Comments on: Jumping the Shark http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/08/jumping-the-shark/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Mon, 13 Feb 2012 05:39:10 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: david tiley http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/08/jumping-the-shark/comment-page-1/#comment-186657 david tiley Sun, 11 Feb 2007 05:08:29 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/08/jumping-the-shark/#comment-186657 One of the nice things about that joke is that one of your many readers probably does drive a cab, and may be working to make life better for her children, and nurses scars from the Shah's secret police. I think that is v. nifty. One of the nice things about that joke is that one of your many readers probably does drive a cab, and may be working to make life better for her children, and nurses scars from the Shah’s secret police.

I think that is v. nifty.

]]> By: eszter http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/08/jumping-the-shark/comment-page-1/#comment-186654 eszter Sun, 11 Feb 2007 03:23:38 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/08/jumping-the-shark/#comment-186654 <i>Please do not use cell phone for any purpose while driving.</i> I think it's safe to assume that Henry was not the one driving the cab. Please do not use cell phone for any purpose while driving.

I think it’s safe to assume that Henry was not the one driving the cab.

]]> By: fred lapides http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/08/jumping-the-shark/comment-page-1/#comment-186641 fred lapides Sun, 11 Feb 2007 00:09:43 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/08/jumping-the-shark/#comment-186641 Please do not use cell phone for any purpose while driving. Esp. if you are close to my car Please do not use cell phone for any purpose while driving. Esp. if you are close to my car

]]> By: Seth Finkelstein http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/08/jumping-the-shark/comment-page-1/#comment-186586 Seth Finkelstein Sat, 10 Feb 2007 00:58:41 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/08/jumping-the-shark/#comment-186586 That's the illusion. The YOU-YES-*YOU*. In reality, it counts for a lot less than the statement seems to expect for an answer. I will never reach more than an infinitesimal fraction of the huckster's audience. Observe you're making the argument that persistent extreme inequality doesn't matter as long as there's even arguably the smallest absolute increase. I don't know where you stand on that _per se_, but it's a useful abstraction of the point. That’s the illusion. The YOU-YES-*YOU*.

In reality, it counts for a lot less than the statement seems to expect for an answer.

I will never reach more than an infinitesimal fraction of the huckster’s audience.

Observe you’re making the argument that persistent extreme inequality doesn’t matter as long as there’s even arguably the smallest absolute increase. I don’t know where you stand on that per se, but it’s a useful abstraction of the point.

]]> By: lemuel pitkin http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/08/jumping-the-shark/comment-page-1/#comment-186578 lemuel pitkin Fri, 09 Feb 2007 21:42:46 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/08/jumping-the-shark/#comment-186578 But Seth, if it weren't for blogs I wouldn't be reading <b>you</b>. Doesn't that count for something? But Seth, if it weren’t for blogs I wouldn’t be reading you. Doesn’t that count for something?

]]> By: Seth Finkelstein http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/08/jumping-the-shark/comment-page-1/#comment-186536 Seth Finkelstein Fri, 09 Feb 2007 02:03:48 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/08/jumping-the-shark/#comment-186536 vivian: OK, as long as you don't tell me that the bar is a new era in community and democracy, that what's critical is that never before have we been able to have so many different types of beers, and visiting the bathroom shows how the establishment is a two-way exchange. vivian: OK, as long as you don’t tell me that the bar is a new era in community and democracy, that what’s critical is that never before have we been able to have so many different types of beers, and visiting the bathroom shows how the establishment is a two-way exchange.

]]> By: Laura http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/08/jumping-the-shark/comment-page-1/#comment-186535 Laura Fri, 09 Feb 2007 01:58:17 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/08/jumping-the-shark/#comment-186535 Where's my Crooked Timber t-shirt, Henry? Where’s my Crooked Timber t-shirt, Henry?

