Comments on: Pissing down our backs and telling us it’s raining, an occasional series http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/01/pissing-down-our-backs-and-telling-us-its-raining-an-occasional-series/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Mon, 13 Feb 2012 10:24:44 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: clew http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/01/pissing-down-our-backs-and-telling-us-its-raining-an-occasional-series/comment-page-1/#comment-185849 clew Sat, 03 Feb 2007 23:31:37 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/01/pissing-down-our-backs-and-telling-us-its-raining-an-occasional-series/#comment-185849 Aspidistra was Orwell's version of "the only position for women in the Movement is prone", and I am glad to hear he was embarrassed by it later. Aspidistra was Orwell’s version of “the only position for women in the Movement is prone”, and I am glad to hear he was embarrassed by it later.

]]> By: John Emerson http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/01/pissing-down-our-backs-and-telling-us-its-raining-an-occasional-series/comment-page-1/#comment-185800 John Emerson Sat, 03 Feb 2007 13:00:06 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/01/pissing-down-our-backs-and-telling-us-its-raining-an-occasional-series/#comment-185800 Aspidastra was Orwell's least favorite, IIRC, and he may have refused to ahve it reprinted at one point. Aspidastra was Orwell’s least favorite, IIRC, and he may have refused to ahve it reprinted at one point.

]]> By: SamChevre http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/01/pissing-down-our-backs-and-telling-us-its-raining-an-occasional-series/comment-page-1/#comment-185735 SamChevre Fri, 02 Feb 2007 21:16:21 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/01/pissing-down-our-backs-and-telling-us-its-raining-an-occasional-series/#comment-185735 Turkish bill at #33, I think "Keep the Aspidastra Flying" is OK, but I'm much more familiar with working-class poverty than artist poverty. Turkish bill at #33,

I think “Keep the Aspidastra Flying” is OK, but I’m much more familiar with working-class poverty than artist poverty.

]]> By: Guano http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/01/pissing-down-our-backs-and-telling-us-its-raining-an-occasional-series/comment-page-1/#comment-185695 Guano Fri, 02 Feb 2007 15:58:49 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/01/pissing-down-our-backs-and-telling-us-its-raining-an-occasional-series/#comment-185695 Orwell got very hot under the collar about the word "trotsky-fascism" so he may have had a word or two to say about "islamo-fascism". Orwell got very hot under the collar about the word “trotsky-fascism” so he may have had a word or two to say about “islamo-fascism”.

]]> By: Steve LaBonne http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/01/pissing-down-our-backs-and-telling-us-its-raining-an-occasional-series/comment-page-1/#comment-185684 Steve LaBonne Fri, 02 Feb 2007 14:10:38 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/01/pissing-down-our-backs-and-telling-us-its-raining-an-occasional-series/#comment-185684 But it's increasingly clear that genocide is damn well what's going to happen as a <i>result</i> of the war. Funny how that wasn't discussed during the run-up, either... The "decents" should have the decency to shut the hell up. But it’s increasingly clear that genocide is damn well what’s going to happen as a result of the war. Funny how that wasn’t discussed during the run-up, either…

The “decents” should have the decency to shut the hell up.

]]> By: Brendan http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/01/pissing-down-our-backs-and-telling-us-its-raining-an-occasional-series/comment-page-1/#comment-185681 Brendan Fri, 02 Feb 2007 13:31:05 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/01/pissing-down-our-backs-and-telling-us-its-raining-an-occasional-series/#comment-185681 Just to clear something up: contrary to what the Decents normally state or imply, there actually already is an international mechanism to deal with genocide: it is called the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide and it came into effect in 1951. Now, sidestepping the issues of how well this convention has functioned since then, one thing must be made clear: the UN and Britain did NOT attempt to 'trigger it' to provide a causus belli for the invasion of Iraq. Instead they concentrated on WMD 'threat' and Saddam's alleged non-compliace with other, previous UN resolutions (but NOT the Genocide convention). The Decent habit of going: 'So what would you do about genocide then? Eh? Eh? Eh?' is an interesting question, of relevance to experts on international law, but it is totally irrelevant to the morality or otherwise of the invasion of Iraq because, to repeat, genocide was not discussed as a motivation for that war. Just to clear something up: contrary to what the Decents normally state or imply, there actually already is an international mechanism to deal with genocide: it is called the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide and it came into effect in 1951.

