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	<title>Comments on: The empirical basis of the Green Lantern theory</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Rich</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-182719</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Dec 2006 07:25:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory/#comment-182719</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure &quot;will&quot; is the issue, at least in terms of the troops on the ground.

The great advantage of insurgent forces is that they are able to choose the time and place at which they engage their enemy. This has the effect of neutralising superior force (it also makes it very hard for the insurgents to achieve absolute victory, as once they start controlling territory they lose some of that advantage).

For a military power to destroy an insurgency it typically needs to use overwhelming force *plus* the acceptance of unconscionable acts against the enemy population (e.g. Britain&#039;s use of concentration camps in the Boer war). That&#039;s what the US (fortunately) doesn&#039;t have the &quot;will&quot; for - conscription and mass exterminations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m not sure &#8220;will&#8221; is the issue, at least in terms of the troops on the ground.</p>

	<p>The great advantage of insurgent forces is that they are able to choose the time and place at which they engage their enemy. This has the effect of neutralising superior force (it also makes it very hard for the insurgents to achieve absolute victory, as once they start controlling territory they lose some of that advantage).</p>

	<p>For a military power to destroy an insurgency it typically needs to use overwhelming force <strong>plus</strong> the acceptance of unconscionable acts against the enemy population (e.g. Britain&#8217;s use of concentration camps in the Boer war). That&#8217;s what the <span class="caps">US </span>(fortunately) doesn&#8217;t have the &#8220;will&#8221; for &#8211; conscription and mass exterminations.</p>
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		<title>By: roger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-182682</link>
		<dc:creator>roger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Dec 2006 06:11:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory/#comment-182682</guid>
		<description>&quot;Roger may consider his anti-colonial non-interventionism a morally superior policy,but really it just shows that people like him care more about feeling morally superior than about really doing something for the oppressed peoples of the Earth.&quot;

No, it shows that people like me think that it is better for the oppressed people of the earth, as well as the oppressed people of the U.S.A, to promote an anti-colonial anti-interventionist policy. The Vietnam syndrome is otherwise known as self-doubt - and self doubt, in persons and nations, is the first intimation of a more reflexive, and even mature, position in life. If the U.S. hadn&#039;t interfered by throwing a monkey wrench into the elections that were slated after the Geneva accords that ended the first Vietnam war, Ho Chi Minh would undoubtedly have been elected the leader of a united Vietnam. If the U.S. had then accepted him as such and negotiated a relationship with Vietnam, maybe 2 million Vietnamese would not have died, and surely 60 some thousand Americans and thousand more wounded would have benefited. 

Luckily, it looks like conservatives are going to have to be driven crazy again, as the fallout from Iraq is likely to put the keebosh on, say, bombing Iran, and other things unlikely to help the oppressed of the earth, and likely to sustain the inordinately massive military sector in the U.S. Keep that up and the U.S. will have to negotiate instead of unilaterally demand, have to cooperate internationally instead of take the lead, and in other ways become a normal nation, rather than the &#039;indispensable&#039; nation that, in truth, it has never been. I hope that the U.S. succeeds at this. I hope the U.S. fails at being a hyperpower. I can&#039;t imagine any advantage the vast majority of Americans would ever accrue from the successful completion of vanity projects dreamt up by the bungalow militarists in D.C.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Roger may consider his anti-colonial non-interventionism a morally superior policy,but really it just shows that people like him care more about feeling morally superior than about really doing something for the oppressed peoples of the Earth.&#8221;</p>

	<p>No, it shows that people like me think that it is better for the oppressed people of the earth, as well as the oppressed people of the U.S.A, to promote an anti-colonial anti-interventionist policy. The Vietnam syndrome is otherwise known as self-doubt &#8211; and self doubt, in persons and nations, is the first intimation of a more reflexive, and even mature, position in life. If the U.S. hadn&#8217;t interfered by throwing a monkey wrench into the elections that were slated after the Geneva accords that ended the first Vietnam war, Ho Chi Minh would undoubtedly have been elected the leader of a united Vietnam. If the U.S. had then accepted him as such and negotiated a relationship with Vietnam, maybe 2 million Vietnamese would not have died, and surely 60 some thousand Americans and thousand more wounded would have benefited.</p>

