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	<title>Comments on: Russian dolls</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/24/russian-dolls/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: giustino</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/24/russian-dolls/comment-page-3/#comment-180662</link>
		<dc:creator>giustino</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Nov 2006 02:50:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/24/russian-dolls/#comment-180662</guid>
		<description>If Russia wanted to be successful it would be like Sweden and build cheap but stylish furniture (Ikea) and sturdy cars (Volvo). Once they realize that power is not in having people sing your national anthem, but in selling them a lot of affordable goods - they&#039;d have fewer problems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If Russia wanted to be successful it would be like Sweden and build cheap but stylish furniture (Ikea) and sturdy cars (Volvo). Once they realize that power is not in having people sing your national anthem, but in selling them a lot of affordable goods &#8211; they&#8217;d have fewer problems.</p>
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		<title>By: giustino</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/24/russian-dolls/comment-page-3/#comment-180660</link>
		<dc:creator>giustino</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Nov 2006 02:46:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/24/russian-dolls/#comment-180660</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Yes, that is probably part of their thinking. They may even be right, even if I actually doubt it. But my point is: So what?&lt;/i&gt;

Their foreign policy elite includes a cadre of weirdos who think that owning a lot of space on a map of the world means something.

I mean Russia still disputes the useless Kuril Islands with Japan, just because it wants to remain large, even if there is no easy way for any Russian from Moscow to get there.

In other words, some of them (the Russian foreign policy shapers) are nuts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Yes, that is probably part of their thinking. They may even be right, even if I actually doubt it. But my point is: So what?</i></p>

	<p>Their foreign policy elite includes a cadre of weirdos who think that owning a lot of space on a map of the world means something.</p>

	<p>I mean Russia still disputes the useless Kuril Islands with Japan, just because it wants to remain large, even if there is no easy way for any Russian from Moscow to get there.</p>

	<p>In other words, some of them (the Russian foreign policy shapers) are nuts.</p>
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		<title>By: stostosto</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/24/russian-dolls/comment-page-3/#comment-180640</link>
		<dc:creator>stostosto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Nov 2006 23:47:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/24/russian-dolls/#comment-180640</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;In my opinion, the Russians are wasting their time in Grozny. But they think that if one republic in Russia proper secedes then Tatarstan and Dagestan and Mari-El will follow.&lt;/i&gt;

Yes, that is probably part of their thinking. They may even be right, even if I actually doubt it. But my point is: So what?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>In my opinion, the Russians are wasting their time in Grozny. But they think that if one republic in Russia proper secedes then Tatarstan and Dagestan and Mari-El will follow.</i></p>

	<p>Yes, that is probably part of their thinking. They may even be right, even if I actually doubt it. But my point is: So what?</p>
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		<title>By: giustino</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/24/russian-dolls/comment-page-3/#comment-180597</link>
		<dc:creator>giustino</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Nov 2006 17:36:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/24/russian-dolls/#comment-180597</guid>
		<description>#128&lt;i&gt;And I stand by my psychobabble. Russians are irrational about their status and emotionally invested in obsolete geopolitical power politics. Consider this: Does Russia rationally have anything to fear from Estonia’s, Latvia’s or Lithuania’s NATO membership? Or, indeed, from a seceded Chechnya?&lt;/i&gt;

They are all freaked out because NATO planes patrol Baltic airspace. But at the same time, their planes violate Estonian airspace all the time. And they don&#039;t apologize - they deny it occurs. What&#039;s an Eestlane to do?

If Russia had said, &quot;Go ahead, join NATO, see if we care&quot; - it wouldn&#039;t have happened. But instead they jumped up and down and made threats and pushed the Baltics FARTHER away into NATO&#039;s arms.

And it&#039;s not just the US. Iceland, Denmark, and Norway, all supported NATO membership for Estonia. Does Norway present a threat to Russia as a NATO member? You may say &quot;but Norway&#039;s border is so far north&quot;

Yes, but every Russian ship or submarine that sails out of Murmansk, the headquarters of Russia&#039;s northern fleet and nuclear submarine arsenal, has to go through Norwegian waters. So in a way, Norway is a more threatening NATO partner than Estonia is. I mean what role would Estonia play in NATO? The forward staging ground for an attack on St. Petersburg? Trust me, if it came to that, whomever was making that attack would have no problem securing an alliance with Finland. Even neutral Sweden let Nazi Germany transport resources through its country in World War II. Let&#039;s get serious here.