Now, sidestepping the issues of how well this convention has functioned since then, one thing must be made clear: the UN and Britain did NOT attempt to ‘trigger it’ to provide a causus belli for the invasion of Iraq. Instead they concentrated on WMD ‘threat’ and Saddam’s alleged non-compliace with other, previous UN resolutions (but NOT the Genocide convention).

The Decent habit of going: ‘So what would you do about genocide then? Eh? Eh? Eh?’ is an interesting question, of relevance to experts on international law, but it is totally irrelevant to the morality or otherwise of the invasion of Iraq because, to repeat, genocide was not discussed as a motivation for that war.

]]> By: Moz http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/01/pissing-down-our-backs-and-telling-us-its-raining-an-occasional-series/comment-page-1/#comment-185676 Moz Fri, 02 Feb 2007 12:25:12 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/01/pissing-down-our-backs-and-telling-us-its-raining-an-occasional-series/#comment-185676 Comment 16: <i>I supported both interventions, but I realize that that would render me not of “the left” in people’s eyes.</i> I think you're doing the same thing Cohen is - define "left" in a way that suits your argument, and rejecting anyone who doesn't hold that the idea you've defined. Which makes your/his argument easy, of course. What amuses me with these arguments is that "the other" is required to have a single, consistent position that never changes in the face of new information, while "the good guys" are allowed to do whatever they like, build the dictator up, smash him down, "Oceania has always been at war" indeed. On the left-right axis I'm definitely left, but I'm also strongly anarchist/green on those axes. And I have no problem at all supporting military intervention to stop genocide, as one possible approach. My problem with military intervention is that I want to see evidence that it actually works <b>before</b> I support it in a specific case. My understanding is that military interventions have worked, but not always, and the evidence suggests that the preconditions are not well understood. But I am probably wrong, military history is something I'm iggorent of. Remember - the World Trade Center attack occurred on the anniversary of the US coup in Chile that installed Pinochet (who is still a darling of the right). I still wonder if that date was deliberate. Comment 16: I supported both interventions, but I realize that that would render me not of “the left” in people’s eyes.

I think you’re doing the same thing Cohen is – define “left” in a way that suits your argument, and rejecting anyone who doesn’t hold that the idea you’ve defined. Which makes your/his argument easy, of course.

What amuses me with these arguments is that “the other” is required to have a single, consistent position that never changes in the face of new information, while “the good guys” are allowed to do whatever they like, build the dictator up, smash him down, “Oceania has always been at war” indeed.

On the left-right axis I’m definitely left, but I’m also strongly anarchist/green on those axes. And I have no problem at all supporting military intervention to stop genocide, as one possible approach. My problem with military intervention is that I want to see evidence that it actually works before I support it in a specific case. My understanding is that military interventions have worked, but not always, and the evidence suggests that the preconditions are not well understood. But I am probably wrong, military history is something I’m iggorent of.

Remember – the World Trade Center attack occurred on the anniversary of the US coup in Chile that installed Pinochet (who is still a darling of the right). I still wonder if that date was deliberate.

