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	<title>Comments on: Liberty Cabbage and Pinochle</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/07/liberty-cabbage-and-pinochle/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: SamChevre</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/07/liberty-cabbage-and-pinochle/comment-page-1/#comment-181672</link>
		<dc:creator>SamChevre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Dec 2006 21:10:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;Over the water&quot;, mds, &quot;over the water&quot;.  It&#039;s much more ambiguous that way, and ambiguous is important.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Over the water&#8221;, mds, &#8220;over the water&#8221;.  It&#8217;s much more ambiguous that way, and ambiguous is important.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim S.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/07/liberty-cabbage-and-pinochle/comment-page-1/#comment-181668</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Dec 2006 20:45:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>A, sorry to rain on some people&#039;s parade:
The proposal to declare war upon Germany was made by President Wilson on April 2.  The actual declaration of war was made on April 6.
By an overwhelming majority of both houses.  The &quot;considerable opposition&quot; does not really hold up, particularly to anyone who remembers the Anti-Vietnam war movement.  
This is not to support any &quot;Liberty Cabbage&quot; nonsense, but one can support the war (vide Fritz Fischer) without going into hysterics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>A, sorry to rain on some people&#8217;s parade:<br />
The proposal to declare war upon Germany was made by President Wilson on April 2.  The actual declaration of war was made on April 6.<br />
By an overwhelming majority of both houses.  The &#8220;considerable opposition&#8221; does not really hold up, particularly to anyone who remembers the Anti-Vietnam war movement.<br />
This is not to support any &#8220;Liberty Cabbage&#8221; nonsense, but one can support the war (vide Fritz Fischer) without going into hysterics.</p>
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		<title>By: mds</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/07/liberty-cabbage-and-pinochle/comment-page-1/#comment-181659</link>
		<dc:creator>mds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Dec 2006 19:52:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/07/liberty-cabbage-and-pinochle/#comment-181659</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;And on the other side of the Atlantic we had Windsor (Saxe-Coburg and Gotha) and Mountbatten (Battenberg).&lt;/i&gt;

That&#039;s why I refer to the Prince of Wales as Charles Battenberg-Saxe-Coburg und Gotha.  When I&#039;m not calling his entire family &lt;i&gt;usurpers&lt;/i&gt;.  Franz Herzog von Bayern is the rightful King of England and Scotland.  Join me in raising a glass to the King across the water.  All right, I&#039;m in North America, so they&#039;re &lt;i&gt;both&lt;/i&gt; across the water.  My point, whatever it is, remains.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>And on the other side of the Atlantic we had Windsor (Saxe-Coburg and Gotha) and Mountbatten (Battenberg).</i></p>

	<p>That&#8217;s why I refer to the Prince of Wales as Charles Battenberg-Saxe-Coburg und Gotha.  When I&#8217;m not calling his entire family <i>usurpers</i>.  Franz Herzog von Bayern is the rightful King of England and Scotland.  Join me in raising a glass to the King across the water.  All right, I&#8217;m in North America, so they&#8217;re <i>both</i> across the water.  My point, whatever it is, remains.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Houghton</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/07/liberty-cabbage-and-pinochle/comment-page-1/#comment-181609</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Houghton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Dec 2006 05:59:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/07/liberty-cabbage-and-pinochle/#comment-181609</guid>
		<description>Jack of Diamonds, Queen of Spades, Orangemen ban Germans.

The next trilogy from &lt;a href=&quot;http://whiskeyfire.typepad.com/whiskey_fire/2006/12/to_fathom_hell.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Brother Orson&lt;/a&gt; (blindref &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/Priest-Romance-Thomas-M-Disch/dp/0679418806/sr=1-5/qid=1165557358/ref=sr_1_5/102-5752295-9516966?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;),  detailing the heroism inherent in conducting War on the Home Front as if it were a video game with carricatures, instead of a life- and economy-destroying event.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Jack of Diamonds, Queen of Spades, Orangemen ban Germans.</p>

