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	<title>Comments on: Taxing Citizenship</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/05/taxing-citizenship/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: nick s</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/05/taxing-citizenship/comment-page-1/#comment-186341</link>
		<dc:creator>nick s</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 15:27:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/05/taxing-citizenship/#comment-186341</guid>
		<description>@cala: oh, I hear you. And that doesn&#039;t factor in the additional costs, such as the medical exam. Apparently, it costs $239 to &#039;make determination&#039; of a fiancé(e)&#039;s eligibility. Yeah, right. One justification is that K3 spouses will be waived the I-129F fee, but that doesn&#039;t mean much when the I-130 fee goes up from $190 to $355.

In short, it&#039;s a weighted average increase of 65 per cent per applicant per visa, and the same again for adjustment of status.

On the other hand, it&#039;s not quite as bad as I first thought: the I-485 increase from $385 to $905 seemed atrocious, but that encompasses the various ancillary fees for interim benefits such as advance parole and employment authorisation, which are part of the nickel-and-diming I mentioned. It&#039;s a smart move. So is the move to enhance waivers for domestic violence adjustments and eliminate fees for asylum and trafficking visas.

Still, that&#039;s an increase of over $100 on the average total cost for adjustment of status, and apparently doesn&#039;t include the (increased) charges for biometrics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@cala: oh, I hear you. And that doesn&#8217;t factor in the additional costs, such as the medical exam. Apparently, it costs $239 to &#8216;make determination&#8217; of a fianc&#233;(e)&#8217;s eligibility. Yeah, right. One justification is that K3 spouses will be waived the I-129F fee, but that doesn&#8217;t mean much when the I-130 fee goes up from $190 to $355.</p>

	<p>In short, it&#8217;s a weighted average increase of 65 per cent per applicant per visa, and the same again for adjustment of status.</p>

	<p>On the other hand, it&#8217;s not quite as bad as I first thought: the I-485 increase from $385 to $905 seemed atrocious, but that encompasses the various ancillary fees for interim benefits such as advance parole and employment authorisation, which are part of the nickel-and-diming I mentioned. It&#8217;s a smart move. So is the move to enhance waivers for domestic violence adjustments and eliminate fees for asylum and trafficking visas.</p>

	<p>Still, that&#8217;s an increase of over $100 on the average total cost for adjustment of status, and apparently doesn&#8217;t include the (increased) charges for biometrics.</p>
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		<title>By: Cala</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/05/taxing-citizenship/comment-page-1/#comment-186328</link>
		<dc:creator>Cala</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 14:16:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/05/taxing-citizenship/#comment-186328</guid>
		<description>The problem isn&#039;t that immigrants (we&#039;re talking legal ones, by the way) have to pay for services.  It&#039;s that the fee is going up by $1000 on October 1.  That roughly doubles the current costs for a fiancé visa, for example.  

Take the fee increases for the I-129F, the very first petition that needs to be sent to bring over a fiancé.  In September, the fee was $170.  This fee has gone up incrementally for about the past 20 years, in jumps of around $20.  In October, this is going up to $455, more than the double all of previous increases combined.   That&#039;s the single largest jump in this whole package.

Paying fees is fine.  But this is a ridiculous amount of money for a projected 20% increase in processing time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The problem isn&#8217;t that immigrants (we&#8217;re talking legal ones, by the way) have to pay for services.  It&#8217;s that the fee is going up by $1000 on October 1.  That roughly doubles the current costs for a fianc&#233; visa, for example.</p>

	<p>Take the fee increases for the I-129F, the very first petition that needs to be sent to bring over a fianc&#233;.  In September, the fee was $170.  This fee has gone up incrementally for about the past 20 years, in jumps of around $20.  In October, this is going up to $455, more than the double all of previous increases combined.   That&#8217;s the single largest jump in this whole package.</p>

	<p>Paying fees is fine.  But this is a ridiculous amount of money for a projected 20% increase in processing time.</p>
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		<title>By: nick s</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/05/taxing-citizenship/comment-page-1/#comment-186262</link>
		<dc:creator>nick s</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Feb 2007 20:43:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/05/taxing-citizenship/#comment-186262</guid>
		<description>matt @22: Looking at the Digger&#039;s bio, he arrived in the US in the early 70s, and hung around at least until citizenship in 1985, so I&#039;ve no idea what track he took.

