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	<title>Comments on: The end for endnotes?</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/27/the-end-for-endnotes/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: raj</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/27/the-end-for-endnotes/comment-page-1/#comment-180519</link>
		<dc:creator>raj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Nov 2006 02:57:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/27/the-end-for-endnotes/#comment-180519</guid>
		<description>Footnotes and endnotes serve different purposes.  Footnotes should supplement the text from which they are referenced, whereas endnotes should indicate sources for the text.  That&#039;s pretty much it.

If a footnote is sufficiently lengthy or deemed sufficiently important to the subject matter of the text, the author should consider incorporating the footnote into the text.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Footnotes and endnotes serve different purposes.  Footnotes should supplement the text from which they are referenced, whereas endnotes should indicate sources for the text.  That&#8217;s pretty much it.</p>

	<p>If a footnote is sufficiently lengthy or deemed sufficiently important to the subject matter of the text, the author should consider incorporating the footnote into the text.</p>
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		<title>By: C.L. Ball</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/27/the-end-for-endnotes/comment-page-1/#comment-180436</link>
		<dc:creator>C.L. Ball</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 16:15:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/27/the-end-for-endnotes/#comment-180436</guid>
		<description>This may be a corollary to #26, but footnotes take up more space than endnotes do. In other words, the same book is longer if it has footnotes rather than endnotes. You can see this yourself in a large file in MS Word. Look at the page-length in footnotes, then have Word convert the footnotes to endnotes. The number of pages will shrink.  A shorter book is cheaper to print for academic presses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This may be a corollary to #26, but footnotes take up more space than endnotes do. In other words, the same book is longer if it has footnotes rather than endnotes. You can see this yourself in a large file in <span class="caps">MS </span>Word. Look at the page-length in footnotes, then have Word convert the footnotes to endnotes. The number of pages will shrink.  A shorter book is cheaper to print for academic presses.</p>
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		<title>By: Francis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/27/the-end-for-endnotes/comment-page-1/#comment-180420</link>
		<dc:creator>Francis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 11:38:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/27/the-end-for-endnotes/#comment-180420</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;The rule of thumb is that each footnote reduces the book’s sales by half&lt;/em&gt;

Tell that to Terry Pratchett...

If there&#039;s more than a page or so in the text, you aren&#039;t looking at a note anyway - you&#039;re looking at an appendix.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>The rule of thumb is that each footnote reduces the book&#8217;s sales by half</em></p>

	<p>Tell that to Terry Pratchett&#8230;</p>

	<p>If there&#8217;s more than a page or so in the text, you aren&#8217;t looking at a note anyway &#8211; you&#8217;re looking at an appendix.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard J</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/27/the-end-for-endnotes/comment-page-1/#comment-180414</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 09:47:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/27/the-end-for-endnotes/#comment-180414</guid>
		<description>I agree with Matt. A banal comment, I full well know, but a separate website sounds like a needlessly cumbersome approach.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I agree with Matt. A banal comment, I full well know, but a separate website sounds like a needlessly cumbersome approach.</p>
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		<title>By: Kelly</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/27/the-end-for-endnotes/comment-page-1/#comment-180401</link>
		<dc:creator>Kelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 05:54:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/27/the-end-for-endnotes/#comment-180401</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;And these days, it seems hard to imagine a location where you have access to the source material being cited, but no access to a computer.&lt;/i&gt;
Let me introduce you to the coffee shop and the bar where I do most of my reading/writing,...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>And these days, it seems hard to imagine a location where you have access to the source material being cited, but no access to a computer.</i><br />
Let me introduce you to the coffee shop and the bar where I do most of my reading/writing,&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Weiner</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/27/the-end-for-endnotes/comment-page-1/#comment-180398</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Weiner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 05:48:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/27/the-end-for-endnotes/#comment-180398</guid>
		<description>For that matter, look at your own example. You looked at the endnotes to check the dates on the cited media reports. You didn&#039;t need to go to the source material for this to be worthwhile; the endnotes contained the material you needed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>For that matter, look at your own example. You looked at the endnotes to check the dates on the cited media reports. You didn&#8217;t need to go to the source material for this to be worthwhile; the endnotes contained the material you needed.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Weiner</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/27/the-end-for-endnotes/comment-page-1/#comment-180397</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Weiner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 05:46:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/27/the-end-for-endnotes/#comment-180397</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;And these days, it seems hard to imagine a location where you have access to the source material being cited, but no access to a computer.&lt;/i&gt;

Suppose the source material is a book. You might have both the book you&#039;re reading and the book that&#039;s used as source material with you.