]]> By: ajay http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/01/pissing-down-our-backs-and-telling-us-its-raining-an-occasional-series/comment-page-1/#comment-185673 ajay Fri, 02 Feb 2007 11:21:34 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/01/pissing-down-our-backs-and-telling-us-its-raining-an-occasional-series/#comment-185673 <i>While growing up, his mother would search the supermarket shelves for politically reputable citrus fruit and despair</i> Aisle 1: Fresh Fruit and Vegetables, Lust, Envy, Ready-Made Salads, Sloth Aisle 8: Household Goods, Cleaning Products, Anomie, Toiletries, Despair, Self-Loathing, Baked Goods While growing up, his mother would search the supermarket shelves for politically reputable citrus fruit and despair

Aisle 1: Fresh Fruit and Vegetables, Lust, Envy, Ready-Made Salads, Sloth

Aisle 8: Household Goods, Cleaning Products, Anomie, Toiletries, Despair, Self-Loathing, Baked Goods

]]> By: turkish bill http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/01/pissing-down-our-backs-and-telling-us-its-raining-an-occasional-series/comment-page-1/#comment-185663 turkish bill Fri, 02 Feb 2007 08:20:36 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/01/pissing-down-our-backs-and-telling-us-its-raining-an-occasional-series/#comment-185663 samchevre at 26: How do you rate 'Keep the Aspidistra Flying'? samchevre at 26: How do you rate ‘Keep the Aspidistra Flying’?

]]> By: dr ngo http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/01/pissing-down-our-backs-and-telling-us-its-raining-an-occasional-series/comment-page-1/#comment-185653 dr ngo Fri, 02 Feb 2007 05:55:00 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/01/pissing-down-our-backs-and-telling-us-its-raining-an-occasional-series/#comment-185653 As a fan of Orwell, I feel I ought to take part in this discussion, but actually to think about his various writings and assess them at this hour of the morning (almost 1 AM) is more than I can manage. So I'll content myself with a simple query arising from this quote: <i>"... search the supermarket shelves for politically reputable citrus fruit and despair.”</i> Is the supermarket in fact the best place to look for politically reputable despair? As a fan of Orwell, I feel I ought to take part in this discussion, but actually to think about his various writings and assess them at this hour of the morning (almost 1 AM) is more than I can manage.

So I’ll content myself with a simple query arising from this quote:

“… search the supermarket shelves for politically reputable citrus fruit and despair.”

Is the supermarket in fact the best place to look for politically reputable despair?

]]> By: Brendan http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/01/pissing-down-our-backs-and-telling-us-its-raining-an-occasional-series/comment-page-1/#comment-185581 Brendan Thu, 01 Feb 2007 20:16:15 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/01/pissing-down-our-backs-and-telling-us-its-raining-an-occasional-series/#comment-185581 'What would Orwell have to say about the Decents?' Following from Daniel, the 'Notes on Nationalism' is relevant. 'The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.' See also his definition of intellectual features of nationalism: obsession, instability, and indifference to reality. It should also be noted that Orwell was always very clear that Zionism was a kind of nationalism. According to his Wikipedia entry, Orwell opposed the creation of the State of Israel (now that I've mentioned that the truth loving Decents will probably go now and alter that entry). ‘What would Orwell have to say about the Decents?’

Following from Daniel, the ‘Notes on Nationalism’ is relevant. ‘The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.’

See also his definition of intellectual features of nationalism: obsession, instability, and indifference to reality.

It should also be noted that Orwell was always very clear that Zionism was a kind of nationalism.

According to his Wikipedia entry, Orwell opposed the creation of the State of Israel (now that I’ve mentioned that the truth loving Decents will probably go now and alter that entry).

]]> By: John Emerson http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/01/pissing-down-our-backs-and-telling-us-its-raining-an-occasional-series/comment-page-1/#comment-185577 John Emerson Thu, 01 Feb 2007 20:06:56 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/01/pissing-down-our-backs-and-telling-us-its-raining-an-occasional-series/#comment-185577 From reading his letters, one of Orwell's main active political committments during his last thee or four years, possibly his only one, was the "Freedom Defense Committee", which specifically was intended to protect minority political opinions. And even at his worst (1941-1942) Orwell never approached the squealing rage characteristic of many of the Decents. (I'm more familiar with the "American" version of that shit -- i.e., Hitchens, Sullivan, and Kelly -- than with the Decents as such.) From reading his letters, one of Orwell’s main active political committments during his last thee or four years, possibly his only one, was the “Freedom Defense Committee”, which specifically was intended to protect minority political opinions.