Going back to the principle, it sort of ties into the &#039;graduate tax&#039; as an alternative to tuition fees. It&#039;s a difficult thing to square constitutionally, I&#039;d imagine. Ultimately, Americans who want a better immigration system need to foot the bill, fully, and set the terms. If that means the Know-Nothing faction locks out foreigners, then so be it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>matt @22: Looking at the Digger&#8217;s bio, he arrived in the US in the early 70s, and hung around at least until citizenship in 1985, so I&#8217;ve no idea what track he took.</p>

	<p>Going back to the principle, it sort of ties into the &#8216;graduate tax&#8217; as an alternative to tuition fees. It&#8217;s a difficult thing to square constitutionally, I&#8217;d imagine. Ultimately, Americans who want a better immigration system need to foot the bill, fully, and set the terms. If that means the Know-Nothing faction locks out foreigners, then so be it.</p>
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		<title>By: Tracy W</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/05/taxing-citizenship/comment-page-1/#comment-186256</link>
		<dc:creator>Tracy W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Feb 2007 20:01:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/05/taxing-citizenship/#comment-186256</guid>
		<description>I know very little about the US tax system, but surely you and Rupert Murdoch are being taxed already by the IRS? And probably paying more in absolute terms of your income than some poor migrant working as a cleaner?

(We will ignore any tax avoidance/evasion Rupert Murdoch is pursuing - presumably he could avoid/evade an immmigrant tax as well). 

So why should you guys pay yet another tax on top of that? What costs do you think you are imposing on the USA? 

You have some argument here that you derive great benefit from living in the USA. But benefit alone is not justification for price. I derived great benefit from $50 of antibiotics - they very likely saved my life - according to your logic I should have been charged for them in proportion to the benefit to me, not in proportion to the cost to make and deliver them to me.  If not, why should you be charged more for citizenship of the USA than the costs to the country of you arriving?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I know very little about the US tax system, but surely you and Rupert Murdoch are being taxed already by the <span class="caps">IRS</span>? And probably paying more in absolute terms of your income than some poor migrant working as a cleaner?</p>

	<p>(We will ignore any tax avoidance/evasion Rupert Murdoch is pursuing &#8211; presumably he could avoid/evade an immmigrant tax as well).</p>

	<p>So why should you guys pay yet another tax on top of that? What costs do you think you are imposing on the <span class="caps">USA</span>?</p>

	<p>You have some argument here that you derive great benefit from living in the <span class="caps">USA</span>. But benefit alone is not justification for price. I derived great benefit from $50 of antibiotics &#8211; they very likely saved my life &#8211; according to your logic I should have been charged for them in proportion to the benefit to me, not in proportion to the cost to make and deliver them to me.  If not, why should you be charged more for citizenship of the <span class="caps">USA</span> than the costs to the country of you arriving?</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/05/taxing-citizenship/comment-page-1/#comment-186209</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Feb 2007 14:34:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/05/taxing-citizenship/#comment-186209</guid>
		<description>Well, the E-1 visa would allow Murdoch to come to the US to conduct buisness, but doen&#039;t give the right to become a US citizen (it&#039;s not an immigrant visa) so doesn&#039;t allow for naturalization.  Murdoch is a US citizen (he had to be to own a TV station, a somewhat weird law).  When you are filthy rich there are lots of ways to get things done so he might have had an E-1 and then got a private bill from a senator to allow him to get a permanent resident visa and maybe even to naturalize more quickly.  But, if I had to guess I&#039;d guess he had the &quot;millionaire&#039;s visa&quot; or some other.  (A private bill being sponsored for him wouldn&#039;t surpise me either.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, the E-1 visa would allow Murdoch to come to the US to conduct buisness, but doen&#8217;t give the right to become a US citizen (it&#8217;s not an immigrant visa) so doesn&#8217;t allow for naturalization.  Murdoch is a US citizen (he had to be to own a TV station, a somewhat weird law).  When you are filthy rich there are lots of ways to get things done so he might have had an E-1 and then got a private bill from a senator to allow him to get a permanent resident visa and maybe even to naturalize more quickly.  But, if I had to guess I&#8217;d guess he had the &#8220;millionaire&#8217;s visa&#8221; or some other.  (A private bill being sponsored for him wouldn&#8217;t surpise me either.)</p>
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		<title>By: nick s</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/05/taxing-citizenship/comment-page-1/#comment-186179</link>
		<dc:creator>nick s</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Feb 2007 05:42:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/05/taxing-citizenship/#comment-186179</guid>
		<description>A testament to the Kafka-esque shittiness that is the  USCIS: I wouldn&#039;t inflict it on my worst enemies.