Anyway, the endnotes aren&#039;t totally useless even if you can&#039;t look up the source material RIGHT THEN. By looking at the endnotes you can see that the material is sourced to something, and you may be able to see how reliable/tendentious the source  is (is it &quot;Coulter, A.&quot;?) 

And having to switch back and forth between the book and the supporting website sounds about a million billion times worse than having to flip back and forth between the main text and the end of the book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>And these days, it seems hard to imagine a location where you have access to the source material being cited, but no access to a computer.</i></p>

	<p>Suppose the source material is a book. You might have both the book you&#8217;re reading and the book that&#8217;s used as source material with you.</p>

	<p>Anyway, the endnotes aren&#8217;t totally useless even if you can&#8217;t look up the source material <span class="caps">RIGHT THEN</span>. By looking at the endnotes you can see that the material is sourced to something, and you may be able to see how reliable/tendentious the source  is (is it &#8220;Coulter, A.&#8221;?)</p>

	<p>And having to switch back and forth between the book and the supporting website sounds about a million billion times worse than having to flip back and forth between the main text and the end of the book.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/27/the-end-for-endnotes/comment-page-1/#comment-180393</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 05:30:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/27/the-end-for-endnotes/#comment-180393</guid>
		<description>&quot;Making the notes essentially invisible to the uninterested reader, while still including them for scholars and others interested, is a great compromise.&quot;

A website does this nicely. And these days, it seems  hard to imagine a location where you have access to the source material being cited, but no access to a computer.

As regards substantive notes, the standard conventions of footnotes (small text at the bottom of the page) make it clear to uninterested readers that this is material that can be skipped, while making it easy for interested readers to see them in context.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Making the notes essentially invisible to the uninterested reader, while still including them for scholars and others interested, is a great compromise.&#8221;</p>

	<p>A website does this nicely. And these days, it seems  hard to imagine a location where you have access to the source material being cited, but no access to a computer.</p>

	<p>As regards substantive notes, the standard conventions of footnotes (small text at the bottom of the page) make it clear to uninterested readers that this is material that can be skipped, while making it easy for interested readers to see them in context.</p>
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		<title>By: aa</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/27/the-end-for-endnotes/comment-page-1/#comment-180391</link>
		<dc:creator>aa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 04:21:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/27/the-end-for-endnotes/#comment-180391</guid>
		<description>The rule of thumb is that each footnote reduces the book&#039;s sales by half; hence, endnotes. Can there be any excuse for wandering down every interesting path that presents itself in the body of the text when these &lt;i&gt;mollis aer&lt;/i&gt;137 bits can all be neatly collected in the endnotes for the judicious reader to nibble on at leisure, without being forced to glance wistfully or desperately back, as the case may be, at the nearly forgotten page on which the opening line of the paragraph can be found, while the topic under discussion smalls in the distance (like, for Proust&#039;s young narrator, the water lilies) and one is swept away by a stream of impertinent though noteworthy points of interest, when the simple remedy of the End Note lies so close to hand138? Many and many a time have I prowled the endnote prairie accompanied only by my dry skepticism, looking for a tuft of solid information on which to nourish my growing doubts, and devoured the same with a muttered &quot;Aha!&quot;, in one of the many tones to which that exclamation, even when muttered, lends itself. There&#039;s gold in them thar hills; just don&#039;t break a tooth. 