And even at his worst (1941-1942) Orwell never approached the squealing rage characteristic of many of the Decents. (I’m more familiar with the “American” version of that shit—i.e., Hitchens, Sullivan, and Kelly—than with the Decents as such.)

]]> By: Daniel http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/01/pissing-down-our-backs-and-telling-us-its-raining-an-occasional-series/comment-page-1/#comment-185574 Daniel Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:38:24 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/01/pissing-down-our-backs-and-telling-us-its-raining-an-occasional-series/#comment-185574 I think he might say: "<a href="http://www.orwell.ru/library/articles/niggers/english/e_ncn" rel="nofollow">They are red-hot revolutionaries as long as all goes well, but every real emergency reveals instantly that they are shamming. One threat to the Suez Canal, and ‘anti-Fascism’ and ‘defence of British interests’ are discovered to be identical.</a>" I think he might say:

“They are red-hot revolutionaries as long as all goes well, but every real emergency reveals instantly that they are shamming. One threat to the Suez Canal, and ‘anti-Fascism’ and ‘defence of British interests’ are discovered to be identical.”

]]> By: engels http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/01/pissing-down-our-backs-and-telling-us-its-raining-an-occasional-series/comment-page-1/#comment-185569 engels Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:11:17 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/01/pissing-down-our-backs-and-telling-us-its-raining-an-occasional-series/#comment-185569 What would Orwell have to say about the Decents? Always a good question, particluarly while Harry's Place (and Decent Dave's blog for that matter) is currently dominated by a series of threads whose only purpose appears to ve to humiliate and whip up outrage against one of their own regular anti-war commenters ("Benjamin"). Keep throwing those stones at Emmanuel Goldstein, guys! What would Orwell have to say about the Decents? Always a good question, particluarly while Harry’s Place (and Decent Dave’s blog for that matter) is currently dominated by a series of threads whose only purpose appears to ve to humiliate and whip up outrage against one of their own regular anti-war commenters (“Benjamin”). Keep throwing those stones at Emmanuel Goldstein, guys!

]]> By: constablesavage http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/01/pissing-down-our-backs-and-telling-us-its-raining-an-occasional-series/comment-page-1/#comment-185566 constablesavage Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:47:57 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/01/pissing-down-our-backs-and-telling-us-its-raining-an-occasional-series/#comment-185566 24-26 yes, but its the minor work of GO that seems to so fascinate the decents. At about 15 I went through an Orwell phase. It was recognised as the sort of thing you did. But if you hadn't grown out of it before 17 you were reckoned a bit slow Almost wish we could resurrect the old horror to let him loose on some of those who are taking his name in vain Even absent Orwell's ghost someone should point out to Cohen that starting a war, any war, means condemning some of your citizens to death in a cause they may not believe in. Both on left and right there are those who have honourable reservations about that. Mind you the terms 'left' and 'right' in decent discourse have become so removed from what they mean that Cohen may not agree 24-26 yes, but its the minor work of GO that seems to so fascinate the decents.

At about 15 I went through an Orwell phase. It was recognised as the sort of thing you did. But if you hadn’t grown out of it before 17 you were reckoned a bit slow

Almost wish we could resurrect the old horror to let him loose on some of those who are taking his name in vain

Even absent Orwell’s ghost someone should point out to Cohen that starting a war, any war, means condemning some of your citizens to death in a cause they may not believe in. Both on left and right there are those who have honourable reservations about that. Mind you the terms ‘left’ and ‘right’ in decent discourse have become so removed from what they mean that Cohen may not agree

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