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	<title>Comments on: Business opportunity for warming denialists</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/18/business-opportunity-for-warming-denialists/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Michael E. Sullivan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/18/business-opportunity-for-warming-denialists/comment-page-1/#comment-182469</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael E. Sullivan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Dec 2006 13:39:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/18/business-opportunity-for-warming-denialists/#comment-182469</guid>
		<description>Note: different Michael Sullivan here (I think I comment more often than the other guy).  I&#039;ll see if I can remember to put my middle initial into comments here to differentiate.    

I don&#039;t think my namesake is correct about alternative investments for non-skeptics for the reasons ajay and jq make clear.   

But he&#039;s still correct (IMO) about the lack of skeptic&#039;s investments saying very little about the real belief in their claims.

Effects that far into the future have little relevance financially, given that we can make normal investments with expected returns in the 4-12% range.  The future more than 30 years away is discounted to almost nothing.  So warming would have to stall enough within the next 30 (really 10-20) years to convince alarmists for skeptic based investment made today to profit.  How likely is that?

Also, the more reasonable skeptics are not particularly skeptical about warming per se, only about the most alarming predictions thereof, and damages therefrom, and about the value of pursuing proposed remedies in the present.  These folks don&#039;t really have much investment opportunity, since the most alarming predictions are not likely to be priced into the market.  

The real money to be made if the (non-insane) skeptics are right is in the technologies which will make future cuts or remediation much cheaper than implementing Stern&#039;s recommendations today.  But those are either nonexistent or in their infancy today, and are thus both very risky and extremely difficult to bet on profitably without a great deal of domain knowledge.  

Simple swaths of bets on the whole possible domain for climate tech at this point are likely to include organizations who are working the in wrong (according to skeptics) direction, and mostly those who will prove irrelevant to the issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Note: different Michael Sullivan here (I think I comment more often than the other guy).  I&#8217;ll see if I can remember to put my middle initial into comments here to differentiate.</p>

	<p>I don&#8217;t think my namesake is correct about alternative investments for non-skeptics for the reasons ajay and jq make clear.</p>

	<p>But he&#8217;s still correct (IMO) about the lack of skeptic&#8217;s investments saying very little about the real belief in their claims.</p>

	<p>Effects that far into the future have little relevance financially, given that we can make normal investments with expected returns in the 4-12% range.  The future more than 30 years away is discounted to almost nothing.  So warming would have to stall enough within the next 30 (really 10-20) years to convince alarmists for skeptic based investment made today to profit.  How likely is that?</p>

	<p>Also, the more reasonable skeptics are not particularly skeptical about warming per se, only about the most alarming predictions thereof, and damages therefrom, and about the value of pursuing proposed remedies in the present.  These folks don&#8217;t really have much investment opportunity, since the most alarming predictions are not likely to be priced into the market.</p>

	<p>The real money to be made if the (non-insane) skeptics are right is in the technologies which will make future cuts or remediation much cheaper than implementing Stern&#8217;s recommendations today.  But those are either nonexistent or in their infancy today, and are thus both very risky and extremely difficult to bet on profitably without a great deal of domain knowledge.</p>