137. i.e., tender but airy (also, a conventional pseudo-etymology for mulier, cf. Shakespeare, Sonnet 1, l. 4, et passim)

138. No. (Thot not.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The rule of thumb is that each footnote reduces the book&#8217;s sales by half; hence, endnotes. Can there be any excuse for wandering down every interesting path that presents itself in the body of the text when these <i>mollis aer</i>137 bits can all be neatly collected in the endnotes for the judicious reader to nibble on at leisure, without being forced to glance wistfully or desperately back, as the case may be, at the nearly forgotten page on which the opening line of the paragraph can be found, while the topic under discussion smalls in the distance (like, for Proust&#8217;s young narrator, the water lilies) and one is swept away by a stream of impertinent though noteworthy points of interest, when the simple remedy of the End Note lies so close to hand138? Many and many a time have I prowled the endnote prairie accompanied only by my dry skepticism, looking for a tuft of solid information on which to nourish my growing doubts, and devoured the same with a muttered &#8220;Aha!&#8221;, in one of the many tones to which that exclamation, even when muttered, lends itself. There&#8217;s gold in them thar hills; just don&#8217;t break a tooth.</p>

	<p>137. i.e., tender but airy (also, a conventional pseudo-etymology for mulier, cf. Shakespeare, Sonnet 1, l. 4, et passim)</p>

	<p>138. No. (Thot not.)</p>
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		<title>By: tom bach</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/27/the-end-for-endnotes/comment-page-1/#comment-180390</link>
		<dc:creator>tom bach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 04:15:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/27/the-end-for-endnotes/#comment-180390</guid>
		<description>For an invesigation of footnotes both informative and funny as all get out Anthony Grafton &quot;The Footnote from De Thou to Ranke&quot; in _History and Theory_ 33/4 53-76.

&quot;Like the toilet,&quot; Grafton argues, &quot;the footnote enables one to deal with ugly tasks in private; like the toilet it is tucked genteely away - often, in recent years, not even at the bottom of the page but at the end of the book. Out of sight, and even out of mind, seems exactly where so banal a device belongs.&quot;

He concludes:

&quot;In a brilliant passage, Gibbon dissects the five volumes of the Origines Guelficae: &#039;The hands of several workmen are apparent; the bold and original spirt of Leibnitz, the crude erudition and hasty conjectures of Eccard, the useful annotations of Gruber, and the crtical disquisitions of Scheid.&#039; [footnote 54]  One could say much the same - if one could write such sentences - of  the footnote. A palimpsest, it reveal on examination reserach techniques framed in the Renaissance, critical rules first stated during the Scientific Revolution, the irony of Gibbon, and the empathy of Ranke.&quot;

I loves me a footnote and hates me an endnote, for reasons articulated by others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>For an invesigation of footnotes both informative and funny as all get out Anthony Grafton &#8220;The Footnote from De Thou to Ranke&#8221; in <em>History and Theory</em> 33/4 53-76.</p>

	<p>&#8220;Like the toilet,&#8221; Grafton argues, &#8220;the footnote enables one to deal with ugly tasks in private; like the toilet it is tucked genteely away &#8211; often, in recent years, not even at the bottom of the page but at the end of the book. Out of sight, and even out of mind, seems exactly where so banal a device belongs.&#8221;</p>

	<p>He concludes:</p>

	<p>&#8220;In a brilliant passage, Gibbon dissects the five volumes of the Origines Guelficae: &#8216;The hands of several workmen are apparent; the bold and original spirt of Leibnitz, the crude erudition and hasty conjectures of Eccard, the useful annotations of Gruber, and the crtical disquisitions of Scheid.&#8217; [footnote 54]  One could say much the same &#8211; if one could write such sentences &#8211; of  the footnote. A palimpsest, it reveal on examination reserach techniques framed in the Renaissance, critical rules first stated during the Scientific Revolution, the irony of Gibbon, and the empathy of Ranke.&#8221;</p>

	<p>I loves me a footnote and hates me an endnote, for reasons articulated by others.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Weiner</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/27/the-end-for-endnotes/comment-page-1/#comment-180363</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Weiner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Nov 2006 22:59:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/27/the-end-for-endnotes/#comment-180363</guid>
		<description>Stuart, out of curiosity, which book? Kate Atkinson&#039;s &lt;i&gt;Behind the Scenes at the Museum&lt;/i&gt; does something like that but I think it&#039;s deliberate and effective. And the endnotes in Alasdair Gray&#039;s &lt;i&gt;History Maker&lt;/i&gt; contain the second half of the plot; it&#039;s as well to read them straight through after reading the text. 

