thoroughly the pastoral fallacy has taken hold.

Oh, and that comb pattern in wound-up-sheet beeswax candles: is there anyone who doesn’t think it comes from the rollers?

]]> By: lemuel pitkin http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/14/and-then-on-the-other-hand-i-mightkeep-the-wax-reprint/comment-page-1/#comment-178985 lemuel pitkin Wed, 15 Nov 2006 17:15:20 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/14/and-then-on-the-other-hand-i-mightkeep-the-wax-reprint/#comment-178985 We modern, urban folk are surrounded my manufactured products that often have regular, geometric shapes. Natural objects around us are contrastingly complex and irregular. That's what makes the honeycomb so striking to us. 500 years ago, manmade objects were overwhelmingly artisanal rather than mass-produced, and much more likely to be irregular themselves. There was little if any sense that regular/geometric = artificial and irregular = natural, as is second nature to us today. So the hexagons of the honeycomb wouldn't be especially striking. Just speculating, mind you. We modern, urban folk are surrounded my manufactured products that often have regular, geometric shapes. Natural objects around us are contrastingly complex and irregular. That’s what makes the honeycomb so striking to us.

500 years ago, manmade objects were overwhelmingly artisanal rather than mass-produced, and much more likely to be irregular themselves. There was little if any sense that regular/geometric = artificial and irregular = natural, as is second nature to us today. So the hexagons of the honeycomb wouldn’t be especially striking.

Just speculating, mind you.

]]> By: Thom Brooks http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/14/and-then-on-the-other-hand-i-mightkeep-the-wax-reprint/comment-page-1/#comment-178950 Thom Brooks Wed, 15 Nov 2006 12:24:29 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/14/and-then-on-the-other-hand-i-mightkeep-the-wax-reprint/#comment-178950 I love the Zappa allusion in the title! I might be moving to Montana soon.... I love the Zappa allusion in the title! I might be moving to Montana soon….

]]> By: Brendan http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/14/and-then-on-the-other-hand-i-mightkeep-the-wax-reprint/comment-page-1/#comment-178948 Brendan Wed, 15 Nov 2006 11:27:29 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/14/and-then-on-the-other-hand-i-mightkeep-the-wax-reprint/#comment-178948 I don't know too much about this but is this not an attempt to create an argument for essentialism, and does this not lead onto the idea of 'primary' and 'secondary' qualities, which was used by Locke to demonstrate something or other? I don’t know too much about this but is this not an attempt to create an argument for essentialism, and does this not lead onto the idea of ‘primary’ and ‘secondary’ qualities, which was used by Locke to demonstrate something or other?

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/14/and-then-on-the-other-hand-i-mightkeep-the-wax-reprint/comment-page-1/#comment-178941 abb1 Wed, 15 Nov 2006 09:56:09 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/14/and-then-on-the-other-hand-i-mightkeep-the-wax-reprint/#comment-178941 The point is, I think, that the "shape is lost", in the sense that it did have shape before (hexagon or lump, doesn't matter), and now it's liquid and has no shape at all. The point is, I think, that the “shape is lost”, in the sense that it did have shape before (hexagon or lump, doesn’t matter), and now it’s liquid and has no shape at all.

]]> By: bad Jim http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/14/and-then-on-the-other-hand-i-mightkeep-the-wax-reprint/comment-page-1/#comment-178938 bad Jim Wed, 15 Nov 2006 08:56:04 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/14/and-then-on-the-other-hand-i-mightkeep-the-wax-reprint/#comment-178938 A little too late to wax philosophical, which I rarely do in any case, but two things struck me: First, he might have been describing a new candle, in which case the comb structure might not have been a prominent feature, particularly if the light was poor. Second, the question "does the same wax remain?" echoes Heraclitus rather oddly, although he must be wondering whether the wax was transformed by melting, not suggesting that it was somehow replaced by other wax. A little too late to wax philosophical, which I rarely do in any case, but two things struck me:

First, he might have been describing a new candle, in which case the comb structure might not have been a prominent feature, particularly if the light was poor.

Second, the question “does the same wax remain?” echoes Heraclitus rather oddly, although he must be wondering whether the wax was transformed by melting, not suggesting that it was somehow replaced by other wax.

]]> By: Jackmormon http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/14/and-then-on-the-other-hand-i-mightkeep-the-wax-reprint/comment-page-1/#comment-178930 Jackmormon Wed, 15 Nov 2006 06:53:35 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/14/and-then-on-the-other-hand-i-mightkeep-the-wax-reprint/#comment-178930 No. No.

]]> By: ogged http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/14/and-then-on-the-other-hand-i-mightkeep-the-wax-reprint/comment-page-1/#comment-178924 ogged Wed, 15 Nov 2006 05:04:21 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/14/and-then-on-the-other-hand-i-mightkeep-the-wax-reprint/#comment-178924 Ignore my "it's" error. Please. Ignore my “it’s” error. Please.