	<p>The next trilogy from <a href="http://whiskeyfire.typepad.com/whiskey_fire/2006/12/to_fathom_hell.html" rel="nofollow">Brother Orson</a> (blindref <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Priest-Romance-Thomas-M-Disch/dp/0679418806/sr=1-5/qid=1165557358/ref=sr_1_5/102-5752295-9516966?ie=UTF8&#038;s=books" rel="nofollow">here</a>),  detailing the heroism inherent in conducting War on the Home Front as if it were a video game with carricatures, instead of a life- and economy-destroying event.</p>
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		<title>By: CJColucci</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/07/liberty-cabbage-and-pinochle/comment-page-1/#comment-181580</link>
		<dc:creator>CJColucci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Dec 2006 21:39:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It might have something to do with eating too much German food.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It might have something to do with eating too much German food.</p>
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		<title>By: Consumatopia</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/07/liberty-cabbage-and-pinochle/comment-page-1/#comment-181565</link>
		<dc:creator>Consumatopia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Dec 2006 20:09:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/07/liberty-cabbage-and-pinochle/#comment-181565</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;cological devastation&lt;/i&gt;

I don&#039;t know what that is but it scares the shit out of me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>cological devastation</i></p>

	<p>I don&#8217;t know what that is but it scares the shit out of me.</p>
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		<title>By: Maynard Handley</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/07/liberty-cabbage-and-pinochle/comment-page-1/#comment-181559</link>
		<dc:creator>Maynard Handley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Dec 2006 19:07:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/07/liberty-cabbage-and-pinochle/#comment-181559</guid>
		<description>(1) WW1 was followed by the 1920s, perhaps the most racist decade in US history. That&#039;s encouraging.

(2) It&#039;s one thing to maintain a constant level of stupidity while other things remain constant. It&#039;s something else to do so while other things (nuclear weapons, growing population and cological devastation, global warming etc) get worse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>(1) <span class="caps">WW1</span> was followed by the 1920s, perhaps the most racist decade in US history. That&#8217;s encouraging.</p>

	<p>(2) It&#8217;s one thing to maintain a constant level of stupidity while other things remain constant. It&#8217;s something else to do so while other things (nuclear weapons, growing population and cological devastation, global warming etc) get worse.</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/07/liberty-cabbage-and-pinochle/comment-page-1/#comment-181551</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Dec 2006 18:21:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/07/liberty-cabbage-and-pinochle/#comment-181551</guid>
		<description>The Dutch apparently had a Tweedledum-Tweedledee civil war between the Union of Utrecht and the Union of Atrecht. It sounds like a dialect cline.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The Dutch apparently had a Tweedledum-Tweedledee civil war between the Union of Utrecht and the Union of Atrecht. It sounds like a dialect cline.</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/07/liberty-cabbage-and-pinochle/comment-page-1/#comment-181550</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Dec 2006 18:19:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/07/liberty-cabbage-and-pinochle/#comment-181550</guid>
		<description>&quot;Would now be about 80&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Would now be about 80&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/07/liberty-cabbage-and-pinochle/comment-page-1/#comment-181549</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Dec 2006 18:16:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/07/liberty-cabbage-and-pinochle/#comment-181549</guid>
		<description>I was told by a woman who would now be about 60 that in Portland OR during WWII there was a 9:00 curfew for Italian-Americans. Portland was the whitest, most nativist city on the West Coast.

And my #19 should be qualified by a comment which may not have posted yet. Minnesota was actually very tense during WWI, with a police-state-like Committee of Public Safety.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I was told by a woman who would now be about 60 that in Portland OR during <span class="caps">WWII</span> there was a 9:00 curfew for Italian-Americans. Portland was the whitest, most nativist city on the West Coast.</p>

	<p>And my #19 should be qualified by a comment which may not have posted yet. Minnesota was actually very tense during <span class="caps">WWI</span>, with a police-state-like Committee of Public Safety.</p>
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		<title>By: Russell Arben Fox</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/07/liberty-cabbage-and-pinochle/comment-page-1/#comment-181546</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell Arben Fox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Dec 2006 18:04:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/07/liberty-cabbage-and-pinochle/#comment-181546</guid>
		<description>John,

