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	<title>Comments on: Connecting the dots</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Pie and Coffee &#187; Items</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/comment-page-2/#comment-185095</link>
		<dc:creator>Pie and Coffee &#187; Items</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jan 2007 19:44:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/#comment-185095</guid>
		<description>[...] John Quiggin:  The Republican War on Science is so broad-based that there is now no academic discipline whose conclusions can be considered acceptable to orthodox Republicans. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] John Quiggin:  The Republican War on Science is so broad-based that there is now no academic discipline whose conclusions can be considered acceptable to orthodox Republicans. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: McDruid</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/comment-page-2/#comment-184894</link>
		<dc:creator>McDruid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jan 2007 22:42:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/#comment-184894</guid>
		<description>My dear functional, you are confusing the concept of individual Republicans with the official policy of the party. By your logic, you would not be able to find any policy or idea that &quot;Republicans&quot; believe in because you can always find some individual Republicans that disbelieve in any single policy.

But as much as you try to avoid it, the official policy line of the Republican Party of Texas endorses creationism. The national party doesn&#039;t say this as boldfacedly, but most people understand their kowtowing to local control of schools as a coded way of saying this.

Your problem with your phrase &quot;human entity&quot; is that you have not defined it. So Bi&#039;s assumption that you meant both the &quot;human&quot; soul and the &quot;animal&quot; soul (following from Confucious&#039; definition) is natural. Even your own reference doesn&#039;t use the term entity, rather uses the more specific word &quot;organism.&quot; So all you have to do is to state that you meant the &quot;animal&quot; soul and not the &quot;human&quot; soul.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>My dear functional, you are confusing the concept of individual Republicans with the official policy of the party. By your logic, you would not be able to find any policy or idea that &#8220;Republicans&#8221; believe in because you can always find some individual Republicans that disbelieve in any single policy.</p>

	<p>But as much as you try to avoid it, the official policy line of the Republican Party of Texas endorses creationism. The national party doesn&#8217;t say this as boldfacedly, but most people understand their kowtowing to local control of schools as a coded way of saying this.</p>

	<p>Your problem with your phrase &#8220;human entity&#8221; is that you have not defined it. So Bi&#8217;s assumption that you meant both the &#8220;human&#8221; soul and the &#8220;animal&#8221; soul (following from Confucious&#8217; definition) is natural. Even your own reference doesn&#8217;t use the term entity, rather uses the more specific word &#8220;organism.&#8221; So all you have to do is to state that you meant the &#8220;animal&#8221; soul and not the &#8220;human&#8221; soul.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Botts</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/comment-page-2/#comment-184890</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Botts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jan 2007 22:23:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/#comment-184890</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m afraid there is indeed a &quot;war on facts&quot; in our society, and it is bipartisan. Indeed it is one of the impulses that today&#039;s Right and Left most clearly have in common -- one more way in which progressives have become the new conservatives. Both the original post and much of the comments here are excellent examples of that sad reality.

Regarding Reynolds and income inequality, I&#039;ve read all of the specific research he critiques as well as his critique, and now several rejoinders to him as well. My reaction from reading Piketty-Saez was to wonder frankly why anyone had taken their claims seriously in the first place --  the logic flaws are wide enough to drive a truck through. And to date I&#039;ve still not seen an explanation from them or anyone else for the single largest absurdity which is their acknowledged-without-explanation exclusion of entitlements from the definition of income.

None of that proves that inequality isn&#039;t rising, and I&#039;m not all sure that it isn&#039;t. I am sure from long experience that arguments on factual issues which center on non-factual questions (such as the other side&#039;s motivations or attitudes) are big warning signs of bullshit on the march.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m afraid there is indeed a &#8220;war on facts&#8221; in our society, and it is bipartisan. Indeed it is one of the impulses that today&#8217;s Right and Left most clearly have in common&#8212;one more way in which progressives have become the new conservatives. Both the original post and much of the comments here are excellent examples of that sad reality.</p>

	<p>Regarding Reynolds and income inequality, I&#8217;ve read all of the specific research he critiques as well as his critique, and now several rejoinders to him as well. My reaction from reading Piketty-Saez was to wonder frankly why anyone had taken their claims seriously in the first place&#8212; the logic flaws are wide enough to drive a truck through. And to date I&#8217;ve still not seen an explanation from them or anyone else for the single largest absurdity which is their acknowledged-without-explanation exclusion of entitlements from the definition of income.</p>

	<p>None of that proves that inequality isn&#8217;t rising, and I&#8217;m not all sure that it isn&#8217;t. I am sure from long experience that arguments on factual issues which center on non-factual questions (such as the other side&#8217;s motivations or attitudes) are big warning signs of bullshit on the march.</p>
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		<title>By: Functional</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/comment-page-2/#comment-184872</link>
		<dc:creator>Functional</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jan 2007 19:30:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/#comment-184872</guid>
		<description>Bi, you&#039;re moving the goalposts.  If my original claim were that &quot;all obstetrics textbooks say X,&quot; then it would be OK to ask for proof.  