The Chechnyan independence issue is separate, and here&#039;s why. Russia has all but confessed that it occupied the Baltic countries. They signed peace treaties in 1918-1920 with Finland, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, recognizing them as independent countries in perpetuity. Even when they occupied those countries, they remained SSR - individual republics, not parts of Russia proper.

Russia has never acknowledged that Chechnya is anything but a part of the Russian Federation.

In my opinion, the Russians are wasting their time in Grozny. But they think that if one republic in Russia proper secedes then Tatarstan and Dagestan and Mari-El will follow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>#128<i>And I stand by my psychobabble. Russians are irrational about their status and emotionally invested in obsolete geopolitical power politics. Consider this: Does Russia rationally have anything to fear from Estonia&#8217;s, Latvia&#8217;s or Lithuania&#8217;s <span class="caps">NATO</span> membership? Or, indeed, from a seceded Chechnya?</i></p>

	<p>They are all freaked out because <span class="caps">NATO</span> planes patrol Baltic airspace. But at the same time, their planes violate Estonian airspace all the time. And they don&#8217;t apologize &#8211; they deny it occurs. What&#8217;s an Eestlane to do?</p>

	<p>If Russia had said, &#8220;Go ahead, join <span class="caps">NATO</span>, see if we care&#8221; &#8211; it wouldn&#8217;t have happened. But instead they jumped up and down and made threats and pushed the Baltics <span class="caps">FARTHER</span> away into <span class="caps">NATO</span>&#8217;s arms.</p>

	<p>And it&#8217;s not just the US. Iceland, Denmark, and Norway, all supported <span class="caps">NATO</span> membership for Estonia. Does Norway present a threat to Russia as a <span class="caps">NATO</span> member? You may say &#8220;but Norway&#8217;s border is so far north&#8221;</p>

	<p>Yes, but every Russian ship or submarine that sails out of Murmansk, the headquarters of Russia&#8217;s northern fleet and nuclear submarine arsenal, has to go through Norwegian waters. So in a way, Norway is a more threatening <span class="caps">NATO</span> partner than Estonia is. I mean what role would Estonia play in <span class="caps">NATO</span>? The forward staging ground for an attack on St. Petersburg? Trust me, if it came to that, whomever was making that attack would have no problem securing an alliance with Finland. Even neutral Sweden let Nazi Germany transport resources through its country in World War II. Let&#8217;s get serious here.</p>

	<p>The Chechnyan independence issue is separate, and here&#8217;s why. Russia has all but confessed that it occupied the Baltic countries. They signed peace treaties in 1918-1920 with Finland, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, recognizing them as independent countries in perpetuity. Even when they occupied those countries, they remained <span class="caps">SSR </span>- individual republics, not parts of Russia proper.</p>

	<p>Russia has never acknowledged that Chechnya is anything but a part of the Russian Federation.</p>

	<p>In my opinion, the Russians are wasting their time in Grozny. But they think that if one republic in Russia proper secedes then Tatarstan and Dagestan and Mari-El will follow.</p>
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		<title>By: Elise</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/24/russian-dolls/comment-page-3/#comment-180568</link>
		<dc:creator>Elise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Nov 2006 13:24:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/24/russian-dolls/#comment-180568</guid>
		<description>92: Oh, which reminds me: going back to where it all started in this thread – NATO. See, if I were Estonia or Latvia and wanted a real independence, I would try to follow the path of Austria, Finland, Sweden – to stay non-allied, to avoid becoming a client state with someone’s military bases all over the place and stuff like that. This doesn’t seem to be happening there. Too bad. 


I think neutrality in this region is an illusion.
Austria and Sweden are in a completely different position. 
As far as Finland is concerned, Tarja Halonen - the President of Finland - has become Putin&#039;s personal cheerleader in the EU, along with Jaques Chirac of France. Finland&#039;s EU presidency has turned into a fiasco due to the way they handle Russia.
Finland and the Baltic States have chosen different paths.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>92: Oh, which reminds me: going back to where it all started in this thread &#8211; <span class="caps">NATO</span>. See, if I were Estonia or Latvia and wanted a real independence, I would try to follow the path of Austria, Finland, Sweden &#8211; to stay non-allied, to avoid becoming a client state with someone&#8217;s military bases all over the place and stuff like that. This doesn&#8217;t seem to be happening there. Too bad.</p>