&quot;Some areas of Minnesota and Wisconsin are close to 100% German. I doubt that those Germans had problems.&quot;

The patterns of relocation of Japanese-Americans throws some interesting light on where demographic realities and racial/economic hostilities crossed. Japanese-Americans were shipped to internment centers out of designated military areas, including practically all the West coast...but not Hawaii, the place you&#039;d assume a demand for internment and depopulation would be strongest. Why not? In part because Japanese-Americans made up such a large portion of the islands&#039; population that to relocate them all might have crashed the local economy entirely. I suspect similar reasoning was at play in not harassing too much German-Americans who lived in communities as compact and homogenous as those in some parts of the upper Midwest.

Matt,

&quot;I do believe that the interned Germans (and Italians) were given individual hearings about loyalty and almost all were released in a fairly short period of time unlike the Japanese. At least this is what I recall reading on Eric Muller’s site.&quot;

Many were, but perhaps just as many weren&#039;t. Complete data is extremely hard to come by and unreliable, because so many different agencies were involved in targeting, interviewing, detaining and interning suspected German and Italian-Americans on an ad hoc basis; there was no standard set of procedures. For example, in the case of Mathias Borniger--the Wichita, KS, resident whose story I told on my blog--you had a Boeing employee who someone thought might be sneaking photos of planes off to Hitler, who was picked up immediately after Pearl Harbor, interrogated, shipped off to a military camp for four months, then to an itnernment camp where he was held for nearly two years, being released in the fall of 1943. His case does not appear to have been atypical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>John,</p>

	<p>&#8220;Some areas of Minnesota and Wisconsin are close to 100% German. I doubt that those Germans had problems.&#8221;</p>

	<p>The patterns of relocation of Japanese-Americans throws some interesting light on where demographic realities and racial/economic hostilities crossed. Japanese-Americans were shipped to internment centers out of designated military areas, including practically all the West coast&#8230;but not Hawaii, the place you&#8217;d assume a demand for internment and depopulation would be strongest. Why not? In part because Japanese-Americans made up such a large portion of the islands&#8217; population that to relocate them all might have crashed the local economy entirely. I suspect similar reasoning was at play in not harassing too much German-Americans who lived in communities as compact and homogenous as those in some parts of the upper Midwest.</p>

	<p>Matt,</p>

	<p>&#8220;I do believe that the interned Germans (and Italians) were given individual hearings about loyalty and almost all were released in a fairly short period of time unlike the Japanese. At least this is what I recall reading on Eric Muller&#8217;s site.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Many were, but perhaps just as many weren&#8217;t. Complete data is extremely hard to come by and unreliable, because so many different agencies were involved in targeting, interviewing, detaining and interning suspected German and Italian-Americans on an ad hoc basis; there was no standard set of procedures. For example, in the case of Mathias Borniger&#8212;the Wichita, KS, resident whose story I told on my blog&#8212;you had a Boeing employee who someone thought might be sneaking photos of planes off to Hitler, who was picked up immediately after Pearl Harbor, interrogated, shipped off to a military camp for four months, then to an itnernment camp where he was held for nearly two years, being released in the fall of 1943. His case does not appear to have been atypical.</p>
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		<title>By: The New York City Math Teacher</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/07/liberty-cabbage-and-pinochle/comment-page-1/#comment-181542</link>
		<dc:creator>The New York City Math Teacher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Dec 2006 17:51:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/07/liberty-cabbage-and-pinochle/#comment-181542</guid>
		<description>In what conflicts prior to WWI did does one encounter this kind of ad-hoc ethno-national linguistic paranoia?

Off the top of my head, Balkan wars? I don&#039;t remember reading anything about French speakers getting lynched in Frankfurt in 1814, nor in Metz in 1870.

1848 Hungarian uprising?  1877-8 anti-Circassian, Greek, Romanian, Bulgar, or anti-Turkish popular activism, a la the USA in 1914?