On the Murdoch example, I suspect he got in on the E1 &#039;trader&#039; visa anyway, which would be a &lt;i&gt;de facto&lt;/i&gt; tax if one didn&#039;t have the same clever accountants as the Digger.

But on the principle, the LouDobbses ought to be supporting the idea of paying for a better, less fucked-up legal immigration bureaucracy out of their own taxes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>A testament to the Kafka-esque shittiness that is the  <span class="caps">USCIS</span>: I wouldn&#8217;t inflict it on my worst enemies.</p>

	<p>On the Murdoch example, I suspect he got in on the <span class="caps">E1 </span>&#8216;trader&#8217; visa anyway, which would be a <i>de facto</i> tax if one didn&#8217;t have the same clever accountants as the Digger.</p>

	<p>But on the principle, the LouDobbses ought to be supporting the idea of paying for a better, less fucked-up legal immigration bureaucracy out of their own taxes.</p>
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		<title>By: marcel</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/05/taxing-citizenship/comment-page-1/#comment-186136</link>
		<dc:creator>marcel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Feb 2007 02:14:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/05/taxing-citizenship/#comment-186136</guid>
		<description>engels (#17): How about Niall Ferguson, Dave Beckham or posh spice?  Or, while we&#039;re at it, Charles Mountbatten-Windsor?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>engels (#17): How about Niall Ferguson, Dave Beckham or posh spice?  Or, while we&#8217;re at it, Charles Mountbatten-Windsor?</p>
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		<title>By: djw</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/05/taxing-citizenship/comment-page-1/#comment-186127</link>
		<dc:creator>djw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Feb 2007 01:11:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/05/taxing-citizenship/#comment-186127</guid>
		<description>While we&#039;re at it, there ought to be a high service fee for those who wish to renounce their US citizenship for tax purposes.  This could be based upon income taxes previously paid for some number of years, thus compensating the US for loss of revenue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>While we&#8217;re at it, there ought to be a high service fee for those who wish to renounce their US citizenship for tax purposes.  This could be based upon income taxes previously paid for some number of years, thus compensating the US for loss of revenue.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/05/taxing-citizenship/comment-page-1/#comment-186126</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Feb 2007 01:09:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/05/taxing-citizenship/#comment-186126</guid>
		<description>What might make sense would be a rate of fees based on income or the like, w/ tax returns or something used to establish the rate.  I don&#039;t see why that would be problematic.  And, even with slightly higher tax rates for non-citizens there might be an additional benefit of encouraging increased naturalization.  (I&#039;m not sure I care that much about naturalization rates as such, but many people who write on immigration get worked up about them.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What might make sense would be a rate of fees based on income or the like, w/ tax returns or something used to establish the rate.  I don&#8217;t see why that would be problematic.  And, even with slightly higher tax rates for non-citizens there might be an additional benefit of encouraging increased naturalization.  (I&#8217;m not sure I care that much about naturalization rates as such, but many people who write on immigration get worked up about them.)</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/05/taxing-citizenship/comment-page-1/#comment-186119</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Feb 2007 23:51:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/05/taxing-citizenship/#comment-186119</guid>
		<description>As a British citizen, I should say I&#039;d have been very happy to pay any extra tax which might have been used to expedite Christopher Hitchens&#039; American citizenship application. I would also be more than happy to do the same for Nick Cohen, Norman Geras and the permanent staff of Harry&#039;s Place, should they get the inclination to follow in the Dude&#039;s footsteps.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>As a British citizen, I should say I&#8217;d have been very happy to pay any extra tax which might have been used to expedite Christopher Hitchens&#8217; American citizenship application. I would also be more than happy to do the same for Nick Cohen, Norman Geras and the permanent staff of Harry&#8217;s Place, should they get the inclination to follow in the Dude&#8217;s footsteps.</p>
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		<title>By: nick s</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/05/taxing-citizenship/comment-page-1/#comment-186109</link>
		<dc:creator>nick s</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Feb 2007 22:40:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/05/taxing-citizenship/#comment-186109</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The Times blames Congress for requiring that immigrants pay for the service which serves them, and I’m sure that there is no sensible economic rationale for that.&lt;/i&gt;