	<p>Luckily, it looks like conservatives are going to have to be driven crazy again, as the fallout from Iraq is likely to put the keebosh on, say, bombing Iran, and other things unlikely to help the oppressed of the earth, and likely to sustain the inordinately massive military sector in the U.S. Keep that up and the U.S. will have to negotiate instead of unilaterally demand, have to cooperate internationally instead of take the lead, and in other ways become a normal nation, rather than the &#8216;indispensable&#8217; nation that, in truth, it has never been. I hope that the U.S. succeeds at this. I hope the U.S. fails at being a hyperpower. I can&#8217;t imagine any advantage the vast majority of Americans would ever accrue from the successful completion of vanity projects dreamt up by the bungalow militarists in D.C.</p>
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		<title>By: Carlyle Moulton</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-182666</link>
		<dc:creator>Carlyle Moulton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Dec 2006 12:59:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory/#comment-182666</guid>
		<description>It is a mistake to expect nations to behave honourably or morally. When a nation engages in a war of choice it will try to justify it with appeals to moral authority but these will be totally phoney. The real reasons will be hidden and will relate to the percieved and unenlightened self interest of the rich power elites that own the sovreignty of that nation. None of these reasons if explicitly stated would appeal to poor people that serve as cannon fodder in the nation&#039;s military nor to the citizens of the enemy country who will serve as target fodder.

Weapons of mass destruction ....blah, blah, human rights abuses by Saddam .....blah blah these are the phoney justifications given by George W Bush for the war on Iraq.

The real reasons will have included such things as  enriching corporations that have access to the massive cash flows from no-tender contracts for rebuilding Iraqi infrastructure paid for by Iraqi funds and which can in turn direct some of this cash to The Republican party to cement its control of US politics.

Iraqis may have been grateful for the removal of Saddam Hussein but by now they will have no illusions that American goals in Iraq are in any way consistent with their own perceived interests and they will eventually turn against the US occupation if they have not already done so.  

The failure of the US in Iraq has nothing to do with US will to win, but with the inevetible recognition by Iraqis that US goals conflict with their own interests. If the US exhibits a failure of will it is because the cannon fodder and their families are recognizing that the goals of the US elites whom the George W Bush presidency represents have nothing in it for them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It is a mistake to expect nations to behave honourably or morally. When a nation engages in a war of choice it will try to justify it with appeals to moral authority but these will be totally phoney. The real reasons will be hidden and will relate to the percieved and unenlightened self interest of the rich power elites that own the sovreignty of that nation. None of these reasons if explicitly stated would appeal to poor people that serve as cannon fodder in the nation&#8217;s military nor to the citizens of the enemy country who will serve as target fodder.</p>

	<p>Weapons of mass destruction &#8230;.blah, blah, human rights abuses by Saddam &#8230;..blah blah these are the phoney justifications given by George W Bush for the war on Iraq.</p>

	<p>The real reasons will have included such things as  enriching corporations that have access to the massive cash flows from no-tender contracts for rebuilding Iraqi infrastructure paid for by Iraqi funds and which can in turn direct some of this cash to The Republican party to cement its control of US politics.</p>

	<p>Iraqis may have been grateful for the removal of Saddam Hussein but by now they will have no illusions that American goals in Iraq are in any way consistent with their own perceived interests and they will eventually turn against the US occupation if they have not already done so.</p>

	<p>The failure of the US in Iraq has nothing to do with US will to win, but with the inevetible recognition by Iraqis that US goals conflict with their own interests. If the US exhibits a failure of will it is because the cannon fodder and their families are recognizing that the goals of the US elites whom the George W Bush presidency represents have nothing in it for them.</p>
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		<title>By: mike (Troll)</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-182653</link>
		<dc:creator>mike (Troll)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Dec 2006 23:22:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory/#comment-182653</guid>
		<description>I’m determined to prove that i&#039;m the stupidest and stubbornest troll ever to post on the subject of IQ and race.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m determined to prove that i&#8217;m the stupidest and stubbornest troll ever to post on the subject of IQ and race.</p>
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		<title>By: serial catowner</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-182644</link>
		<dc:creator>serial catowner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Dec 2006 19:13:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory/#comment-182644</guid>
		<description>Well, me for the Green Lantern Theory.  Somehow I got on a mail list with some of these &quot;conservatives&quot; and some of the things they say make you think they learned history from their Marx playsets.