	<p>Simple swaths of bets on the whole possible domain for climate tech at this point are likely to include organizations who are working the in wrong (according to skeptics) direction, and mostly those who will prove irrelevant to the issue.</p>
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		<title>By: JH</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/18/business-opportunity-for-warming-denialists/comment-page-1/#comment-182418</link>
		<dc:creator>JH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Dec 2006 12:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/18/business-opportunity-for-warming-denialists/#comment-182418</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure this is really eveidence of global warming.  Ski resorts in the European Alps </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m not sure this is really eveidence of global warming.  Ski resorts in the European Alps</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Ahlf</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/18/business-opportunity-for-warming-denialists/comment-page-1/#comment-182380</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Ahlf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Dec 2006 00:00:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/18/business-opportunity-for-warming-denialists/#comment-182380</guid>
		<description>Come now Ostriches, investments are going to be on the bottom of your list if the expected conditions emerge.
Entropy will be much more fascinating, and pertinent to your survival, along with hunter gathering skills--
Of course, we could have a &quot;soft landing&quot; and everyone will apply
reason, wisdom and intelligence to the situation, as Goldilocks gets the transition &quot;Just right&quot;--
What are the odds? Want to bet on that many feedback loops?
Scott</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Come now Ostriches, investments are going to be on the bottom of your list if the expected conditions emerge.<br />
Entropy will be much more fascinating, and pertinent to your survival, along with hunter gathering skills&#8212;Of course, we could have a &#8220;soft landing&#8221; and everyone will apply<br />
reason, wisdom and intelligence to the situation, as Goldilocks gets the transition &#8220;Just right&#8221;&#8212;What are the odds? Want to bet on that many feedback loops?<br />
Scott</p>
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		<title>By: Grand Moff Texan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/18/business-opportunity-for-warming-denialists/comment-page-1/#comment-182372</link>
		<dc:creator>Grand Moff Texan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Dec 2006 22:17:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/18/business-opportunity-for-warming-denialists/#comment-182372</guid>
		<description>Chris Bertram will also be interested in &lt;a href=&quot;http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/node/2717&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt;. 
.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Chris Bertram will also be interested in <a href="http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/node/2717" rel="nofollow">this</a>.<br />
.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Sullivan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/18/business-opportunity-for-warming-denialists/comment-page-1/#comment-182358</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Sullivan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Dec 2006 17:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/18/business-opportunity-for-warming-denialists/#comment-182358</guid>
		<description>ajay:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Not necessarily. Given that a belief in global warming is the conventional wisdom, it’s likely that the market will already have priced its effects in.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Good point, though I think that there is always going to be a strong holdout segment that will play to the status quo, regardless of the popularity of theories of change.  (The buggy-whip manufacturors, as it were).

So I guess the real money&#039;s in believing in change that&#039;s either more or less severe than the conventional wisdom, preferably more (and being right).  That way, you&#039;re going for investments that are undervalued by both the holdouts and the mainstream.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>ajay:</p>

	<p><blockquote>Not necessarily. Given that a belief in global warming is the conventional wisdom, it&#8217;s likely that the market will already have priced its effects in.</blockquote></p>

	<p>Good point, though I think that there is always going to be a strong holdout segment that will play to the status quo, regardless of the popularity of theories of change.  (The buggy-whip manufacturors, as it were).</p>

	<p>So I guess the real money&#8217;s in believing in change that&#8217;s either more or less severe than the conventional wisdom, preferably more (and being right).  That way, you&#8217;re going for investments that are undervalued by both the holdouts and the mainstream.</p>
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		<title>By: Grand Moff Texan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/18/business-opportunity-for-warming-denialists/comment-page-1/#comment-182350</link>
		<dc:creator>Grand Moff Texan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Dec 2006 16:57:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/18/business-opportunity-for-warming-denialists/#comment-182350</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;there’s probably a correlation between skepticism about global warming and skepticism about European entrepreneurialism.&lt;/i&gt; 

Yes, and in Texas we refer to that happy affinity as &quot;the trailer park.&quot;  

Also, can I just note the delicious &quot;irony&quot; (as in &quot;not really irony&quot;) of a poster named &quot;Thales&quot; commenting on flood-plain planning?  

I can&#039;t?  OK, I won&#039;t. 
.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>there&#8217;s probably a correlation between skepticism about global warming and skepticism about European entrepreneurialism.</i></p>

	<p>Yes, and in Texas we refer to that happy affinity as &#8220;the trailer park.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Also, can I just note the delicious &#8220;irony&#8221; (as in &#8220;not really irony&#8221;) of a poster named &#8220;Thales&#8221; commenting on flood-plain planning?</p>

	<p>I can&#8217;t?  OK, I won&#8217;t.<br />
.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/18/business-opportunity-for-warming-denialists/comment-page-1/#comment-182330</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Dec 2006 14:15:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/18/business-opportunity-for-warming-denialists/#comment-182330</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;But, hey, wouldn’t that be a business opportunity for Kyoto optimists (who believe climate change will be successfully addressed by international agreements, thus sparing low-altitude ski resorts)?&lt;/em&gt;

No. As reducing CO2 emissions has a lag, you&#039;d still be fucked - the market, after all, can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>But, hey, wouldn&#8217;t that be a business opportunity for Kyoto optimists (who believe climate change will be successfully addressed by international agreements, thus sparing low-altitude ski resorts)?</em></p>

	<p>No. As reducing <span class="caps">CO2</span> emissions has a lag, you&#8217;d still be fucked &#8211; the market, after all, can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent.</p>
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		<title>By: Slocum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/18/business-opportunity-for-warming-denialists/comment-page-1/#comment-182328</link>
		<dc:creator>Slocum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Dec 2006 13:04:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/18/business-opportunity-for-warming-denialists/#comment-182328</guid>
		<description>But, hey, wouldn&#039;t that be a business opportunity for Kyoto optimists (who believe climate change will be successfully addressed by international agreements, thus sparing low-altitude ski resorts)?  