	<p>I think neutrality in this region is an illusion.<br />
Austria and Sweden are in a completely different position.<br />
As far as Finland is concerned, Tarja Halonen &#8211; the President of Finland &#8211; has become Putin&#8217;s personal cheerleader in the EU, along with Jaques Chirac of France. Finland&#8217;s EU presidency has turned into a fiasco due to the way they handle Russia.<br />
Finland and the Baltic States have chosen different paths.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/24/russian-dolls/comment-page-3/#comment-180557</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:52:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/24/russian-dolls/#comment-180557</guid>
		<description>Filiberto Rios was killed quite recently (which is why I mentioned it), it was in the newspapers. 

And if you want to argue that these guys are violent - yes, that&#039;s exactly my point: typically violence is the only way to achieve independence. That&#039;s not controversial, such is life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Filiberto Rios was killed quite recently (which is why I mentioned it), it was in the newspapers.</p>

	<p>And if you want to argue that these guys are violent &#8211; yes, that&#8217;s exactly my point: typically violence is the only way to achieve independence. That&#8217;s not controversial, such is life.</p>
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		<title>By: jonny-boy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/24/russian-dolls/comment-page-3/#comment-180540</link>
		<dc:creator>jonny-boy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Nov 2006 06:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/24/russian-dolls/#comment-180540</guid>
		<description>&gt; Good for you, brother, good for you. These are all very different
&gt; perspectives indeed. Keep at it, boy. 

Of course they aren&#039;t - I&#039;m suggesting that they&#039;d be a useful supplement to wherever you got PR separatists shot like dogs (I&#039;m curious to learn where you got THAT nugget from).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>> Good for you, brother, good for you. These are all very different<br />
> perspectives indeed. Keep at it, boy.</p>

	<p>Of course they aren&#8217;t &#8211; I&#8217;m suggesting that they&#8217;d be a useful supplement to wherever you got PR separatists shot like dogs (I&#8217;m curious to learn where you got <span class="caps">THAT</span> nugget from).</p>
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		<title>By: A Blog Around The Clock</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/24/russian-dolls/comment-page-3/#comment-180525</link>
		<dc:creator>A Blog Around The Clock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Nov 2006 03:39:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/24/russian-dolls/#comment-180525</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Blogrolling: C...&lt;/strong&gt;

Here are some blogs with titles that start with the letter C. Am I missing a good one? Yours? Let me know in the comments. Also check (now updated) blogs that start with: Number/Symbol A B......</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><strong>Blogrolling: C&#8230;</strong></p>

	<p>Here are some blogs with titles that start with the letter C. Am I missing a good one? Yours? Let me know in the comments. Also check (now updated) blogs that start with: Number/Symbol <span class="caps">A B</span>&#8230;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jake</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/24/russian-dolls/comment-page-3/#comment-180481</link>
		<dc:creator>Jake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 23:17:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/24/russian-dolls/#comment-180481</guid>
		<description>127: Wikipedia has misled you in this thread, e.g. post 66.  It was the Supreme Soviet of the Lithuanian SSR that passed the resolution, not the Supreme Soviet of the USSR.  Which makes a bit of a difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>127: Wikipedia has misled you in this thread, e.g. post 66.  It was the Supreme Soviet of the Lithuanian <span class="caps">SSR</span> that passed the resolution, not the Supreme Soviet of the <span class="caps">USSR</span>.  Which makes a bit of a difference.</p>
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		<title>By: stostosto</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/24/russian-dolls/comment-page-3/#comment-180472</link>
		<dc:creator>stostosto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 21:55:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/24/russian-dolls/#comment-180472</guid>
		<description>Or, indeed, from a seceded Chechnya?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Or, indeed, from a seceded Chechnya?</p>
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		<title>By: stostosto</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/24/russian-dolls/comment-page-3/#comment-180471</link>
		<dc:creator>stostosto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 21:52:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/24/russian-dolls/#comment-180471</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I talk to Russians all the time – Russians who are not skinheads or stalinists, they do exist, you know – and no one I know has any “regret-tinged hangover”. That’s just nonsense. Neither do I see their government being particularly aggressive in the “near-abroad”, in fact it seems amazingly timid – for a state with an arsenal of 10,000 nuclear warheads.&lt;/i&gt;

They&#039;re plenty aggressive in Chechnya, it seems to me. The war that made Putin.