My original claim (which you misquote egregiously) was this: &quot;clear fact of embryology that a new human entity’s life begins at conception.&quot;


Your response, which I will actually quote (rather than making up a quotation and putting it in quotation marks, as you did): &quot;Show me one scientific paper which manages to scientifically hypothesize in a falsifiable way, and prove by empirical observation, that “a new human entity’s life begins at conception”. Wait: there’s no such paper!&quot;

So you made an affirmative claim here: There&#039;s no such paper.  Prove THAT, oh expert embryologist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Bi, you&#8217;re moving the goalposts.  If my original claim were that &#8220;all obstetrics textbooks say X,&#8221; then it would be OK to ask for proof.</p>

	<p>My original claim (which you misquote egregiously) was this: &#8220;clear fact of embryology that a new human entity&#8217;s life begins at conception.&#8221;</p>


	<p>Your response, which I will actually quote (rather than making up a quotation and putting it in quotation marks, as you did): &#8220;Show me one scientific paper which manages to scientifically hypothesize in a falsifiable way, and prove by empirical observation, that &#8220;a new human entity&#8217;s life begins at conception&#8221;. Wait: there&#8217;s no such paper!&#8221;</p>

	<p>So you made an affirmative claim here: There&#8217;s no such paper.  Prove <span class="caps">THAT</span>, oh expert embryologist.</p>
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		<title>By: bi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/comment-page-2/#comment-184865</link>
		<dc:creator>bi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jan 2007 18:43:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/#comment-184865</guid>
		<description>And what&#039;s more, Functional, your repeated claims that this &quot;burden of proof&quot; thing is &quot;concocted&quot; by some Politically Biased Wacko is itself &lt;em&gt;proof enough&lt;/em&gt; that you&#039;re not the slightest bit interested in learning anything about science or logic themselves.

And I&#039;m not going to debate any more about &quot;science&quot; with someone who refuses to actually &lt;em&gt;know anything&lt;/em&gt; about the &lt;em&gt;basic principles&lt;/em&gt; of science.

Good day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>And what&#8217;s more, Functional, your repeated claims that this &#8220;burden of proof&#8221; thing is &#8220;concocted&#8221; by some Politically Biased Wacko is itself <em>proof enough</em> that you&#8217;re not the slightest bit interested in learning anything about science or logic themselves.</p>

	<p>And I&#8217;m not going to debate any more about &#8220;science&#8221; with someone who refuses to actually <em>know anything</em> about the <em>basic principles</em> of science.</p>

	<p>Good day.</p>
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		<title>By: bi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/comment-page-2/#comment-184862</link>
		<dc:creator>bi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jan 2007 18:31:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/#comment-184862</guid>
		<description>Well, Functional, you want to split tiny hairs? Let me point out that the quote talks about a &quot;new human organism&quot;, not a &quot;new human life&quot; or a &quot;new human entity&#039;s life&quot; as you put it. The text even says that &quot;life is a continuous process&quot; and that &quot;fertilization ... is not a &#039;moment&#039;&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, Functional, you want to split tiny hairs? Let me point out that the quote talks about a &#8220;new human organism&#8221;, not a &#8220;new human life&#8221; or a &#8220;new human entity&#8217;s life&#8221; as you put it. The text even says that &#8220;life is a continuous process&#8221; and that &#8220;fertilization &#8230; is not a &#8216;moment&#8217;&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Functional</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/comment-page-2/#comment-184857</link>
		<dc:creator>Functional</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jan 2007 18:06:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/#comment-184857</guid>
		<description>Duh -- the textbook goes on to speculate about the &quot;philosophical sense&quot; of when human life begins.  I&#039;ve said all along that that is a separate moral question, quite apart from the scientific fact of when the human organism&#039;s life begins.  As to the latter question, there&#039;s no debate whatsoever -- and yet you&#039;re still here, debating it.  Why?  Sheer stupidity?  Or letting politics drive your view of science?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Duh&#8212;the textbook goes on to speculate about the &#8220;philosophical sense&#8221; of when human life begins.  I&#8217;ve said all along that that is a separate moral question, quite apart from the scientific fact of when the human organism&#8217;s life begins.  As to the latter question, there&#8217;s no debate whatsoever&#8212;and yet you&#8217;re still here, debating it.  Why?  Sheer stupidity?  Or letting politics drive your view of science?</p>
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		<title>By: bi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/comment-page-2/#comment-184844</link>
		<dc:creator>bi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:07:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/#comment-184844</guid>
		<description>The next paragraph of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0471382256/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-5348843-2089768#reader-link&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;O&#039;Rahilly and M&#252;ller&lt;/a&gt; points out that
&lt;em&gt;Debate has occurred over the philosophical conclusion whether the human organism is (1) ab initio, i.e. from fertilization, an actual human person in a philosophical sense, or (2) a potential person becoming actual at a later time. In order to justify the latter assumption, it is claimed that a certain degree of bodily complexity is necessary for the attainment of human personhood (e.g. Maritain, 1967), the presence of a human individual with a human nature.&lt;/em&gt;