]]> By: John Emerson http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/14/and-then-on-the-other-hand-i-mightkeep-the-wax-reprint/comment-page-1/#comment-178922 John Emerson Wed, 15 Nov 2006 04:49:43 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/14/and-then-on-the-other-hand-i-mightkeep-the-wax-reprint/#comment-178922 You may think that honey can be eaten, or beeswax be used, without guilt. The truth is that bees are treated <a href="http://www.vegansociety.com/html/animals/exploitation/bees.php" rel="nofollow">very cruelly indeed</a>. You may think that honey can be eaten, or beeswax be used, without guilt. The truth is that bees are treated very cruelly indeed.

]]> By: ogged http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/14/and-then-on-the-other-hand-i-mightkeep-the-wax-reprint/comment-page-1/#comment-178917 ogged Wed, 15 Nov 2006 03:36:50 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/14/and-then-on-the-other-hand-i-mightkeep-the-wax-reprint/#comment-178917 <blockquote>wasn’t any of that—the smell; the taste; the sound—doing any work at all?</blockquote> I think the answer is "no," because he's not talking about perceiving the wax itself, but it's "nature." Only the mind can comprehend the form of a thing, right? As for the honeycomb, I don't know jack about making honey, but isn't it possible that he's talking about beeswax, which isn't comb-y? Finally, from the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honeycomb" rel="nofollow">Wikipedia article</a> on honeycombs, <blockquote>Honeycomb is also a popular Tv show in sweden. It is mainly watched by an audience of elderly and slow people. It is not recommended for mature audiences like 5 and 6 year olds.</blockquote>
wasn’t any of that—the smell; the taste; the sound—doing any work at all?

I think the answer is “no,” because he’s not talking about perceiving the wax itself, but it’s “nature.” Only the mind can comprehend the form of a thing, right?

As for the honeycomb, I don’t know jack about making honey, but isn’t it possible that he’s talking about beeswax, which isn’t comb-y?

Finally, from the Wikipedia article on honeycombs,

Honeycomb is also a popular Tv show in sweden. It is mainly watched by an audience of elderly and slow people. It is not recommended for mature audiences like 5 and 6 year olds.

]]> By: Brandon Berg http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/14/and-then-on-the-other-hand-i-mightkeep-the-wax-reprint/comment-page-1/#comment-178912 Brandon Berg Wed, 15 Nov 2006 02:41:38 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/14/and-then-on-the-other-hand-i-mightkeep-the-wax-reprint/#comment-178912 Doesn't he just mean that it's solely by the faculty of his judgment that he's able to determine that the melted wax is the same object as the unmelted comb he saw before? It seems to me the point is that he was able to understand this even though his senses suggested to him that the two were entirely different. Doesn’t he just mean that it’s solely by the faculty of his judgment that he’s able to determine that the melted wax is the same object as the unmelted comb he saw before? It seems to me the point is that he was able to understand this even though his senses suggested to him that the two were entirely different.

]]> By: David http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/14/and-then-on-the-other-hand-i-mightkeep-the-wax-reprint/comment-page-1/#comment-178911 David Wed, 15 Nov 2006 02:30:45 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/14/and-then-on-the-other-hand-i-mightkeep-the-wax-reprint/#comment-178911 One other point: is the wax's hexagonal structure a *sensible* quality for Descartes? I suspect not, but I'm not a Descartes expert. One other point: is the wax’s hexagonal structure a sensible quality for Descartes? I suspect not, but I’m not a Descartes expert.

]]> By: PK http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/14/and-then-on-the-other-hand-i-mightkeep-the-wax-reprint/comment-page-1/#comment-178910 PK Wed, 15 Nov 2006 02:30:32 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/14/and-then-on-the-other-hand-i-mightkeep-the-wax-reprint/#comment-178910 When I've read that passage, I've always imagined the wax as just a lump -- like what you'd get if you crushed the comb in your hand, and not the original regular hexagonal lattice. After all, the wax is 'fresh from the comb', not 'fresh from the hive'. When I’ve read that passage, I’ve always imagined the wax as just a lump—like what you’d get if you crushed the comb in your hand, and not the original regular hexagonal lattice. After all, the wax is ‘fresh from the comb’, not ‘fresh from the hive’.

]]> By: David http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/14/and-then-on-the-other-hand-i-mightkeep-the-wax-reprint/comment-page-1/#comment-178909 David Wed, 15 Nov 2006 02:27:41 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/14/and-then-on-the-other-hand-i-mightkeep-the-wax-reprint/#comment-178909 Well, he does mention its shape. I don't think he focuses on its specific, hexagonal structure, because he is quickly going through the properties detected by the five senses. He chooses instead to mention its color and size along with its shape. Well, he does mention its shape. I don’t think he focuses on its specific, hexagonal structure, because he is quickly going through the properties detected by the five senses. He chooses instead to mention its color and size along with its shape.

]]> By: Belle Waring http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/14/and-then-on-the-other-hand-i-mightkeep-the-wax-reprint/comment-page-1/#comment-178905 Belle Waring Wed, 15 Nov 2006 02:06:38 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/14/and-then-on-the-other-hand-i-mightkeep-the-wax-reprint/#comment-178905 it would be more accurate to say that the wax example itself is simple enough but the conclusions he draws from it, and its status in the context of the second meditation, are confusing. the part I've quoted is, in fact, straightforward. it would be more accurate to say that the wax example itself is simple enough but the conclusions he draws from it, and its status in the context of the second meditation, are confusing. the part I’ve quoted is, in fact, straightforward.

]]>