I&#039;m having trouble remembering any. I am also having trouble recalling incidents of greater violence occurring in Great Britain or France than in the US.

The US had it worse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>In what conflicts prior to <span class="caps">WWI</span> did does one encounter this kind of ad-hoc ethno-national linguistic paranoia?</p>

	<p>Off the top of my head, Balkan wars? I don&#8217;t remember reading anything about French speakers getting lynched in Frankfurt in 1814, nor in Metz in 1870.</p>

	<p>1848 Hungarian uprising?  1877-8 anti-Circassian, Greek, Romanian, Bulgar, or anti-Turkish popular activism, a la the <span class="caps">USA</span> in 1914?</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m having trouble remembering any. I am also having trouble recalling incidents of greater violence occurring in Great Britain or France than in the US.</p>

	<p>The US had it worse.</p>
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		<title>By: Aidan Kehoe</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/07/liberty-cabbage-and-pinochle/comment-page-1/#comment-181540</link>
		<dc:creator>Aidan Kehoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Dec 2006 17:43:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/07/liberty-cabbage-and-pinochle/#comment-181540</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;A quick Google seems to show that English is the only language in which Hollanders/ Netherlanders are called “Dutch” (~ “Deutsch”).&lt;/i&gt;

Uhh, except for Dutch, where &lt;i&gt;Diets&lt;/i&gt; is not quite extinct, though the actions of &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietsland&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;those who promote its use&lt;/a&gt; are sending it in that direction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>A quick Google seems to show that English is the only language in which Hollanders/ Netherlanders are called &#8220;Dutch&#8221; (~ &#8220;Deutsch&#8221;).</i></p>

	<p>Uhh, except for Dutch, where <i>Diets</i> is not quite extinct, though the actions of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietsland" rel="nofollow">those who promote its use</a> are sending it in that direction.</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/07/liberty-cabbage-and-pinochle/comment-page-1/#comment-181538</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Dec 2006 17:28:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/07/liberty-cabbage-and-pinochle/#comment-181538</guid>
		<description>Someone just reported that in WWI Minnesota (70% foreign-born) the state government established a &lt;a href=&quot;http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2005/07/04_olsond_safety/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; Committee of Public Safety&lt;/a&gt; with police state powers. Fear of immigrants was combined with fear of labor unrest. Herman the German&#039;s New Ulm was tragetted by the CPS -- some German-Americans were asking for non-combat assignments.

By 1932 the targets of the CPS were running the state, with a near-Socialist platform (the Farmer-Labor Party).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Someone just reported that in <span class="caps">WWI </span>Minnesota (70% foreign-born) the state government established a <a href="http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2005/07/04_olsond_safety/" rel="nofollow"> Committee of Public Safety</a> with police state powers. Fear of immigrants was combined with fear of labor unrest. Herman the German&#8217;s New Ulm was tragetted by the <span class="caps">CPS </span>&#8212;some German-Americans were asking for non-combat assignments.</p>

	<p>By 1932 the targets of the <span class="caps">CPS</span> were running the state, with a near-Socialist platform (the Farmer-Labor Party).</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/07/liberty-cabbage-and-pinochle/comment-page-1/#comment-181531</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Dec 2006 16:59:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/07/liberty-cabbage-and-pinochle/#comment-181531</guid>
		<description>Russell- I&#039;m not 100% sure, but I do believe that the interned Germans (and Italians) were given individual hearings about loyalty and almost all were released in a fairly short period of time unlike the Japanese.  At least this is what I recall reading on Eric Muller&#039;s site.  Quite likely many were treated unfairly and unjustly, but less so than the Japanese (I don&#039;t read you as saying otherwise.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Russell- I&#8217;m not 100% sure, but I do believe that the interned Germans (and Italians) were given individual hearings about loyalty and almost all were released in a fairly short period of time unlike the Japanese.  At least this is what I recall reading on Eric Muller&#8217;s site.  Quite likely many were treated unfairly and unjustly, but less so than the Japanese (I don&#8217;t read you as saying otherwise.)</p>
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