And things get more interesting immediately after that:
&lt;em&gt;Particular significance is often assigned to the first 2--2&#189; postfertilizational weeks [footnotes] because monozygotic twinning can still occur during that time; ... Monozygotic twins are genetically but not ontologically identical, and so it has been maintained that the non-individuated embryo of 2--2&#189; weeks has yet to acquire determinate individuality, a stable (ontological) human identity. It is quite possible, however, that twinning may be determined extremely early.&lt;/em&gt;

If you want to quote people out of context, can you at least refrain from doing it in such an obviously stupid way?

&lt;em&gt;anyone who takes the standard scientific view of human development hasn&#039;t met your concocted burden of proof.&lt;/em&gt;

Hey, &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;look here&lt;/a&gt;. And you know, I actually wrote very clearly that it&#039;s not what &quot;view&quot; you take, it&#039;s what you present as being objectively true. In this case, your &#039;objectively true&#039; claim &lt;i&gt;P&lt;/i&gt; is not &quot;a foetus is a new human being&quot;, it is &quot;any obstetrics textbook will say that a foetus is a new human being&quot;.

Then again, why should I expect you to care about any of this? You&#039;re clearly refusing to actually learn anything about how science, logic, and fact-finding works -- even as you claim to be pro-science.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The next paragraph of <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0471382256/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-5348843-2089768#reader-link" rel="nofollow">O&#8217;Rahilly and M&#252;ller</a> points out that<br />
<em>Debate has occurred over the philosophical conclusion whether the human organism is (1) ab initio, i.e. from fertilization, an actual human person in a philosophical sense, or (2) a potential person becoming actual at a later time. In order to justify the latter assumption, it is claimed that a certain degree of bodily complexity is necessary for the attainment of human personhood (e.g. Maritain, 1967), the presence of a human individual with a human nature.</em></p>

	<p>And things get more interesting immediately after that:<br />
<em>Particular significance is often assigned to the first 2&#8212;2&#189; postfertilizational weeks [footnotes] because monozygotic twinning can still occur during that time; &#8230; Monozygotic twins are genetically but not ontologically identical, and so it has been maintained that the non-individuated embryo of 2&#8212;2&#189; weeks has yet to acquire determinate individuality, a stable (ontological) human identity. It is quite possible, however, that twinning may be determined extremely early.</em></p>

	<p>If you want to quote people out of context, can you at least refrain from doing it in such an obviously stupid way?</p>

	<p><em>anyone who takes the standard scientific view of human development hasn&#8217;t met your concocted burden of proof.</em></p>

	<p>Hey, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof" rel="nofollow">look here</a>. And you know, I actually wrote very clearly that it&#8217;s not what &#8220;view&#8221; you take, it&#8217;s what you present as being objectively true. In this case, your &#8216;objectively true&#8217; claim <i>P</i> is not &#8220;a foetus is a new human being&#8221;, it is &#8220;any obstetrics textbook will say that a foetus is a new human being&#8221;.</p>

	<p>Then again, why should I expect you to care about any of this? You&#8217;re clearly refusing to actually learn anything about how science, logic, and fact-finding works&#8212;even as you claim to be pro-science.</p>
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		<title>By: Functional</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/comment-page-2/#comment-184825</link>
		<dc:creator>Functional</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:16:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/#comment-184825</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Good at ignoring disconfirming evidence, aren’t you? That is the hallmark of a nonscientific view.&lt;/i&gt;

Back at you, and all the rest who ignore that there are tens of millions of &quot;orthodox Republicans&quot; who are just fine with evolution. 