(There&#039;s an essay on footnotes in fiction that mentions this, which I found somehow the other day by searching CT for references to Gray, but HM itself doesn&#039;t seem to be mentioned on this blog. -- And while we&#039;re mentioning footnotes in fiction, what about &lt;i&gt;The Makepeace Experiment&lt;/i&gt; by Abram Tertz, in which the narrator gets into an argument with the footnotes and -- well, that would be a spoiler!)

Kevin Keith, excellent point re: popular consumption.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Stuart, out of curiosity, which book? Kate Atkinson&#8217;s <i>Behind the Scenes at the Museum</i> does something like that but I think it&#8217;s deliberate and effective. And the endnotes in Alasdair Gray&#8217;s <i>History Maker</i> contain the second half of the plot; it&#8217;s as well to read them straight through after reading the text.</p>

	<p>(There&#8217;s an essay on footnotes in fiction that mentions this, which I found somehow the other day by searching CT for references to Gray, but HM itself doesn&#8217;t seem to be mentioned on this blog.&#8212;And while we&#8217;re mentioning footnotes in fiction, what about <i>The Makepeace Experiment</i> by Abram Tertz, in which the narrator gets into an argument with the footnotes and&#8212;well, that would be a spoiler!)</p>

	<p>Kevin Keith, excellent point re: popular consumption.</p>
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		<title>By: maha</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/27/the-end-for-endnotes/comment-page-1/#comment-180358</link>
		<dc:creator>maha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Nov 2006 21:32:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/27/the-end-for-endnotes/#comment-180358</guid>
		<description>I used to love FOOTnotes and am always aggravated up the wazoo when publishers put substantive comments into ENDnotes instead of FOOTnotes.

Conventional wisdom in publishing is that footnotes scare away readers, but I say that readers who are afraid of FOOTnotes are not about to look something up in an ENDnote, so as a rule of thumb if the author wants something read it had better be in the text (in parentheses, perhaps).

Footnotes were phased out when publishers got away from galley proofs that were pasted up in pages after first proofreading. If you page the book in Quark and make changes that cause text to shift from one page to another, it messes up the footnotes. A book with a lot of notes may have to be repaged after every proofreading. Hence, endnotes. 

I don&#039;t mind endnotes that are citing sources of information. (You want authors to not cite sources of information?) But I agree that comments should either be in the text or in FOOTnotes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I used to love <span class="caps">FOO</span>Tnotes and am always aggravated up the wazoo when publishers put substantive comments into ENDnotes instead of <span class="caps">FOO</span>Tnotes.</p>

	<p>Conventional wisdom in publishing is that footnotes scare away readers, but I say that readers who are afraid of <span class="caps">FOO</span>Tnotes are not about to look something up in an ENDnote, so as a rule of thumb if the author wants something read it had better be in the text (in parentheses, perhaps).</p>

	<p>Footnotes were phased out when publishers got away from galley proofs that were pasted up in pages after first proofreading. If you page the book in Quark and make changes that cause text to shift from one page to another, it messes up the footnotes. A book with a lot of notes may have to be repaged after every proofreading. Hence, endnotes.</p>