]]> By: vivian http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/08/jumping-the-shark/comment-page-1/#comment-186533 vivian Fri, 09 Feb 2007 01:47:34 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/08/jumping-the-shark/#comment-186533 (re sharks, a bigger optimist than me would suggest that advertising an old-media-pundit blog on a bus shows simply that they don't get it, not that they've colonized and corrupted blogdom. But I figure they can probably do both at once, grump.) (re sharks, a bigger optimist than me would suggest that advertising an old-media-pundit blog on a bus shows simply that they don’t get it, not that they’ve colonized and corrupted blogdom. But I figure they can probably do both at once, grump.)

]]> By: vivian http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/08/jumping-the-shark/comment-page-1/#comment-186532 vivian Fri, 09 Feb 2007 01:43:30 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/08/jumping-the-shark/#comment-186532 I think Seth is demonstrating that however much the web changes, there will always be wise curmudgeons sitting at the end of the bar, grumping at the conversation, but happily a part of the conversation nonetheless. Even if outside the CT bar all is plastic and stale. So pass the peanuts please. I think Seth is demonstrating that however much the web changes, there will always be wise curmudgeons sitting at the end of the bar, grumping at the conversation, but happily a part of the conversation nonetheless. Even if outside the CT bar all is plastic and stale. So pass the peanuts please.

]]> By: Seth Finkelstein http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/08/jumping-the-shark/comment-page-1/#comment-186529 Seth Finkelstein Fri, 09 Feb 2007 01:16:21 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/08/jumping-the-shark/#comment-186529 The problem with statements like "a far freer exchange of information ..." is that they are practically *defined* to be true by the speaker. There is a common way the argument proceeds, where the evangelist will pick one very weak meaning for the statement, and say a trivial or near-trivial meaning is enough to establish it's true. I've yet to figure out how to counter this effectively. Asking them to lay out criteria where they will admit they're wrong, doesn't seem to work. The problem with statements like “a far freer exchange of information …” is that they are practically defined to be true by the speaker. There is a common way the argument proceeds, where the evangelist will pick one very weak meaning for the statement, and say a trivial or near-trivial meaning is enough to establish it’s true.

I’ve yet to figure out how to counter this effectively. Asking them to lay out criteria where they will admit they’re wrong, doesn’t seem to work.

]]> By: lemuel pitkin http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/08/jumping-the-shark/comment-page-1/#comment-186526 lemuel pitkin Fri, 09 Feb 2007 00:04:07 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/08/jumping-the-shark/#comment-186526 So maynard, wasn't Roussaeu right? It seems to me that on a personal level, people are far elss constrained than they were 200-odd eyars ago, and as a result are more tolerant, intelligent, creative, even happy. Look at how gender roles have changed, the acceptable range of sexuality, the proportion of people who are literate, bilingual, etc., the limited but still quite real progress in the fight against racism and bigotry. You're far too cynical -- the view that humans are perfectible may have been oversold, but it's much better supported than the view that human nature is fixed. (I mean, the sex stuff especially. Compare today to 30 or 40 years ago and tell me that (your gloss of) Rousseau wasn't right.) Applied to blog medium, yes, it's more commercial than it used to be, and so the concentrations of power and resources taht apply across our society are becoming mroe influential in the blog world too. But it remains the case that there is still -- and I expect will continue to be -- a far freer exchange of information and broader range of views in the blog world than in Old Media. No? So maynard, wasn’t Roussaeu right? It seems to me that on a personal level, people are far elss constrained than they were 200-odd eyars ago, and as a result are more tolerant, intelligent, creative, even happy. Look at how gender roles have changed, the acceptable range of sexuality, the proportion of people who are literate, bilingual, etc., the limited but still quite real progress in the fight against racism and bigotry. You’re far too cynical—the view that humans are perfectible may have been oversold, but it’s much better supported than the view that human nature is fixed.

(I mean, the sex stuff especially. Compare today to 30 or 40 years ago and tell me that (your gloss of) Rousseau wasn’t right.)

Applied to blog medium, yes, it’s more commercial than it used to be, and so the concentrations of power and resources taht apply across our society are becoming mroe influential in the blog world too. But it remains the case that there is still—and I expect will continue to be—a far freer exchange of information and broader range of views in the blog world than in Old Media. No?