The bi-annual &#039;immigration&#039; foo-fah would be amusing if it weren&#039;t such a pain. After all, the people who know most about the USCIS from the sharp end are those who can&#039;t vote, and those who do vote tend to think of the debate strictly in terms of those durned Mexicans.

I emailed Lou Dobbs at the end of last year with a challenge: after the elections, to devote programming space to an examination of the underfunded immigration bureaucracy, and to call for an increase of funding. (I know, I know.)

The worst aspect of USCIS charges are the nickel-and-dime ones. Been fingerprinted for one form? Doesn&#039;t matter: there&#039;s still a mandatory fingerprinting fee (and often a long trip to the facility) for another one. 

By comparison, the process for an American spouse to get a settlement visa for the UK is refreshingly straightforward: one $520 fee and a  turnaround in days rather than months.

&lt;i&gt;I am unaware of any large collection of complaints about how long it takes to get citizenship.&lt;/i&gt;

I believe it depends a great deal upon where you are in the US. Christopher Hitchens isn&#039;t a representative case, but he applied in 2002/3 and may have just taken the oath in recent months.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>The Times blames Congress for requiring that immigrants pay for the service which serves them, and I&#8217;m sure that there is no sensible economic rationale for that.</i></p>

	<p>The bi-annual &#8216;immigration&#8217; foo-fah would be amusing if it weren&#8217;t such a pain. After all, the people who know most about the <span class="caps">USCIS</span> from the sharp end are those who can&#8217;t vote, and those who do vote tend to think of the debate strictly in terms of those durned Mexicans.</p>

	<p>I emailed Lou Dobbs at the end of last year with a challenge: after the elections, to devote programming space to an examination of the underfunded immigration bureaucracy, and to call for an increase of funding. (I know, I know.)</p>

	<p>The worst aspect of <span class="caps">USCIS</span> charges are the nickel-and-dime ones. Been fingerprinted for one form? Doesn&#8217;t matter: there&#8217;s still a mandatory fingerprinting fee (and often a long trip to the facility) for another one.</p>

	<p>By comparison, the process for an American spouse to get a settlement visa for the UK is refreshingly straightforward: one $520 fee and a  turnaround in days rather than months.</p>

	<p><i>I am unaware of any large collection of complaints about how long it takes to get citizenship.</i></p>