BI -- you&#039;re just playing games.  You have zero interest in science.  There is no scientific argument that a new human life begins anywhere other than at conception.  The question about abortion is how to treat that life, but it&#039;s indisputable that the life is there.  Just one of many, many sources (you can look this up on Amazon): 

Human Embryology &amp; Teratology, by Ronan R. O&#039;Rahilly and Fabiola Muller.  Page 8.  Quote: &quot;Although life is a continuous process, fertilization (which, incidentally, is not a &quot;moment&quot;) is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a &lt;b&gt;new, genetically distinct human organism&lt;/b&gt; is formed when the chromosomes of the male and female pronuclei blend in the oocyte.&quot;  

There are lots more textbooks along this line that you can find on Amazon.  If, that is, you&#039;re interested in anything beyond playing stupid games on the Internet by pretending that anyone who takes the standard scientific view of human development hasn&#039;t met your concocted burden of proof.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Good at ignoring disconfirming evidence, aren&#8217;t you? That is the hallmark of a nonscientific view.</i></p>

	<p>Back at you, and all the rest who ignore that there are tens of millions of &#8220;orthodox Republicans&#8221; who are just fine with evolution.</p>

	<p><span class="caps">BI </span>&#8212;you&#8217;re just playing games.  You have zero interest in science.  There is no scientific argument that a new human life begins anywhere other than at conception.  The question about abortion is how to treat that life, but it&#8217;s indisputable that the life is there.  Just one of many, many sources (you can look this up on Amazon):</p>

	<p>Human Embryology &#038; Teratology, by Ronan R. O&#8217;Rahilly and Fabiola Muller.  Page 8.  Quote: &#8220;Although life is a continuous process, fertilization (which, incidentally, is not a &#8220;moment&#8221;) is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a <b>new, genetically distinct human organism</b> is formed when the chromosomes of the male and female pronuclei blend in the oocyte.&#8221;</p>

	<p>There are lots more textbooks along this line that you can find on Amazon.  If, that is, you&#8217;re interested in anything beyond playing stupid games on the Internet by pretending that anyone who takes the standard scientific view of human development hasn&#8217;t met your concocted burden of proof.</p>
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		<title>By: McDruid</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/comment-page-2/#comment-184798</link>
		<dc:creator>McDruid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:48:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/#comment-184798</guid>
		<description>functional,

Good at ignoring disconfirming evidence, aren&#039;t you? That is the hallmark of a nonscientific view. 

When the largest and most influential state Republican party officially endorses I.D., that is enough to validate the anti-science credentials of Republicans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>functional,</p>

	<p>Good at ignoring disconfirming evidence, aren&#8217;t you? That is the hallmark of a nonscientific view.</p>

	<p>When the largest and most influential state Republican party officially endorses I.D., that is enough to validate the anti-science credentials of Republicans.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: bi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/comment-page-2/#comment-184786</link>
		<dc:creator>bi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jan 2007 05:23:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/#comment-184786</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;still waiting for you to call out the anti-science morons on this very thread who think that life doesn’t begin until birth.&lt;/em&gt;

Oh, great. What&#039;s this &quot;science&quot; of yours &lt;a href=&quot;http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/#comment-184622&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;again&lt;/a&gt;?

&lt;em&gt;&quot;The other way of measuring the dates of the pregnancy is to measure the fetal age. The fetal age of the pregnancy is measured from the time of conception or the estimated time of conception (ETC).&quot;&lt;/em&gt;

What a major breakthrough for anti-abortionism! We still don&#039;t know whether a foetus is a real human, but research on embryology has shown us that &lt;b&gt;a foetus is a foetus!&lt;/b&gt;

Oh, and...

&lt;em&gt;got a cite to prove that the Earth is round? Huh? Guess it’s not, then.&lt;/em&gt;

You know, the way this whole &quot;burden of proof&quot; works is this: &lt;b&gt;if a person &lt;i&gt;X&lt;/i&gt; makes a claim &lt;i&gt;P&lt;/i&gt;, the onus is on &lt;i&gt;X&lt;/i&gt; to prove &lt;i&gt;P&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;/b&gt; It&#039;s that simple. It&#039;s not &quot;&lt;i&gt;X&lt;/i&gt; makes a claim &lt;i&gt;P&lt;/i&gt;, now &lt;i&gt;Y&lt;/i&gt; must disprove &lt;i&gt;P&lt;/i&gt;&quot;. Or &quot;&lt;i&gt;X&lt;/i&gt; thinks that &lt;i&gt;Y&lt;/i&gt; believes a claim &lt;i&gt;P&lt;/i&gt;, therefore now &lt;i&gt;Y&lt;/i&gt; must prove &lt;i&gt;P&lt;/i&gt;&quot;.