Personally, I think warming is happening, but the effects will be much less severe than the nightmare scenarios.  I further think that the chances of international treaties reducing carbon emissions globally and much more strictly than Kyoto are unlikely given the state of international and national politics.  Kyoto signatories are largely missing their targets, and the EU countries are handing out carbon credits like they&#039;re printing money thereby subsidizing their domestic industries:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/11/27/business/emit.php

The latest prediction is for huge windfall profits for European airlines:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6189025.stm  

Does anybody really expect France, for example, to stop looking for ways to turn carbon policy to the advantage of its domestic economy and &#039;national champions&#039;?  

I have more hope for technical changes, simply because they require no global political cooperation.  Low cost, high efficiency solar power or new thorium reactor technology can spread across the globe and be adopted broadly without any politics.

But I don&#039;t know how make a financial bet on all of the above -- so I think I&#039;ll stick with index funds for my 401K.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>But, hey, wouldn&#8217;t that be a business opportunity for Kyoto optimists (who believe climate change will be successfully addressed by international agreements, thus sparing low-altitude ski resorts)?</p>

	<p>Personally, I think warming is happening, but the effects will be much less severe than the nightmare scenarios.  I further think that the chances of international treaties reducing carbon emissions globally and much more strictly than Kyoto are unlikely given the state of international and national politics.  Kyoto signatories are largely missing their targets, and the EU countries are handing out carbon credits like they&#8217;re printing money thereby subsidizing their domestic industries:</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/11/27/business/emit.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/11/27/business/emit.php</a></p>

	<p>The latest prediction is for huge windfall profits for European airlines:</p>

	<p><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6189025.stm" rel="nofollow">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6189025.stm</a></p>

	<p>Does anybody really expect France, for example, to stop looking for ways to turn carbon policy to the advantage of its domestic economy and &#8216;national champions&#8217;?</p>

	<p>I have more hope for technical changes, simply because they require no global political cooperation.  Low cost, high efficiency solar power or new thorium reactor technology can spread across the globe and be adopted broadly without any politics.</p>

	<p>But I don&#8217;t know how make a financial bet on all of the above&#8212;so I think I&#8217;ll stick with index funds for my 401K.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/18/business-opportunity-for-warming-denialists/comment-page-1/#comment-182326</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Dec 2006 12:37:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/18/business-opportunity-for-warming-denialists/#comment-182326</guid>
		<description>I was just about to post on the same lines as ajay. The report indicates the market has priced in global warming, and, assuming market efficiency, this applies just as much to British vineyards as to Swiss ski slopes (if not, there&#039;s an arbitrage opportunity for anyone clever enough to cut the necessary deals, regardless of which way global warmign turns out).

So the only profit option here is for the skeptics, as Chris says.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I was just about to post on the same lines as ajay. The report indicates the market has priced in global warming, and, assuming market efficiency, this applies just as much to British vineyards as to Swiss ski slopes (if not, there&#8217;s an arbitrage opportunity for anyone clever enough to cut the necessary deals, regardless of which way global warmign turns out).</p>

	<p>So the only profit option here is for the skeptics, as Chris says.</p>
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		<title>By: ajay</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/18/business-opportunity-for-warming-denialists/comment-page-1/#comment-182323</link>
		<dc:creator>ajay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Dec 2006 11:53:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/18/business-opportunity-for-warming-denialists/#comment-182323</guid>
		<description>sullivan: &lt;i&gt;Actually, thinking about it, there’s way more investment opportunity for the global warming believers than the denialists, because it’s the believers who are predicting a massive change in the status quo.&lt;/i&gt;

Not necessarily. Given that a belief in global warming is the conventional wisdom, it&#039;s likely that the market will already have priced its effects in. 