	<p>I believe it depends a great deal upon where you are in the US. Christopher Hitchens isn&#8217;t a representative case, but he applied in 2002/3 and may have just taken the oath in recent months.</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/05/taxing-citizenship/comment-page-1/#comment-186107</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Feb 2007 22:36:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/05/taxing-citizenship/#comment-186107</guid>
		<description>Just to clarify: I&#039;m not foreclosing the issue of whether immigration charges are justifiable in the first place, just saying  that IMO the policy in question would be better than the &lt;i&gt;status quo ante&lt;/i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Just to clarify: I&#8217;m not foreclosing the issue of whether immigration charges are justifiable in the first place, just saying  that <span class="caps">IMO</span> the policy in question would be better than the <i>status quo ante</i>.</p>
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		<title>By: Aidan Kehoe</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/05/taxing-citizenship/comment-page-1/#comment-186106</link>
		<dc:creator>Aidan Kehoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Feb 2007 22:28:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/05/taxing-citizenship/#comment-186106</guid>
		<description>Oh, bugger, if something receives the Engels-on-Crooked-Timber endorsement so easily, then there is definitively something askew with it. A shame, because I like the idea. 

Right, so for the US especially, since much of what has made it more advantageous than other Western countries has been based on immigration, shouldn’t that tax be more levied on native-born citizens? It makes sense, when one considers the tax as an advertising outlay that will benefit one&#039;s children more than it wil onself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oh, bugger, if something receives the Engels-on-Crooked-Timber endorsement so easily, then there is definitively something askew with it. A shame, because I like the idea.</p>

	<p>Right, so for the US especially, since much of what has made it more advantageous than other Western countries has been based on immigration, shouldn&#8217;t that tax be more levied on native-born citizens? It makes sense, when one considers the tax as an advertising outlay that will benefit one&#8217;s children more than it wil onself.</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/05/taxing-citizenship/comment-page-1/#comment-186103</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Feb 2007 22:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/05/taxing-citizenship/#comment-186103</guid>
		<description>In that case, it gets the &quot;all clear&quot; from me!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>In that case, it gets the &#8220;all clear&#8221; from me!</p>
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		<title>By: harry b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/05/taxing-citizenship/comment-page-1/#comment-186100</link>
		<dc:creator>harry b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Feb 2007 21:47:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/05/taxing-citizenship/#comment-186100</guid>
		<description>Matt -- sure, I can see why it would be unconstitutional. Though, as I say, there&#039;s effectively a tax anyway, its just levied before they become citizens rather than after.

engels, you&#039;ve got the proposal wrong, and its because my presentation was confusing. The actual proposal ignores the principle of charging people differentially depending on the benefit they get, and simply targets ability to pay. So I envisaged levying the tax on &lt;i&gt;everyone&lt;/i&gt; whose taxable income is above $50K and doubling it for their taxable income above $100K. (Those numbers are plucked out of thin air), regardless of where they came from and what, therefore, its reasonable to assume that they&#039;ve gained. 

I think the original post is confusing and, possibly (but not necessarily) confused. There are two considerations (ability to pay, extent of benefit) and in principle its reasonable to consider both of them. In practice considering the first is easy, and considering the second is difficult and perhaps its obnoxious. The reason I thought you were ok with the policy is because it in fact takes only the first into account, which you seem ok with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Matt&#8212;sure, I can see why it would be unconstitutional. Though, as I say, there&#8217;s effectively a tax anyway, its just levied before they become citizens rather than after.</p>

	<p>engels, you&#8217;ve got the proposal wrong, and its because my presentation was confusing. The actual proposal ignores the principle of charging people differentially depending on the benefit they get, and simply targets ability to pay. So I envisaged levying the tax on <i>everyone</i> whose taxable income is above $50K and doubling it for their taxable income above $100K. (Those numbers are plucked out of thin air), regardless of where they came from and what, therefore, its reasonable to assume that they&#8217;ve gained.</p>

	<p>I think the original post is confusing and, possibly (but not necessarily) confused. There are two considerations (ability to pay, extent of benefit) and in principle its reasonable to consider both of them. In practice considering the first is easy, and considering the second is difficult and perhaps its obnoxious. The reason I thought you were ok with the policy is because it in fact takes only the first into account, which you seem ok with.</p>
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