I don&#039;t buy at all the concept of the US as the one global power that can rally the forces of law and order.  The only reason we have this much military power is because we are &lt;i&gt;insane bellicose warmongers&lt;/i&gt;.  Kinda like deciding that the bouncer at the biker&#039;s tavern would be a good choice to run for sheriff.  Seems pretty plain to me that the world would be better off if we would just &#039;butt out&#039; for a while.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, me for the Green Lantern Theory.  Somehow I got on a mail list with some of these &#8220;conservatives&#8221; and some of the things they say make you think they learned history from their Marx playsets.</p>

	<p>I don&#8217;t buy at all the concept of the US as the one global power that can rally the forces of law and order.  The only reason we have this much military power is because we are <i>insane bellicose warmongers</i>.  Kinda like deciding that the bouncer at the biker&#8217;s tavern would be a good choice to run for sheriff.  Seems pretty plain to me that the world would be better off if we would just &#8216;butt out&#8217; for a while.</p>
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		<title>By: bi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-182641</link>
		<dc:creator>bi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Dec 2006 18:27:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory/#comment-182641</guid>
		<description>mike: Does your very intelligent self know that you&#039;re not posting on-topic? The title of this thread is &quot;The empirical basis of the Green Lantern Theory&quot;. Go jerk off to your IQ theories elsewhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>mike: Does your very intelligent self know that you&#8217;re not posting on-topic? The title of this thread is &#8220;The empirical basis of the Green Lantern Theory&#8221;. Go jerk off to your IQ theories elsewhere.</p>
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		<title>By: mike (Troll)</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-182634</link>
		<dc:creator>mike (Troll)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Dec 2006 17:09:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory/#comment-182634</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not only a stupid racist troll, I can&#039;t take a hint.


&lt;em&gt;As noted above, I&#039;m dealing with persistent trolls by replacing their text with my shorter interpretation - this will be done without notice for you, Mike&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m not only a stupid racist troll, I can&#8217;t take a hint.</p>


	<p><em>As noted above, I&#8217;m dealing with persistent trolls by replacing their text with my shorter interpretation &#8211; this will be done without notice for you, Mike</em></p>
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		<title>By: bi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-182630</link>
		<dc:creator>bi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Dec 2006 15:08:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory/#comment-182630</guid>
		<description>Doesn&#039;t David Wright realize that the impulse to be &quot;really doing something&quot; is what leads to &quot;incompetent execution&quot;? Post-war plan? Who needs any post war plan? We dun need no steenkin&#039; post-war plan! All we need is Will Will Will, and if anything goes wrong let&#039;s blame it on those victory-hating librulz!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Doesn&#8217;t David Wright realize that the impulse to be &#8220;really doing something&#8221; is what leads to &#8220;incompetent execution&#8221;? Post-war plan? Who needs any post war plan? We dun need no steenkin&#8217; post-war plan! All we need is Will Will Will, and if anything goes wrong let&#8217;s blame it on those victory-hating librulz!</p>
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		<title>By: David Wright</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-182626</link>
		<dc:creator>David Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Dec 2006 11:50:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory/#comment-182626</guid>
		<description>Roger @ 4 said: &quot;The Vietnam syndrome was the best syndrome this country ever caught.&quot;

Statements like that are what make conservatives believe that &quot;willpower&quot; is the problem. It drives them batty that there are people like Roger who actually &lt;i&gt;hope&lt;/i&gt; the U.S. will fail so that they can feel confirmed in their pacifism, and win over others to their cause. And on this point, I share the conservatives&#039; sentiment.

The fact is, this war was lost by incompetent execution, pure and simple. And that&#039;s not a godsend; it&#039;s a tragdey. It&#039;s a tragedy for all the vast majority of Iraqis who were thrilled to see the end of Sadam&#039;s dictatorship and who desperately wished to live in a democratic, federal, and peaceful Iraq.

Roger may consider his anti-colonial non-interventionism a morally superior policy, but really it just shows that people like him care more about feeling morally superior than about really doing something for the oppressed peoples of the Earth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Roger @ 4 said: &#8220;The Vietnam syndrome was the best syndrome this country ever caught.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Statements like that are what make conservatives believe that &#8220;willpower&#8221; is the problem. It drives them batty that there are people like Roger who actually <i>hope</i> the U.S. will fail so that they can feel confirmed in their pacifism, and win over others to their cause. And on this point, I share the conservatives&#8217; sentiment.</p>

	<p>The fact is, this war was lost by incompetent execution, pure and simple. And that&#8217;s not a godsend; it&#8217;s a tragdey. It&#8217;s a tragedy for all the vast majority of Iraqis who were thrilled to see the end of Sadam&#8217;s dictatorship and who desperately wished to live in a democratic, federal, and peaceful Iraq.</p>

	<p>Roger may consider his anti-colonial non-interventionism a morally superior policy, but really it just shows that people like him care more about feeling morally superior than about really doing something for the oppressed peoples of the Earth.</p>
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		<title>By: alphie</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-182625</link>
		<dc:creator>alphie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Dec 2006 10:52:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory/#comment-182625</guid>
		<description>At least half of the world&#039;s non-US population now live in nuclear powers. 