Similarly, I won&#039;t be able to make millions by shorting natural gas for summer 07, on the belief that demand will drop because of the warmer weather. Even though I am a firm believer in this massive impending change in regional temperatures, I can&#039;t profit from my belief, because it&#039;s shared by everyone else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>sullivan: <i>Actually, thinking about it, there&#8217;s way more investment opportunity for the global warming believers than the denialists, because it&#8217;s the believers who are predicting a massive change in the status quo.</i></p>

	<p>Not necessarily. Given that a belief in global warming is the conventional wisdom, it&#8217;s likely that the market will already have priced its effects in.</p>

	<p>Similarly, I won&#8217;t be able to make millions by shorting natural gas for summer 07, on the belief that demand will drop because of the warmer weather. Even though I am a firm believer in this massive impending change in regional temperatures, I can&#8217;t profit from my belief, because it&#8217;s shared by everyone else.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/18/business-opportunity-for-warming-denialists/comment-page-1/#comment-182322</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Dec 2006 11:51:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/18/business-opportunity-for-warming-denialists/#comment-182322</guid>
		<description>As it seems to be rough consensus that the weather in Europe will get more variable around a warming trend, even the good ski winters like last year won&#039;t help much. Think about it: after a crappy winter like this one, the tourists won&#039;t come next year, and even if it does snow you&#039;re out of pocket - and if they decide that it snowed last winter, and they&#039;ll come for their next holiday, regression to the mean suggests they&#039;ll be disappointed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>As it seems to be rough consensus that the weather in Europe will get more variable around a warming trend, even the good ski winters like last year won&#8217;t help much. Think about it: after a crappy winter like this one, the tourists won&#8217;t come next year, and even if it does snow you&#8217;re out of pocket &#8211; and if they decide that it snowed last winter, and they&#8217;ll come for their next holiday, regression to the mean suggests they&#8217;ll be disappointed.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/18/business-opportunity-for-warming-denialists/comment-page-1/#comment-182320</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Dec 2006 11:22:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/18/business-opportunity-for-warming-denialists/#comment-182320</guid>
		<description>presuming that Chris is still a member of the Universities Superannuation Scheme, he has aquite a substantial allocation to a variety of investments which have been made on the basis of protecting the fund against the risk of climate change (the USS was even a founder member of the Enhanced Analytics Initiative aimed at helping to identify such investments).  So where&#039;s yer money noo, Sullivan?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>presuming that Chris is still a member of the Universities Superannuation Scheme, he has aquite a substantial allocation to a variety of investments which have been made on the basis of protecting the fund against the risk of climate change (the <span class="caps">USS</span> was even a founder member of the Enhanced Analytics Initiative aimed at helping to identify such investments).  So where&#8217;s yer money noo, Sullivan?</p>
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		<title>By: Ginger Yellow</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/18/business-opportunity-for-warming-denialists/comment-page-1/#comment-182319</link>
		<dc:creator>Ginger Yellow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Dec 2006 10:22:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/18/business-opportunity-for-warming-denialists/#comment-182319</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Cute post, but there’s probably a correlation between skepticism about global warming and skepticism about European entrepreneurialism.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I would have gotten away with it if it hadn&#039;t been for those communist ski resort owners?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote>Cute post, but there&#8217;s probably a correlation between skepticism about global warming and skepticism about European entrepreneurialism.</blockquote></p>

	<p>I would have gotten away with it if it hadn&#8217;t been for those communist ski resort owners?</p>
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		<title>By: Down and Out in Sài Gòn</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/18/business-opportunity-for-warming-denialists/comment-page-1/#comment-182308</link>
		<dc:creator>Down and Out in Sài Gòn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Dec 2006 03:10:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/18/business-opportunity-for-warming-denialists/#comment-182308</guid>
		<description>Michael Sullivan: actually, I suspect the real market would be for potentially productive agricultural land. It&#039;s pretty cheap and there&#039;s so much of it.

The BBC have a &lt;a href=&quot;http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6200114.stm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;graphic&lt;/a&gt; showing the North American wheat belt in 2050. Hint: most of it will now be in Canada.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Michael Sullivan: actually, I suspect the real market would be for potentially productive agricultural land. It&#8217;s pretty cheap and there&#8217;s so much of it.</p>

	<p>The <span class="caps">BBC</span> have a <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6200114.stm" rel="nofollow">graphic</a> showing the North American wheat belt in 2050. Hint: most of it will now be in Canada.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom T.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/18/business-opportunity-for-warming-denialists/comment-page-1/#comment-182304</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom T.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Dec 2006 01:09:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/18/business-opportunity-for-warming-denialists/#comment-182304</guid>
		<description>Cute post, but there&#039;s probably a correlation between skepticism about global warming and skepticism about European entrepreneurialism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Cute post, but there&#8217;s probably a correlation between skepticism about global warming and skepticism about European entrepreneurialism.</p>
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