But of course you wouldn&#039;t have known this, since you didn&#039;t show the least bit of interest in learning the first thing about scientific methodology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>still waiting for you to call out the anti-science morons on this very thread who think that life doesn&#8217;t begin until birth.</em></p>

	<p>Oh, great. What&#8217;s this &#8220;science&#8221; of yours <a href="http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/#comment-184622" rel="nofollow">again</a>?</p>

	<p><em>&#8220;The other way of measuring the dates of the pregnancy is to measure the fetal age. The fetal age of the pregnancy is measured from the time of conception or the estimated time of conception (ETC).&#8221;</em></p>

	<p>What a major breakthrough for anti-abortionism! We still don&#8217;t know whether a foetus is a real human, but research on embryology has shown us that <b>a foetus is a foetus!</b></p>

	<p>Oh, and&#8230;</p>

	<p><em>got a cite to prove that the Earth is round? Huh? Guess it&#8217;s not, then.</em></p>

	<p>You know, the way this whole &#8220;burden of proof&#8221; works is this: <b>if a person <i>X</i> makes a claim <i>P</i>, the onus is on <i>X</i> to prove <i>P</i>.</b> It&#8217;s that simple. It&#8217;s not &#8220;<i>X</i> makes a claim <i>P</i>, now <i>Y</i> must disprove <i>P</i>&#8220;. Or &#8220;<i>X</i> thinks that <i>Y</i> believes a claim <i>P</i>, therefore now <i>Y</i> must prove <i>P</i>&#8220;.</p>

	<p>But of course you wouldn&#8217;t have known this, since you didn&#8217;t show the least bit of interest in learning the first thing about scientific methodology.</p>
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		<title>By: Functional</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/comment-page-2/#comment-184775</link>
		<dc:creator>Functional</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jan 2007 01:37:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/#comment-184775</guid>
		<description>Anyway, this is veering away from my original point, which still stands: Quiggin is overwrought in claiming that &quot;there is now no academic discipline whose conclusions can be considered acceptable to orthodox Republicans.&quot;  That just isn&#039;t true, as it suggests that all conclusions of all academic disciplines are in doubt by &quot;orthodox&quot; Republicans (whatever that means).  Even as to economics, where Quiggin should know better, the most you could say is that there are *some* Republicans who disagree with the conclusion of some economists that supply side economics is bogus.  What Quiggin is doing is dishonest in two ways: 1) He treats supply side economics as if it represented the entirety of economics (as if there aren&#039;t about a thousand other things that economists study); 2) He lumps all &quot;orthodox Republicans&quot; into one box.  

In other words, Quiggin&#039;s post is just as if one said, &quot;Orthodox Democrats do not accept economics,&quot; when one really meant that 1) *some* Democrats disagree with 2) cost-benefit analysis of regulation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Anyway, this is veering away from my original point, which still stands: Quiggin is overwrought in claiming that &#8220;there is now no academic discipline whose conclusions can be considered acceptable to orthodox Republicans.&#8221;  That just isn&#8217;t true, as it suggests that all conclusions of all academic disciplines are in doubt by &#8220;orthodox&#8221; Republicans (whatever that means).  Even as to economics, where Quiggin should know better, the most you could say is that there are <strong>some</strong> Republicans who disagree with the conclusion of some economists that supply side economics is bogus.  What Quiggin is doing is dishonest in two ways: 1) He treats supply side economics as if it represented the entirety of economics (as if there aren&#8217;t about a thousand other things that economists study); 2) He lumps all &#8220;orthodox Republicans&#8221; into one box.</p>