]]> By: matt http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/08/jumping-the-shark/comment-page-1/#comment-186524 matt Thu, 08 Feb 2007 23:15:03 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/08/jumping-the-shark/#comment-186524 I'm on a short time frame so can't write much now (but I'd direct you to Chris's very good book on Rousseau for more) but, if you read Rousseau (rather than wikipedia- this seems to be another cases where it's more misleading than good) you'll see that he's pretty deeply divided about whether men can be impoved or not at this point- read the discourses on inequality and the arts and sciences. It's not at all clear that he thinks the programs of The Social Contract can be brought about now or not. But, I must run and can't write more. Really, though, Sharon has the right point here. I’m on a short time frame so can’t write much now (but I’d direct you to Chris’s very good book on Rousseau for more) but, if you read Rousseau (rather than wikipedia- this seems to be another cases where it’s more misleading than good) you’ll see that he’s pretty deeply divided about whether men can be impoved or not at this point- read the discourses on inequality and the arts and sciences. It’s not at all clear that he thinks the programs of The Social Contract can be brought about now or not. But, I must run and can’t write more. Really, though, Sharon has the right point here.

]]> By: sharon http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/08/jumping-the-shark/comment-page-1/#comment-186523 sharon Thu, 08 Feb 2007 22:46:57 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/08/jumping-the-shark/#comment-186523 Shit, there's Rousseau and all sorts of clever stuff, and I thought Henry was just making a throwaway comment about how much how quickly blogging has changed since c.2004. Silly me. Shit, there’s Rousseau and all sorts of clever stuff, and I thought Henry was just making a throwaway comment about how much how quickly blogging has changed since c.2004. Silly me.

]]> By: Seth Finkelstein http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/08/jumping-the-shark/comment-page-1/#comment-186517 Seth Finkelstein Thu, 08 Feb 2007 21:35:32 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/08/jumping-the-shark/#comment-186517 Yes, per maynard/#1, the word you're looking for is "colonization". Doesn't this make blog evangelism look downright silly at best, and snake-oil salesmanship at worst? Yes, per maynard/#1, the word you’re looking for is “colonization”.

Doesn’t this make blog evangelism look downright silly at best, and snake-oil salesmanship at worst?

]]> By: Maynard Handley http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/08/jumping-the-shark/comment-page-1/#comment-186516 Maynard Handley Thu, 08 Feb 2007 21:33:45 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/02/08/jumping-the-shark/#comment-186516 Please clarify, Matt. Just to be sure I read the wikipedia article on Rousseau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Jacques_Rousseau) since I'm sure we all agree that that's *the* definitive source :-) Along with a bunch of mystical hoo-haa, I didn't see anything that I felt actually changed my earlier impression of what he believed. For example we have * statements about the perfectibility of humans, or * "Rousseau was bitterly opposed to the idea that the people should exercise sovereignty via a representative assembly. Rather, they should make the laws directly." or * (quotation from a letter by Rousseau “You say quite correctly that it is impossible to produce an Emile. But I cannot believe that you take the book that carries this name for a true treatise on education. It is rather a philosophical work on this principle advanced by the author in other writings that man <i>is naturally good</i>”. If I have an incorrect impression of Rousseau, I'd love to be corrected; but what I read in wikipedia confirms my earlier impression. Please clarify, Matt.

Just to be sure I read the wikipedia article on Rousseau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Jacques_Rousseau) since I’m sure we all agree that that’s the definitive source :-)

Along with a bunch of mystical hoo-haa, I didn’t see anything that I felt actually changed my earlier impression of what he believed. For example we have

  • statements about the perfectibility of humans, or
  • “Rousseau was bitterly opposed to the idea that the people should exercise sovereignty via a representative assembly. Rather, they should make the laws directly.” or
  • (quotation from a letter by Rousseau “You say quite correctly that it is impossible to produce an Emile. But I cannot believe that you take the book that carries this name for a true treatise on education. It is rather a philosophical work on this principle advanced by the author in other writings that man is naturally good”.

If I have an incorrect impression of Rousseau, I’d love to be corrected; but what I read in wikipedia confirms my earlier impression.

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