	<p>I don&#8217;t mind endnotes that are citing sources of information. (You want authors to not cite sources of information?) But I agree that comments should either be in the text or in <span class="caps">FOO</span>Tnotes.</p>
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		<title>By: Ralph Hitchens</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/27/the-end-for-endnotes/comment-page-1/#comment-180352</link>
		<dc:creator>Ralph Hitchens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Nov 2006 20:41:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/27/the-end-for-endnotes/#comment-180352</guid>
		<description>Right on re. endnotes.  I just finished Tom Holland&#039;s _Persian Fire_, a fine popular history of the 5th century BCE war, with lots of interesting source comment relegated to the endnotes, forcing me to flip back &amp; forth &amp; use two bookmarks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Right on re. endnotes.  I just finished Tom Holland&#8217;s <em>Persian Fire</em>, a fine popular history of the 5th century <span class="caps">BCE</span> war, with lots of interesting source comment relegated to the endnotes, forcing me to flip back &#038; forth &#038; use two bookmarks.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel Turnipseed</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/27/the-end-for-endnotes/comment-page-1/#comment-180347</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel Turnipseed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Nov 2006 19:57:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/27/the-end-for-endnotes/#comment-180347</guid>
		<description>I second abb1&#039;s view: with books that contain them (including DFW&#039;s doorstopper), I almost always read two things first: the endnotes and the bibliography. If they captivate, then I&#039;ll read the book. 

A readerly argument &lt;em&gt;for&lt;/em&gt; footnotes (suggested by Parfit&#039;s remark on R&amp;P) is that most books really worth reading aren&#039;t really &quot;read&quot; until you&#039;ve gone through multiple passes (a shorter version of this phenomenon is--quite movingly--found in Andre Dubus&#039; essay, &#039;A Hemingway Story&#039;). As such, I like to first orient myself to the author&#039;s overall mental world by checking out endnotes/bibliography, then do a quick read that ignores footnotes/endnotes to get a sense of where the author is going within that world, and only on a kind of third reading do I get to the author&#039;s equivocations/elaborations in the endnotes. I prefer endnotes over footnotes for precisely the reason that it&#039;s easier to avoid getting tripped up early over some point whose charitable interpretation/role in overall argument may not yet be available to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I second abb1&#8217;s view: with books that contain them (including <span class="caps">DFW</span>&#8217;s doorstopper), I almost always read two things first: the endnotes and the bibliography. If they captivate, then I&#8217;ll read the book.</p>

	<p>A readerly argument <em>for</em> footnotes (suggested by Parfit&#8217;s remark on R&#038;P) is that most books really worth reading aren&#8217;t really &#8220;read&#8221; until you&#8217;ve gone through multiple passes (a shorter version of this phenomenon is&#8212;quite movingly&#8212;found in Andre Dubus&#8217; essay, &#8216;A Hemingway Story&#8217;). As such, I like to first orient myself to the author&#8217;s overall mental world by checking out endnotes/bibliography, then do a quick read that ignores footnotes/endnotes to get a sense of where the author is going within that world, and only on a kind of third reading do I get to the author&#8217;s equivocations/elaborations in the endnotes. I prefer endnotes over footnotes for precisely the reason that it&#8217;s easier to avoid getting tripped up early over some point whose charitable interpretation/role in overall argument may not yet be available to me.</p>
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		<title>By: stuart</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/27/the-end-for-endnotes/comment-page-1/#comment-180346</link>
		<dc:creator>stuart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Nov 2006 19:51:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/11/27/the-end-for-endnotes/#comment-180346</guid>
		<description>I would agree with one of the points above, anything substantive (longer than a paragraph, as a guide) might make sense as an end note, anything short should be a footnote if it is going to be included. I have been trying to read a book (fiction) of which half of the details of the story that links everything together is included in the equivalent of end notes, and there is often several per page, which means to read the book completely you have to keep flipping back and forth. Very annoying as you can imagine, despite the story being okay it has stopped me reading it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I would agree with one of the points above, anything substantive (longer than a paragraph, as a guide) might make sense as an end note, anything short should be a footnote if it is going to be included. I have been trying to read a book (fiction) of which half of the details of the story that links everything together is included in the equivalent of end notes, and there is often several per page, which means to read the book completely you have to keep flipping back and forth. Very annoying as you can imagine, despite the story being okay it has stopped me reading it.</p>
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