America&#039;s &quot;unique capacity to enforce the global law&quot; is limited to non-nuclear half of the world.

Maybe less, actually.  I can&#039;t imagine America could intervene in a meaningful way in non-nuclear countries with large populations like Brazil, Nigeria and Indonesia, eiher.

So, in reality, America&#039;s power to enforce &quot;global law&quot; only extends to non-nuclear, small population countries like...Iraq and Afghanistan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>At least half of the world&#8217;s non-US population now live in nuclear powers.</p>

	<p>America&#8217;s &#8220;unique capacity to enforce the global law&#8221; is limited to non-nuclear half of the world.</p>

	<p>Maybe less, actually.  I can&#8217;t imagine America could intervene in a meaningful way in non-nuclear countries with large populations like Brazil, Nigeria and Indonesia, eiher.</p>

	<p>So, in reality, America&#8217;s power to enforce &#8220;global law&#8221; only extends to non-nuclear, small population countries like&#8230;Iraq and Afghanistan.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-182618</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Dec 2006 07:22:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory/#comment-182618</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve deleted some self-refuting racism from Mike (why is that the idea of racial differences in IQ seems to appeal most to people who are obvious counterexamples?) and also a number of replies, since the thread was being derailed.

In response to George W. I agree with your point, which I&#039;ve seen from Bobbitt, but the critical thing about wars of choice is that the &lt;i&gt;status quo ante&lt;/i&gt; is an available option. The US could have negotiated with Britain in 1812, left the Phillipines alone and imposed a favorable peace in 1950.

Of course, the world is dynamic and things change over time, but mostly the &lt;i&gt;status quo ante&lt;/i&gt;  is the best basis for estimating the likely consequences of inaction.

Of course that&#039;s exactly why the advocates of aggressive wars almost invariably produce pretexts that seem to demand immediate action.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;ve deleted some self-refuting racism from Mike (why is that the idea of racial differences in IQ seems to appeal most to people who are obvious counterexamples?) and also a number of replies, since the thread was being derailed.</p>

	<p>In response to George W. I agree with your point, which I&#8217;ve seen from Bobbitt, but the critical thing about wars of choice is that the <i>status quo ante</i> is an available option. The US could have negotiated with Britain in 1812, left the Phillipines alone and imposed a favorable peace in 1950.</p>

	<p>Of course, the world is dynamic and things change over time, but mostly the <i>status quo ante</i>  is the best basis for estimating the likely consequences of inaction.</p>

	<p>Of course that&#8217;s exactly why the advocates of aggressive wars almost invariably produce pretexts that seem to demand immediate action.</p>
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		<title>By: mike</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-182601</link>
		<dc:creator>mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Dec 2006 21:41:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory/#comment-182601</guid>
		<description>
&lt;i&gt;Stupid and racist comment deleted - JQ&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Stupid and racist comment deleted &#8211; JQ</i></p>
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		<title>By: mike</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-182600</link>
		<dc:creator>mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Dec 2006 21:35:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory/#comment-182600</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Deleted as above  - JQ&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Deleted as above  &#8211; JQ</i></p>
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		<title>By: George W</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-182596</link>
		<dc:creator>George W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Dec 2006 20:21:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory/#comment-182596</guid>
		<description>Without mounting a full response, I did just want to disagree with your definition of losing a war.  A country has lost a war not when it comes out worse than when it went it, but when it comes out worse than it would have been had it not gone in.  Unfortunately a far more speculative measure, but there it is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Without mounting a full response, I did just want to disagree with your definition of losing a war.  A country has lost a war not when it comes out worse than when it went it, but when it comes out worse than it would have been had it not gone in.  Unfortunately a far more speculative measure, but there it is.</p>
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		<title>By: bi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-182595</link>
		<dc:creator>bi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Dec 2006 19:35:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/12/21/the-empirical-basis-of-the-green-lantern-theory/#comment-182595</guid>
		<description>mike: Yeah right, the IQ of the &quot;average Arab&quot; is much lower than our average IQ, but they&#039;re smart enough to break our conventional model of warfare. Or maybe they managed to break our conventional model because they&#039;re dumb. Which means, to defeat them, we should make ourselves even dumber.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>mike: Yeah right, the IQ of the &#8220;average Arab&#8221; is much lower than our average IQ, but they&#8217;re smart enough to break our conventional model of warfare. Or maybe they managed to break our conventional model because they&#8217;re dumb. Which means, to defeat them, we should make ourselves even dumber.</p>
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