	<p>In other words, Quiggin&#8217;s post is just as if one said, &#8220;Orthodox Democrats do not accept economics,&#8221; when one really meant that 1) <strong>some</strong> Democrats disagree with 2) cost-benefit analysis of regulation.</p>
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		<title>By: Functional</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/comment-page-2/#comment-184773</link>
		<dc:creator>Functional</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jan 2007 01:29:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/#comment-184773</guid>
		<description>As I just said, Quiggin&#039;s own survey showed that among moderate and liberal Republicans (who do exist), upwards of 60% aren&#039;t pushing for creationism in public schools.  This is quite a bit different from your dishonest characterization of my point (&quot;there is at least one Republican who is not a creationist&quot;).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>As I just said, Quiggin&#8217;s own survey showed that among moderate and liberal Republicans (who do exist), upwards of 60% aren&#8217;t pushing for creationism in public schools.  This is quite a bit different from your dishonest characterization of my point (&#8220;there is at least one Republican who is not a creationist&#8221;).</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/comment-page-2/#comment-184746</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jan 2007 20:54:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/#comment-184746</guid>
		<description>Functional - As far as I can see, for the last zillion comments or so you have essentially been repeating, &lt;i&gt;ad nauseum&lt;/i&gt;, your &quot;point&quot; that as there is at least one Republican who is not a creationist, the statement &quot;all Republicans are creationists&quot; must be false. So perhaps you would be so good as to point out where John or anyone else actually said this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Functional &#8211; As far as I can see, for the last zillion comments or so you have essentially been repeating, <i>ad nauseum</i>, your &#8220;point&#8221; that as there is at least one Republican who is not a creationist, the statement &#8220;all Republicans are creationists&#8221; must be false. So perhaps you would be so good as to point out where John or anyone else actually said this.</p>
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		<title>By: Functional</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/comment-page-2/#comment-184745</link>
		<dc:creator>Functional</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jan 2007 20:34:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/01/19/connecting-the-dots-2/#comment-184745</guid>
		<description>Quiggin -- still waiting for you to call out the anti-science morons on this very thread who think that life doesn&#039;t begin until birth.  

FYI: I&#039;m not trying to &quot;exhaust&quot; you.  Just asking for a shred of proof that &quot;orthodox Republicans&quot; are &quot;assiduously&quot; promoting Intelligent Design.  Name one thing that Bush has done to promote ID.  Name one thing that Bill Frist has done to promote ID.  Etc.  If you can&#039;t come up with even one thing, let alone numerous examples, shouldn&#039;t you stop using words like &quot;assiduously&quot;?  It suggests a lack of vocabulary.  Or accuracy.   

&lt;i&gt;“Politically, a majority of conservative Republicans favor replacing evolution with creationism in the classroom, but support for this proposal falls below 40% for all other political groups, including moderate and liberal Republicans.”&lt;/i&gt;

Whoop-de-do, BI.  If fewer than 40% of moderate and liberal Republicans want to replace evolution with creationism, guess that means it must NOT be true that all &quot;orthodox Republicans&quot; support creationism.  So you&#039;ve proven Quiggin to be sloppy, at best. 

Quiggin&#039;s possible excuse will be to claim that &quot;orthodox&quot; precisely means &quot;those Republicans who deny science,&quot; but then his original post becomes a pure tautology: &quot;there is now no academic discipline whose conclusions can be considered acceptable to those specific Republicans who don&#039;t accept those conclusions.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Quiggin&#8212;still waiting for you to call out the anti-science morons on this very thread who think that life doesn&#8217;t begin until birth.</p>

	<p><span class="caps">FYI</span>: I&#8217;m not trying to &#8220;exhaust&#8221; you.  Just asking for a shred of proof that &#8220;orthodox Republicans&#8221; are &#8220;assiduously&#8221; promoting Intelligent Design.  Name one thing that Bush has done to promote ID.  Name one thing that Bill Frist has done to promote ID.  Etc.  If you can&#8217;t come up with even one thing, let alone numerous examples, shouldn&#8217;t you stop using words like &#8220;assiduously&#8221;?  It suggests a lack of vocabulary.  Or accuracy.</p>

	<p><i>&#8220;Politically, a majority of conservative Republicans favor replacing evolution with creationism in the classroom, but support for this proposal falls below 40% for all other political groups, including moderate and liberal Republicans.&#8221;</i></p>

	<p>Whoop-de-do, BI.  If fewer than 40% of moderate and liberal Republicans want to replace evolution with creationism, guess that means it must <span class="caps">NOT</span> be true that all &#8220;orthodox Republicans&#8221; support creationism.  So you&#8217;ve proven Quiggin to be sloppy, at best.</p>

	<p>Quiggin&#8217;s possible excuse will be to claim that &#8220;orthodox&#8221; precisely means &#8220;those Republicans who deny science,&#8221; but then his original post becomes a pure tautology: &#8220;there is now no academic discipline whose conclusions can be considered acceptable to those specific Republicans who don&#8217;t accept those conclusions.&#8221; </p>
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