And I stand by my psychobabble. Russians are irrational about their status and emotionally invested in obsolete geopolitical power politics. Consider this: Does Russia rationally have anything to fear from Estonia&#039;s, Latvia&#039;s or Lithuania&#039;s NATO membership?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I talk to Russians all the time &#8211; Russians who are not skinheads or stalinists, they do exist, you know &#8211; and no one I know has any &#8220;regret-tinged hangover&#8221;. That&#8217;s just nonsense. Neither do I see their government being particularly aggressive in the &#8220;near-abroad&#8221;, in fact it seems amazingly timid &#8211; for a state with an arsenal of 10,000 nuclear warheads.</i></p>

	<p>They&#8217;re plenty aggressive in Chechnya, it seems to me. The war that made Putin.</p>

	<p>And I stand by my psychobabble. Russians are irrational about their status and emotionally invested in obsolete geopolitical power politics. Consider this: Does Russia rationally have anything to fear from Estonia&#8217;s, Latvia&#8217;s or Lithuania&#8217;s <span class="caps">NATO</span> membership?</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/24/russian-dolls/comment-page-3/#comment-180465</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:48:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/24/russian-dolls/#comment-180465</guid>
		<description>Yes! It&#039;s Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit! 1,506,665 articles in English!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yes! It&#8217;s Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit! 1,506,665 articles in English!</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/24/russian-dolls/comment-page-3/#comment-180461</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:13:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/24/russian-dolls/#comment-180461</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d like to know where abb1 gets his knowledge about Russia, too.  Mostly it seems to be wikipidia, which he takes to be a source for nearly everything, as you&#039;ve seen.  It&#039;s not from, say, being in Russia, or reading Russian news papers, or watching Russian TV or the like.  Largely I suspect it&#039;s like his &#039;knowledge&#039; on other subjects- he just makes it up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;d like to know where abb1 gets his knowledge about Russia, too.  Mostly it seems to be wikipidia, which he takes to be a source for nearly everything, as you&#8217;ve seen.  It&#8217;s not from, say, being in Russia, or reading Russian news papers, or watching Russian TV or the like.  Largely I suspect it&#8217;s like his &#8216;knowledge&#8217; on other subjects- he just makes it up.</p>
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		<title>By: Giustino</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/24/russian-dolls/comment-page-3/#comment-180455</link>
		<dc:creator>Giustino</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 19:07:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/24/russian-dolls/#comment-180455</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Of course this is an opportune moment to whip up some nationalism, but an expansionist war? No way, man.&lt;/i&gt;

Most people I know that are familiar with Russia say this. I used to live in Estonia and I am returning to live again soon. I have never been to Russia. I am curious as to where you get your knowledge of Russia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Of course this is an opportune moment to whip up some nationalism, but an expansionist war? No way, man.</i></p>

	<p>Most people I know that are familiar with Russia say this. I used to live in Estonia and I am returning to live again soon. I have never been to Russia. I am curious as to where you get your knowledge of Russia.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/24/russian-dolls/comment-page-3/#comment-180454</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 19:04:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/24/russian-dolls/#comment-180454</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Estonia may mean something historically – but it isn’t worth armed conflict.&lt;/i&gt;

I reject the premise: that they - as a nation, assuming it&#039;s possible to speak of 150 million people as one group - are in an expansionist phase now. They have enough trouble to keep together what&#039;s left there. Their economy is undergoing a huge, incredibly huge transformation. Their social structures are in the middle of a transformation too. They are not really sure who they are.

This is going to take decades. 

Of course this is an opportune moment to whip up some nationalism, but an expansionist war? No way, man.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Estonia may mean something historically &#8211; but it isn&#8217;t worth armed conflict.</i></p>

	<p>I reject the premise: that they &#8211; as a nation, assuming it&#8217;s possible to speak of 150 million people as one group &#8211; are in an expansionist phase now. They have enough trouble to keep together what&#8217;s left there. Their economy is undergoing a huge, incredibly huge transformation. Their social structures are in the middle of a transformation too. They are not really sure who they are.</p>

	<p>This is going to take decades.</p>

	<p>Of course this is an opportune moment to whip up some nationalism, but an expansionist war? No way, man.</p>
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